The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[Veracitas]

I was in Corea to study at Seoul National University for the semester. Definitely worth the time...

But anyway, good luck on your work, there (from what i've seen from this thread alone, seems like u got a ton of ideas alreayd, lol)....hope all works out for the best, in any case.

[Q Classic]

the korean extraciv pack has been updated.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=38340

[ron_neptune]

I am a Singaporean, and i can tell you that the most significant influence on Chinese-dominated countries can only come from China, Japan and Korea.

Just look at the current Pop culture in East Asia. Everyone is looking towards Korea. Korea is currently the "in" thing. In East Asia, we face "bombardment" of Korean Pop Culture. From music to drama, Koreans are replacing Japaneses as the "in" thing at this point of time.

Despite that, Korean culture have been so significant that if you are a player of Age of Empires II, you will know that Korean is a civilisation under the game and the one of the unique unit is the Turtle Ship.

[romelus]

this has gotta be the longest and most emotionally charged thread i've ever read, i read most of it anyway. there have been many issues that i agree or disagree with, and i'm not going to address those details. the arguments were interesting to read until the name calling started between yin and mark. to stay with the topic, here's what i think about korea in civ3

1. whether or not it's influenced heavily by china is a moot point. however korea's culture or influence on the world is not sufficient to warrant a top 16 civ of all time honor. by the same token zulus and iroquois, and even the aztecs are bad choices too. but you have to have someone to fill certain geographical areas, i'm sure the designers felt the same way

korea's military influence on the world throughout is basically nil. i say this in the broadest sense - you can argue they were brave people who fought off countless invasions, but that's no military achievement. like it or not, conquest is, and should be, one of the considering factors.

culture wise, simply building the printing press is not in itself a worldclass achievement, even though it is an impressive accomplishment. to put it simply, they built the mousetrap, but gutenberg built the better one, and sold it to the world. korea did not have wonder class monuments or buildings. and depite all the arguing about language, it's doesn't affect the cultural importance of korea - just about every civilization had a language, borrowed or not.

2. now we go to the subject of whether or not korea should replace china or japan as an east asian civ. chine definitely should not be replaced. japan neither. japan's influence, especially in the last century, superceded just about every asian country (even china). you have the obvious economical power, which nullifies the korean economy arguement. and like it or not, japan's militarization and ww2 involvement qualify it as a major influential power.

the mass murder of civilians and other war crimes do not detract from the fact japan held a lot of sway in the war, and changed the fate of many asian countries, plus australia, plus the US. civlization 3 is not a game about morals or the right thing to do - it is an amoral game that attempts to recreate the rise and fall of civilizations without passing judgements. thus japan should be included, not despite of, but because of ww2. i agree with another poster who said that if japan wasn't involved in ww2, it should not have been one of the 16 top civs in the game - economics alone is not enough, and historical japanese culture is unique but not awe inspiring. war crimes therefore should not prevent japan from being included. korea on the other hand has never had the kind of impact that japan had in the previous century.


because of these reasons, i don't think korea should be one of the 16 top civs, and i don't think it should take japan's slot. would it make it into the top 32? probably, but just barely. i wouldn't mind trying out the turtle boat unit though. they can make it a a2d3 caravel in a secure transport and light combat role.

[Q Classic]

culture wise, simply building the printing press is not in itself a worldclass achievement, even though it is an impressive accomplishment. to put it simply, they built the mousetrap, but gutenberg built the better one, and sold it to the world.

no, gutenberg was in a location where they had a market for that stuff. koreans had it, but they didn't exactly have that crazed notion of white man's burden and seek to propagate it throughout the entire world.

but you have to have someone to fill certain geographical areas, i'm sure the designers felt the same way

yes, well, your point? it's quite valid... but that doesn't detract from the very reasonable argument that certain civs, no matter their location, should be included.

i wouldn't mind trying out the turtle boat unit though. they can make it a a2d3 caravel in a secure transport and light combat role.

the turtle ship wasn't a transport. it was a warship. you didn't read the research links, did you?

ah, well, it doesn't matter.
nobody listens to the koreans anyway.
if they nuked us all, who would care?

united artists, because then bond20 wouldn't have a place to start from.

[ron_neptune]

1. whether or not it's influenced heavily by china is a moot point. however korea's culture or influence on the world is not sufficient to warrant a top 16 civ of all time honor. by the same token zulus and iroquois, and even the aztecs are bad choices too. but you have to have someone to fill certain geographical areas, i'm sure the designers felt the same way

then perhaps you could tell us your choice...

korea's military influence on the world throughout is basically nil. i say this in the broadest sense - you can argue they were brave people who fought off countless invasions, but that's no military achievement. like it or not, conquest is, and should be, one of the considering factors.

the fact they were able to resist japanese attacks for a long period of time in history showed that even though they are miltarily weaker...they can protect themselves in times of war.

korea did not have wonder class monuments or buildings. and depite all the arguing about language, it's doesn't affect the cultural importance of korea - just about every civilization had a language, borrowed or not.

can you name me some world-class monuments and buildings? too many of the world ancient monuments are destroyed...and some civ doesn't even have such stuff and were in the game.

2. now we go to the subject of whether or not korea should replace china or japan as an east asian civ. chine definitely should not be replaced. japan neither. japan's influence, especially in the last century, superceded just about every asian country (even china). you have the obvious economical power, which nullifies the korean economy arguement. and like it or not, japan's militarization and ww2 involvement qualify it as a major influential power.

the mass murder of civilians and other war crimes do not detract from the fact japan held a lot of sway in the war, and changed the fate of many asian countries, plus australia, plus the US. civlization 3 is not a game about morals or the right thing to do - it is an amoral game that attempts to recreate the rise and fall of civilizations without passing judgements. thus japan should be included, not despite of, but because of ww2. i agree with another poster who said that if japan wasn't involved in ww2, it should not have been one of the 16 top civs in the game - economics alone is not enough, and historical japanese culture is unique but not awe inspiring. war crimes therefore should not prevent japan from being included. korea on the other hand has never had the kind of impact that japan had in the previous century.

if you wish to talk about economics, i can tell you that Japan is suffering from it's worst recession since the burst of the bubble economy in the early 1990s...economical-wise, it may be the world's 2nd largest economy...but it's just an empty shell now...if miltary is so important to civ3, why don't they add the Vikings and the Mongols? why did they add the diplomatic, cultural and space race victory? Japan's impact on East Asian can be seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2. war crimes should not prevent japan from being included. the refusal to admit war crimes should.

because of these reasons, i don't think korea should be one of the 16 top civs, and i don't think it should take japan's slot. would it make it into the top 32? probably, but just barely. i wouldn't mind trying out the turtle boat unit though. they can make it a a2d3 caravel in a secure transport and light combat role.

apparently, you have never read about the historical importance of the turtle ship...it prevented Japanese invasion of Korea for a long period of time. You keep saying that korea shouldn't be in the top 16 civ...but you have made no evidence or your opinion of the top 16 civ.

[Q Classic]

korea did not have wonder class monuments or buildings.

of course not.
there's no such thing as the world's oldest standing astronomical observatory in east asia, erected by queen sondok, now. even though it clearly still exists and was used to develop a calendar and keep time since who knows when.

and of course the fact that korea has the world's longest continuing weather record is completely irrelevant. nobody cares about weather, it's completely useless anyway, and the fact that the koreans have this record in written form dating back to god knows when shouldn't be considered at all.

you've converted me, romelus. where's your handle from, anyway?

[romelus]

no, gutenberg was in a location where they had a market for that stuff. koreans had it, but they didn't exactly have that crazed notion of white man's burden and seek to propagate it throughout the entire world.

then... too bad korea didn't have the "white man" burden. and the world can thank gutenburg for having the "white man" burden

yes, well, your point? it's quite valid... but that doesn't detract from the very reasonable argument that certain civs, no matter their location, should be included.

that is a reasonable argument, i don't think we disagree here. korea just isn't one of those "must haves" like egypt or china. if korea was in a less congested spot like south america, the designers probably would have included it (like they did with zulus and iroquois), but it's not

the turtle ship wasn't a transport. it was a warship. you didn't read the research links, did you?

in fact i did. i was talking from a game play perspective. i was proposing that it take the caravel spot. it's too strong for a galley, not a big transport like a galleon, not an ocean-going warship like a frigate (it's man powered), and it's not a real steam powered ironclad. if you can show me a better slot, please feel free.

ah, well, it doesn't matter.
nobody listens to the koreans anyway.

your attitude is probably why no one listens. then again, you despise the "white man" way...

then perhaps you could tell us your choice...

certainly. i would put in the place of the zulus and iroquois, mongols and spanish. mongol for military brilliance (for a relatively short time, but they had half of the civilized world under control). spanish for its colonial "achievements", columbus rediscovering america had a lot to do with the spanish. it was on par with the english, french, and dutch as the four most prominant exploration and colonization powers. not to mention they wiped out the incas and aztecs (the aztecs already in the game and all). in fact the vikings and spanish were in civilization 2 i think

the fact they were able to resist japanese attacks for a long period of time in history showed that even though they are miltarily weaker...they can protect themselves in times of war.

like i said, being able to defend itself is not exactly a military achievement. likewise i wouldn't say china had any significant militray achievement like the romans or mongols.

can you name me some world-class monuments and buildings? too many of the world ancient monuments are destroyed...and some civ doesn't even have such stuff and were in the game.

click the civilpedia icon in the game, look under great wonders

being destoyed does nothing to tarnish the status of great wonders

yes, you don't have to have a great wonder to be in the game, but that's another strike against you. like the fact having no military achievement is one strike against you.

if you wish to talk about economics, i can tell you that Japan is suffering from it's worst recession since the burst of the bubble economy in the early 1990s...economical-wise, it may be the world's 2nd largest economy...but it's just an empty shell now...

aye, japan is in bad shape right now, just like korea was in bad shape in the asia crisis. big deal.

if miltary is so important to civ3, why don't they add the Vikings and the Mongols? why did they add the diplomatic, cultural and space race victory? Japan's impact on East Asian can be seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2. war crimes should not prevent japan from being included. the refusal to admit war crimes should.

the vikings were in civ2, and i wouldn't be surprised if vikings and mongols are in the expansion pack. military is not every thing in civ3, but it's one of the qualifiers, and i'm just saying that korea doesn't qualify in this category. japan's refusal to acknowledge its warcrimes has nothing to do with this "amoral" game, civ3 is not trying to make a political or moral statement, it's just a game made for gamers. if it tried to be 100% PC, you wouldn't even have things like razing cities, having captured slave workers and such.

apparently, you have never read about the historical importance of the turtle ship...it prevented Japanese invasion of Korea for a long period of time. You keep saying that korea shouldn't be in the top 16 civ...but you have made no evidence or your opinion of the top 16 civ.

apparently, i have. it prevented an invasion, the end.

and i don't think having me spend time to assess each and every one of the top 16 civs in the game is fair, nor necessary. why don't you state why korea is superior to each and every one of the top 16 civs? (excluding the zulus and iroquois, whom i said don't deserve the honors)

of course not.
there's no such thing as the world's oldest standing astronomical observatory in east asia, erected by queen sondok, now. even though it clearly still exists and was used to develop a calendar and keep time since who knows when.

and of course the fact that korea has the world's longest continuing weather record is completely irrelevant. nobody cares about weather, it's completely useless anyway, and the fact that the koreans have this record in written form dating back to god knows when shouldn't be considered at all.

those are not wonder class monuments or achievements. if you have to bring out minor achievements, there are thousands in the history of mankind. it's really nice korea has them, but so did many other civilizations. i think that patriotism or enthusiasm aside, you agree with me.

you've converted me, romelus. where's your handle from, anyway?

my nick is from a song called romelus 3. it has nothing to do with romulus the supposed founder of rome.

if there's anything else to argue about, go nuts.

[yin26]

Read my book when it comes out. I'll post a message then.

[ron_neptune]

i would not bother to argue since it's a waste of time...we are at different perspective and i don't wish to convert you to mine...but definitely neither the mongols nor the spanish deserve to be in civ3...the mongols were strong only because of the leaders from Genghis Khan to Kublai Khan...after their reign...the mongol empire simply disappeared...the spanish may have contributed in "colonial" achievements...but i would prefer if you play colonization...this is a too limited area to decide their importance to the world...

[thinkingamer]

Originally posted by romelus


1. then... too bad korea didn't have the "white man" burden. and the world can thank gutenburg for having the "white man" burden



2. that is a reasonable argument, i don't think we disagree here. korea just isn't one of those "must haves" like egypt or china. if korea was in a less congested spot like south america, the designers probably would have included it (like they did with zulus and iroquois), but it's not



3.in fact i did. i was talking from a game play perspective. i was proposing that it take the caravel spot. it's too strong for a galley, not a big transport like a galleon, not an ocean-going warship like a frigate (it's man powered), and it's not a real steam powered ironclad. if you can show me a better slot, please feel free.



4. your attitude is probably why no one listens. then again, you despise the "white man" way...



5. certainly. i would put in the place of the zulus and iroquois, mongols and spanish. mongol for military brilliance (for a relatively short time, but they had half of the civilized world under control). spanish for its colonial "achievements", columbus rediscovering america had a lot to do with the spanish. it was on par with the english, french, and dutch as the four most prominant exploration and colonization powers. not to mention they wiped out the incas and aztecs (the aztecs already in the game and all). in fact the vikings and spanish were in civilization 2 i think



6. like i said, being able to defend itself is not exactly a military achievement. likewise i wouldn't say china had any significant militray achievement like the romans or mongols.



click the civilpedia icon in the game, look under great wonders

being destoyed does nothing to tarnish the status of great wonders

yes, you don't have to have a great wonder to be in the game, but that's another strike against you. like the fact having no military achievement is one strike against you.



aye, japan is in bad shape right now, just like korea was in bad shape in the asia crisis. big deal.



7. the vikings were in civ2, and i wouldn't be surprised if vikings and mongols are in the expansion pack. military is not every thing in civ3, but it's one of the qualifiers, and i'm just saying that korea doesn't qualify in this category. japan's refusal to acknowledge its warcrimes has nothing to do with this "amoral" game, civ3 is not trying to make a political or moral statement, it's just a game made for gamers. if it tried to be 100% PC, you wouldn't even have things like razing cities, having captured slave workers and such.



8. apparently, i have. it prevented an invasion, the end.

and i don't think having me spend time to assess each and every one of the top 16 civs in the game is fair, nor necessary. why don't you state why korea is superior to each and every one of the top 16 civs? (excluding the zulus and iroquois, whom i said don't deserve the honors)



9. those are not wonder class monuments or achievements. if you have to bring out minor achievements, there are thousands in the history of mankind. it's really nice korea has them, but so did many other civilizations. i think that patriotism or enthusiasm aside, you agree with me.



my nick is from a song called romelus 3. it has nothing to do with romulus the supposed founder of rome.

10. if there's anything else to argue about, go nuts.

1. Q cubed only tried to say that in east asia did not have extensive trade as europe (with its craze for colonization going on).

2. Yes i agree Korea is not a must be like China or Egypt, but it could replace Japan, specially if u consider that a huge percentage of Japanese blood (at least Half) is Korean, and how much Korea influenced Japan's culture.

3. Caravel?!?! Turtle ship was invented at about after 100 years after British made man-o-war. Did u really read about the Turtle ships?

4. Yes, many people don't listen to Koreans in its historical perspective and this sometimes make us mad.....but this is not compleaty our fault.

5. That's (ur civ choices) ur opinion and i respect it.

6. I don't care about military achivements; yes its a factor that makes a civ great but then Koreans never had pride for its "military achivements" , but rather had pride for its Peaceful, and advanced culture.
And Chinese DID have many military achivements: in Han dynasty they conquered Mongolia, Korea, SouthEast Asia, and Tibet (basicaly all their neighbors).

7. Again, Korea is not supposed to qualify as military civ. And neptune only tried to say that Japan's impact on East Asian is seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2.

8. Korea stopped the largest sea invasion before Normandy, twice. Who cares, right?
In my opinion Korea civ is at least as important as Japanese civ in this world history.

9. world's oldest standing astronomical observatory in east asia.......world's longest continuing weather record ...........minor achivements...............

10. People like u don't listen to Koreans.

[ron_neptune]

thinkingamer said everything i wanted but did not say. thanks.

[romelus]

Originally posted by thinkingamer



1. Q cubed only tried to say that in east asia did not have extensive trade as europe (with its craze for colonization going on).

ok, ignore china next door, and the silk roads. even china doesn't know much about the korean press. if your attitude was "i don't advertise", you succeeded.

2. Yes i agree Korea is not a must be like China or Egypt, but it could replace Japan, specially if u consider that a huge percentage of Japanese blood (at least Half) is Korean, and how much Korea influenced Japan's culture.

at least half of japapnese is korean - your point being? i'd say that koreans are pretty well represented in the game then

yes influence, why don't you talk about how much china influenced korea. using the same rationale, japan is not worthy because of korean influence, korea is not worthy because of chinese influence (i realize this is silly, but that's basically what you said)

3. Caravel?!?! Turtle ship was invented at about after 100 years after British made man-o-war. Did u really read about the Turtle ships?

then do as i requested - show me a better slot in the game, which unit would you replace?

4. Yes, many people don't listen to Koreans in its historical perspective and this sometimes make us mad.....but this is not compleaty our fault.

true, many nations have had their achievements buried through time

5. That's (ur civ choices) ur opinion and i respect it.

thank you

6. I don't care about military achivements; yes its a factor that makes a civ great but then Koreans never had pride for its "military achivements" , but rather had pride for its Peaceful, and advanced culture.
And Chinese DID have many military achivements: in Han dynasty they conquered Mongolia, Korea, SouthEast Asia, and Tibet (basicaly all their neighbors).

then we agree, korea has no military achievements, whether you consider them important or not

the chinese did not have significant military campaigns like the romans and mongols did. they took their time in conquering neighbours over the years. they have more military results than the koreans though.

7. Again, Korea is not supposed to qualify as military civ. And neptune only tried to say that Japan's impact on East Asian is seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2.

i know what he said, and i know you read what i said

8. Korea stopped the largest sea invasion before Normandy, twice. Who cares, right?
In my opinion Korea civ is at least as important as Japanese civ in this world history.

did the turtle boat influence anything outside of korea? no. that's why people don't even know much about it. did the imperial japanese navy change the world? you bet. that's ONE of the reasons they are in the game

9. world's oldest standing astronomical observatory in east asia.......world's longest continuing weather record ...........minor achivements...............

the incas had an understanding of astronomy that baffles modern scientists; the vikings discovered north america way before columbus officially did... see my point? you may have the oldest observatory in east asis, but isn't there a reason that copernicus' observatory is a wonder in the game, and yours isn't? like i said, those are fine achievements, but they don't stand a chance against great wonders like the pyramids or the great wall.

10. People like u don't listen to Koreans.

actually, the very fact i even bothered to open this thread, then stayed up for hours reading in fascination, and then spent time typing down what i think, then replying to your message show that i am in fact, at this very moment, listening to what you are saying. just because i don't agree with you 100%, doesn't mean i don't listen to you

refer to my earlier message, your attitude may be why people don't listen to you.

more?

[siredgar]

Romelus,

I agree with you entirely. Your viewpoint is well-balanced and entirely reasonable.

I also applaud you for taking an interest in Korea. It deserves more attention, don’t you think?

However, I would like to expand on the ideas that you have discussed to give you a better understanding from another perspective:

1. Korea’s influence on the world is minimal.

Indeed, while the Koreans made some amazing achievements in the arts, science, philosophy, and religion, they did not spread these ideas outside of their own civilization. For a long time, the Koreans were even more arrogant than the Chinese in their sense of self-importance and self-sufficiency. As a result, for most of their history, they only dealt with the Chinese and ignored others, including incoming Westerners. Not surprisingly, that is primarily why Korea suffered a similar fate to that of China.

Regardless, I believe what Yin was trying to say is that Korea had a remarkable civilization that was far ahead of its time. The achievements in of themselves should be noteworthy and often surprise many people who are unfamiliar with Korea’s “hidden” history. I don’t know if the Koreans should be in the top 16, but they probably have more of a right to than the Mongols, Aztecs, or Zulu in many ways. In fact, I don’t think they should be that far out of the top 16—probably right behind the Spanish, close to the Portuguese and Dutch, but ahead of the Vikings.

2. Korea should not replace Japan.

You're right, I don't think it should and I don't think that's what Yin was advocating either. If I'm not mistaken, he said that Korean civilization was/is equally, if not more, impressive than Japan's, but he also acknowledged that it will not get the recognition it deserves from most people and that includes game developers at Firaxis. I will attempt to explain the reasons for this later.

Anyhow, the Koreans and the Japanese are highly related, both genetically and culturally. That is why there are constant comparisons. In my opinion, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to say that they essentially belong to a single civilization, which could include the Mongols to a certain extent, too. Contrary to popular perception (i.e., that of the “masses”, particularly regarding the Koreans), they are quite apart from the Chinese even though they both received a great deal of influence from them.

For a long time, Korea was a very powerful, independent “nation”. At one point in early history, Chinese and Koreans kingdoms heavily competed for territory in what is now Manchuria (land that is roughly the size of Western Europe). At that time, the inhabitants of Japan were still relatively “primitive” in many ways and had not even made the first steps toward what we would call a civilization.

In fact, Korea had an undeniably influential impact on Japan. There is significant evidence that much of early Japan comes from distinctly Korean, not Chinese, origins. Korean migrants provided much of Japanese stock. Some of this blended with Polynesian bloodlines that had arrived in the southern part of the islands, others with existing inhabitants on the main islands and to some extent with the Ainu in the north. They also brought rice farming and other rudiments of civilized life to Japan.

Example:

“By about 400 b.c. Korean farmers migrated across the Sea of Japan (called the Eastern Sea by Koreans) to southern Japan. This was the beginning of farming villages in Japan and much of the modern Japanese population is descended from these immigrants. The Japanese and Korean people are really close cousins.”
http://www.pbs.org/hiddenkorea/history.htm

Later, the Koreans sent artisans and priests to the Japanese to introduce advances in the arts, science, philosophy, and religion that they not only learned from the Chinese, but had also developed indigenously, too. Indeed, even much of what was derived from the Chinese had a distinctly Korean nature to it. Thus, Korea helped Japan makes its first steps toward “civilization”. The Japanese greatly preserved much of what they learned at this time to this day. In fact, some historians have argued that a great deal of what we consider traditional Japanese culture today is really derived directly from ancient Korea.

On the other hand, sadly to say, much of Korean civilization has been destroyed... at the hands of the Japanese. Situated on the mainland, the Koreans were forced to fight many wars to preserve their independence against the increasingly powerful Chinese (and later the emergent Mongols). The Japanese, separated by the seas, were not. They began developing a strong civilization they could now call distinctly their own, away from the troubles of the mainland. This relative isolation (and the lack of significant resources) later allowed them to quickly adopt recent Western advances in technology and quietly grow in power while avoiding foreign encroachment.

The rest is history.

Thus, until recently, a great part of Japanese history has been comprised of taking from others, especially the Chinese and Koreans, and only returning the favor with war. This is especially the case in its relations with Korea. In the eyes of many Korean people, not only did this “backward” upstart emerge as a much more powerful civilization than theirs, but it attempted to annihilate their own existence as a civilization. Many Koreans are frustrated because so many in the West admire Japanese culture AND power today and yet do not understand where much of it derives from.

That is why I would say that there is so much Korean resentment towards the Japanese.

P.S. Yes, Koreans (and fans of Korea) can be very emotional and passionate about what they believe in. Sometimes, to those unfamiliar with Koreans, I like to describe them as “the Italians of Asia”. I’ve also heard them being compared to the Irish. However, I do not think it is really fair to the Koreans to use either of these terms as they have a much longer history.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by romelus


at least half of japapnese is korean - your point being? i'd say that koreans are pretty well represented in the game then

LOL.

I have to say that part of the reason why I said Koreans are often overlooked is because of their oppression by the Japanese.

[romelus]

siredgar, i must say i'm happy to see someone who doesn't get defensive at the first sight of disagreement. all arguments and civ3 stuff aside, i have been impressed by the new knowledge (to me) presented here in this thread. i have new found respect for korea, and its ancient achievements were certainly eye opening. i have also found out that koreans are exceptionally patriotic , but from reading your brief description of how koreans have come to hate the japanese so much, i guess that's excusable. i just hope every korean can look at his/her nation objectively once a while, and adapt strategies that have worked so well for other civilizations (ie. instead of beating down gutenberg for the "white man burden" or the japanese for how they have taken advantage of foreign knowledge and help, maybe koreans can start doing more promotion of korea yourself, this thread was a great start

and trust me, people do listen.

[thinkingamer]

Originally posted by romelus


1. ok, ignore china next door, and the silk roads. even china doesn't know much about the korean press. if your attitude was "i don't advertise", you succeeded.



2. at least half of japapnese is korean - your point being? i'd say that koreans are pretty well represented in the game then

yes influence, why don't you talk about how much china influenced korea. using the same rationale, japan is not worthy because of korean influence, korea is not worthy because of chinese influence (i realize this is silly, but that's basically what you said)



3. then do as i requested - show me a better slot in the game, which unit would you replace?



4. true, many nations have had their achievements buried through time



5. thank you



6. then we agree, korea has no military achievements, whether you consider them important or not

the chinese did not have significant military campaigns like the romans and mongols did. they took their time in conquering neighbours over the years. they have more military results than the koreans though.



7. i know what he said, and i know you read what i said



8. did the turtle boat influence anything outside of korea? no. that's why people don't even know much about it. did the imperial japanese navy change the world? you bet. that's ONE of the reasons they are in the game



9. the incas had an understanding of astronomy that baffles modern scientists; the vikings discovered north america way before columbus officially did... see my point? you may have the oldest observatory in east asis, but isn't there a reason that copernicus' observatory is a wonder in the game, and yours isn't? like i said, those are fine achievements, but they don't stand a chance against great wonders like the pyramids or the great wall.



10. actually, the very fact i even bothered to open this thread, then stayed up for hours reading in fascination, and then spent time typing down what i think, then replying to your message show that i am in fact, at this very moment, listening to what you are saying. just because i don't agree with you 100%, doesn't mean i don't listen to you

refer to my earlier message, your attitude may be why people don't listen to you.

more?

1. What's the point of advertising printing presss? sooner or later other nations will be able to make their own priting press. That why Guettengerg got bankrupted in the end.

2. I said Korea COULD replace Japan because it was Japan's source of influence. Did i ever said Japan was unworthy?

3. Duh, another version of frigate. (i mean, knight had 3 different version)

4. Yes, what u said is true, but the problem is that the people wont recognize those achivements that Korea had. (that make Koreans mad)

5. You're welcome

6. Did i ever said that Korea had no military achivement??? Please quit changing words. like I stated about 4-5 pages ago, Korea r the only SAME people in this world that managed to survive over 3000 years in the SAME land (expect maybe Arabs, but then who would want to conquer desert land before the discovery of petroleum?). And certainly being able to defend against 1,130,000 Sui dynasty army is certainly not a military achivement. Surely expanding northward significantly against Kitans (the ones who took North half of Song dynasty) is certainly not a military achivement...........

And I think u r only thinking Song and Ming dynasty, but back at Chou, Han, and Tang they had at least as much conquests as Romans.

7. Neptune only said a historical fact and u simply dismissed it saying that "it doesn't matter in a game's perspective" Please answer the post properly.

8. Yes, the peacefull defenders are unrecognized, and the iron fist conquerors are recognized...... I mean there are better ways to get recognized (not just throught conquest)

9. Most civilization had astronomical achivements that many scientists cannot explain. The native Americans discovered America earlier than the Vikings (Viking gets the credit only because they r Europeans?)

Yes if u compare mass structures such as pyramid and great wall Korean monuments doesn't have any chance. Yet for what it did and what Korean achived is certainly not a minor achivement as u stated before.

10. I meant not listening as "taking with little importance"

And what's wrong with my attitude? ur attitude has more problems. (remember the "go nuts?")

[yin26]

First, even though a number of us disagree on a number of points in this thread, I am pleased beyond all reasonable expectations that discussions about Korea and its place in the Civ3/History/Modernity have go on this long. I am particularly happy when people come here and say things like "I learned something." That is so cool! Which brings up the next point:

maybe koreans can start doing more promotion of korea yourself, this thread was a great start

This is precisely the reason I am publishing a book along these lines. I am already half way done! Well, half way done with the rough draft, which means I'm about 5% done overall.

The fact of the matter is that from about 16th century onward, Korea made some colossal mistakes in government. Its own infighting and the greed of the 'elite' essentially crippled its own people. This was not new, of course, as the Shilla Dynasty died for the same reasons then the Koryo. The causes were always the same: Prominent families competing for the throne while the landowners grossly overtaxed the peasantry and giving less and less of the revenue to lame duck government. Yet in the case of Shilla and Koryo, somebody finally stood up, staged a coup, and brought in land reforms, etc.

But toward the end of the Yi Dynasty (1392-1910), Korea's habit of running to the edge of political ruin simply couldn't stand the arrival of the West, which -- thanks to the Japanese Meji Restoration from 1867 -- saw Japan opening to the West first and gaining a huge advantage in the delicate balance of Far East Asia. This ultimately led to Japan's controlling the peninsula and ending the Yi Dynasty.

Thus (finally getting back to the topic): Koreans themselves find it rather painful to talk about their own history, and for obvious reasons. And while there is more than enough to brag about looking at Korea's achievements of the past 50 years (keeping in mind that Korea was ONE OF THE WORLD'S POOREST NATIONS at the end of the Korean War and now has the 12 or 13th largest economy! In 50 years!!!), Koreans know only too well the lessons of not being humble. It was lack of humility in many ways that brought the Yi Dynasty down, so I can't really fault Koreans for tending not to overplay their accomplishments now.

Another dynamic here is a simple but frustrating one: When a Korean brags about Korea, it looks like blind patriotism. But when I, a White Guy, do it ... even Koreans themselves seem to take what I say as somehow more objective and therefore more valid. To be honest, this drives me crazy. I *NEVER* wanted to take the role of The White Guy Preaching The Merits of Such And Such Culture.

And yet, life has pulled me in that direction. A number of Korean-Americans in particular have urged me to tell the story and give the facts that their parents either don't share with them or, when they do, are ignored out of a sense that Mom and Dad are just inflating the truth because, as we all know, Korea has nothing to brag about, right? Right?

No, very wrong. Thus, I am writing my book. I have already had a president of a university here tell me after reading the rough draft that there is no book of its kind on Korea and that he is quite excited to see it make a difference. My book takes a much-needed "not overly academic (as in 5 inch thick, horribly detailed tome) nor overly commercial (as in Shop Korea!)" approach.

It's the kind of book just stuffed with modern and historical facts of interest. It has an historical summary that, in my opinion, is quite fun reading. I do the highlights in a sort of dramatic way, the drama leading to Korea's annexation by Japan and the rise back among the top nations of the world. I all am doing some cultural stuff (culture quizzes, for example) and tips on learning the language.

In other words, I think it will be precisely the kind of book you'd want to pick up and a few hours later have quite an insight to this fascinating country.

[romelus]

Originally posted by thinkingamer


1. What's the point of advertising printing presss? sooner or later other nations will be able to make their own priting press. That why Guettengerg got bankrupted in the end.

something fundamental here is faulty. i hate playing the school teacher role, but "when you have a nice bag of candy, share". and don't blame the other kid who decided to share his candy, and became more popular than you.

2. I said Korea COULD replace Japan because it was Japan's source of influence. Did i ever said Japan was unworthy?

no you did not, you implied that korea was worthier than japan (you know, so much worthier that it can replace japan?) because of cultural influence, and i'm saying that's a bad argument for you, because korea is not the originator of much of the influences. i mean you would surely get defensive when i say that china taught korea most of its culture, and you would probably argue that korea modified much of what it learned so those teachings became uniquely korean. well the same can be said for japan, it learned a lot from korea, but it also incorporated them into japanese culture. and the whole point is, cultural influence is a moot point (like i said in my very first post) i wouldn't disqualify korea on it, and i wouldn't disqualify japan on it.

3. Duh, another version of frigate. (i mean, knight had 3 different version)

that would be fine if the turtle boat was capable of crossing the ocean with ease, like the frigates with their sails. but it's not, it's a rowed boat. it's a fine coastal defense boat, making it closer to caravel, capable of transversing coastal and sea squares, but not ocean squares.

4. Yes, what u said is true, but the problem is that the people wont recognize those achivements that Korea had. (that make Koreans mad)

i can't speak for others, but if you think i'm not recognizing korean achievements you are wrong. i recognize them, i am even fascinated by them, but i feel they are not significant enough to deserve a spot in the top 16 civs of all time.

6. Did i ever said that Korea had no military achivement??? Please quit changing words. like I stated about 4-5 pages ago, Korea r the only SAME people in this world that managed to survive over 3000 years in the SAME land (expect maybe Arabs, but then who would want to conquer desert land before the discovery of petroleum?). And certainly being able to defend against 1,130,000 Sui dynasty army is certainly not a military achivement. Surely expanding northward significantly against Kitans (the ones who took North half of Song dynasty) is certainly not a military achivement...........

so you are saying they do have military achievements, let's see:

barely surviving, that's like saying that turtles are the most powerful animal in the world because they live the longest. besides, korea was conquered several times - if you define surviving as merely living through conquests and occupation, we can make the same case for china, england, japan, united states... hell there are too many to count. i guess just about everybody except the jews could claim having survived in the same land. that is no achievement.

defending against chinese aggression. i'll only say this: being able to block some punches does not make you a boxing champ. and i think japan knocked korea out cold.

you won some battles against the kitan barbarians, that's great. maybe you got some nice techs from their goody huts? seriously, that's nothing significant. i mean, you lost manchuria to china in the first place, now that's some major territory.

And I think u r only thinking Song and Ming dynasty, but back at Chou, Han, and Tang they had at least as much conquests as Romans.

china took out some barbarians during chou, expanded its territory during han (then gradually lost control again), and had several campaigns during tang, but those were not as successful as the romans' and mongols'.

7. Neptune only said a historical fact and u simply dismissed it saying that "it doesn't matter in a game's perspective" Please answer the post properly.

ok, ok, i'll explain this too:
"i know what he said" - this is in response to "Again, Korea is not supposed to qualify as military civ. And neptune only tried to say that Japan's impact on East Asian is seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2."

"and i know you read what i said " - this is referring to my previous response, ie. "japan's refusal to acknowledge its warcrimes has nothing to do with this "amoral" game, civ3 is not trying to make a political or moral statement, it's just a game made for gamers. if it tried to be 100% PC, you wouldn't even have things like razing cities, having captured slave workers and such."

try reading sometimes, you'll get the hang of it eventually.

8. Yes, the peacefull defenders are unrecognized, and the iron fist conquerors are recognized...... I mean there are better ways to get recognized (not just throught conquest)

of course, the other big factor is culture. and i've made numerous reasons why korea's culture, while nice, is not top 16 quality. i think i'm just rehashing what i've already said several times now.

9. Most civilization had astronomical achivements that many scientists cannot explain. The native Americans discovered America earlier than the Vikings (Viking gets the credit only because they r Europeans?)

incas stand out as the enigma. we have begun to figure out how egyptians constructed the pyramids, but we still have no idea how the incas possessed such fine knowledge of astronomy - they were very advanced despite having no preceding civilization to teach them the foundation - they just started out advanced! or it seems that way, i'd say that's very unique, yet it's still one of the minor achievements

the native americans walked crossed a land bridge during the ice age. the vikings sailed across the atlantic before anyone else. big difference there.

Yes if u compare mass structures such as pyramid and great wall Korean monuments doesn't have any chance. Yet for what it did and what Korean achived is certainly not a minor achivement as u stated before.

but they are. that class of achievements is much more common than the great wonders. for two examples, refer back to the incas and vikings. if korea was the first civilization to sail across the pacific to discover america and i called it a minor achievement, you would be jumping up and down in protest right now

yet you have to look at them objectively, of course i know patriotism is hard to overcome...

10. I meant not listening as "taking with little importance"

And what's wrong with my attitude? ur attitude has more problems. (remember the "go nuts?")

i never said korea was insignificant - it's just not as great enough to be a top 16, or to displace japan. that's what my whole post was about. it's surprising other people picked this up perfectly yet you missed it entirely.

"go nuts" is a friendly term, as in
"hey johnny, can i play on your computer?"
"sure man, go nuts."

if you STILL feel like typing some more, go nuts.

[siredgar]

Yes, Yin, I thought you'd be happy with how your thread has progressed. It has truly helped people get a better understanding of Korea. I've been very happy to contribute to the discussion, too.

Indeed, I think we have fought the good fight. It IS an uphill battle against the conventional perception that "Korea is really a part of China and Japan is better anyhow". To reveal the "hidden history" of Korea is quite a surprise to many people. The fact that much of it is "hidden" due to the actions of a neighbor makes it even more tragic. I find it so hard to be "pro-Korea" without being "anti-Japan" because of this. That is why I am hoping that one day the two countries will have better relations.

I went to the bookstore yesterday and it saddened me to see only a handful of books (probably three) on Korea, while there were about 50 books on Japan. I don't expect there to be as many books on Korea, but wouldn't it be nice to find at least a dozen or so on this endearing country?

[Q Classic]

clearly, siredgar, korea isn't as important as japan.

otherwise, our culture would have created a whole slew of books, say, maybe seven or eight, rather than the paltry five we have.

maybe it's our fault for not giving away our printing press, i suppose, maybe because we felt that there was no great need to print bibles? damn, if only we'd been christian back then. it's a moot point anyway, unlike germany, korea was not exactly in the same near-open-boundaried trading zone that gutenberg was in.

and i think japan knocked korea out cold.

which is why japan lost scores of soldiers to the korean resistance, no?
yeah, the germans knocked france out cold too. twice.
if you look at it that way, anyway.

you won some battles against the kitan barbarians, that's great. maybe you got some nice techs from their goody huts?

seriously, must you be so condescending? must you be so insulting?

of course, the other big factor is culture. and i've made numerous reasons why korea's culture, while nice, is not top 16 quality. i think i'm just rehashing what i've already said several times now.

actually, you haven't discussed any of korea's culture.
you've only talked about the printing press, some scientific discoveries of which you don't even mention, and i figure, don't know too much about, and on military matters.
hell, if that sums up culture, half of the ethnicities that show up in civ games don't count.

ah, well, screw it.

there are no convincing arguments that korea should be in any game whatsoever.
they are a tribe without a history, without any merit, and should be destroyed at the first availible chance.
maybe bush will wipe a third of them out when he gets down to fighting terrorism again.
let's see them block that punch, eh?

[romelus]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

maybe it's our fault for not giving away our printing press, i suppose, maybe because we felt that there was no great need to print bibles? damn, if only we'd been christian back then. it's a moot point anyway, unlike germany, korea was not exactly in the same near-open-boundaried trading zone that gutenberg was in.

must you make an excuse for every failure? i mean, now it's your religion's fault...

which is why japan lost scores of soldiers to the korean resistance, no?
yeah, the germans knocked france out cold too. twice.
if you look at it that way, anyway.

of course japan lost lots of men, what matters is that it occupied korea in the end. yeah the french got pretty messed up, maybe that's why they are not "militaristic" in the game, and germany is.

[quoteseriously, must you be so condescending? must you be so insulting?[/quote]

i knew it would trip you up. i really couldn't help it, especially after being accused of never listening to koreans twice in a row.

actually, you haven't discussed any of korea's culture.
you've only talked about the printing press, some scientific discoveries of which you don't even mention, and i figure, don't know too much about, and on military matters.
hell, if that sums up culture, half of the ethnicities that show up in civ games don't count.

i talked about every korean cultural achievement you threw my way: oldest observatory in east asia, longest weather record... and i gave you the inca and viking examples to illustrate the difference between major and minor culture achievements (which by the way you haven't been able to refute). and i am not obligated to go do more research on other korean achievements, i'm not debating on your side. and no that doesn't sum up culture, as in "whatever examples you've been giving me don't sum up a case for superior korean culture". you just defeated your own argument.

ah, well, screw it.

there are no convincing arguments that korea should be in any game whatsoever.
they are a tribe without a history, without any merit, and should be destroyed at the first availible chance.

if that's your way of conceding defeat, i accept victory.

maybe bush will wipe a third of them out when he gets down to fighting terrorism again.
let's see them block that punch, eh?

you keep talking about the US nuking korea, maybe i need to get a subscription for anti-prozac so i can be as depressing as you.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by ron_neptune
I am a Singaporean, and i can tell you that the most significant influence on Chinese-dominated countries can only come from China, Japan and Korea.

Just look at the current Pop culture in East Asia. Everyone is looking towards Korea. Korea is currently the "in" thing. In East Asia, we face "bombardment" of Korean Pop Culture. From music to drama, Koreans are replacing Japaneses as the "in" thing at this point of time.

Despite that, Korean culture have been so significant that if you are a player of Age of Empires II, you will know that Korean is a civilisation under the game and the one of the unique unit is the Turtle Ship.

I didn't really believe what you posted until I read this article from CNN.com, "Korea Fever Sweeps Asia's Pop Culture":

http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiap....ap/index.html

I have indeed noticed some aspects of Korean culture becoming very "in" lately. For example, I read an article in the Village Voice a few months ago about how K-pop is so much "cooler" than J-pop. And it seems everyone loves Korean cuisine right now. A lot of Korean films have been showing in NYC these days, too. Also, as Yin said, Korean studies is very up-and-coming and many schools are expanding their programs.

[yin26]

Ah ha, my evil plan to take over the world by first situating myself ahead of the "Corea Curve" is working beautifully. Up next: New Zealand!

[thinkingamer]

Hi im back.

wow, romelus has been messing with people again.......well before i start i'd like to write a passage from a book

"The history of any country, presented as the history of a family, conceals fierce conflicts of interest between conquerors and conquered, masters and slaves, capitalists and workers, dominations and dominated in race and sex. And in such a world of conflict, a world of victims and executioners, it is the job of thinking people, as Albert Camus suggested, not be on the side of the executioners."

-howard zinn "A People's History of the US"

Originally posted by romelus


1. something fundamental here is faulty. i hate playing the school teacher role, but "when you have a nice bag of candy, share". and don't blame the other kid who decided to share his candy, and became more popular than you.

1. It doesn't matter (for me at least) if Guettenberg is more popular or not, but the point is, he became known by inventing a invention that already has been invented.

2. no you did not, you implied that korea was worthier than japan (you know, so much worthier that it can replace japan?) because of cultural influence, and i'm saying that's a bad argument for you, because korea is not the originator of much of the influences. i mean you would surely get defensive when i say that china taught korea most of its culture, and you would probably argue that korea modified much of what it learned so those teachings became uniquely korean. well the same can be said for japan, it learned a lot from korea, but it also incorporated them into japanese culture. and the whole point is, cultural influence is a moot point (like i said in my very first post) i wouldn't disqualify korea on it, and i wouldn't disqualify japan on it.

2. Sorry if i have been defensive to u, but u started being offensive, and your point that modification is not valid is wrong in my opinion.

The Greeks learned from Persians and Egyptians math, astronomy and modified (or improved, added, etc.) it. It was then made (the knowledge) uniquely Greek (and since Greek modification is so vastly distinct, the Greeks are no less important than Persians and Egyptians).

Now im not saying that Koreans modification (from Chinese knowledge) is as vastly distinct as Greek's modification from P and E. But still it was distinct enough to be a korean one. That makes China more an important civ than Korea.

And if Koreans taught Japanese, why Korea would not be at least as important as Japanese?

If u say that Japanese learned Chinese advances indirectly through Korea, can u say that the Europe learned Persian and Egyptian advances indirectly through Greeks? No! Europe learned Greek advances. Period.


3. that would be fine if the turtle boat was capable of crossing the ocean with ease, like the frigates with their sails. but it's not, it's a rowed boat. it's a fine coastal defense boat, making it closer to caravel, capable of transversing coastal and sea squares, but not ocean squares.

3. Ok, Ok, u really want me to be more specific, heh?:
How about? Turtle ship: attack 3, defence 4, movement 3, bombard 3, range 1, rate of fire 2? Of course with the caravel's hadicap.

4.i can't speak for others, but if you think i'm not recognizing korean achievements you are wrong. i recognize them, i am even fascinated by them, but i feel they are not significant enough to deserve a spot in the top 16 civs of all time.

4. Thank you for recognizing (but i thought u didn't coz of ur attitude), and it's your opinion that Korean should not be in the top 16. But i was referring the people in general. A normal European or American dont know much about Korea.



5. so you are saying they do have military achievements, let's see:

barely surviving, that's like saying that turtles are the most powerful animal in the world because they live the longest. besides, korea was conquered several times - if you define surviving as merely living through conquests and occupation, we can make the same case for china, england, japan, united states... hell there are too many to count. i guess just about everybody except the jews could claim having survived in the same land. that is no achievement.

defending against chinese aggression. i'll only say this: being able to block some punches does not make you a boxing champ. and i think japan knocked korea out cold.

you won some battles against the kitan barbarians, that's great. maybe you got some nice techs from their goody huts? seriously, that's nothing significant. i mean, you lost manchuria to china in the first place, now that's some major territory.



china took out some barbarians during chou, expanded its territory during han (then gradually lost control again), and had several campaigns during tang, but those were not as successful as the romans' and mongols'.

5. Yes, Korea has been conquered, but who has not been conquered ever? (well, not US but its not even 300 years old).

Sure Romans had many great military achivement, but did they even survive? (now dont tell me that Italians r Romans) Did their territory expansion last longer that 500 years? i dont think so. Koreans controlled Manchuria for about 2000 years, (i dont believe any 4000bc or older history).

Im not trying to say that Korea was the strongest nation in history; actually its very far from being one. But many great nations didn't manage to survive. By the way tell me any other nation, the SAME people in this world that managed to survive over 3000 years in the SAME land (except few exception such as Arabs [who wants desert?] Chinese [survived...... with 300 additional languages, etc.])

Did u know that the Huns were kicked out by Chinese? And when Romans were threatened by the Huns they allied with their chief enemy to fight against them! And even though Romans barely won against Huns, pretty soon they became prey of the Germanic trives. Therefore its hard for me to take that the Chinese had less military achivemet than Rome.

6.ok, ok, i'll explain this too:
"i know what he said" - this is in response to "Again, Korea is not supposed to qualify as military civ. And neptune only tried to say that Japan's impact on East Asian is seen through it's refusal to acknowledge its involvement in war crimes during ww2."

"and i know you read what i said " - this is referring to my previous response, ie. "japan's refusal to acknowledge its warcrimes has nothing to do with this "amoral" game, civ3 is not trying to make a political or moral statement, it's just a game made for gamers. if it tried to be 100% PC, you wouldn't even have things like razing cities, having captured slave workers and such."

try reading sometimes, you'll get the hang of it eventually.

6. of course u know what i read what u said, so? r u admitting that u should not have understate a fact by changing it to a different subject?


7. of course, the other big factor is culture. and i've made numerous reasons why korea's culture, while nice, is not top 16 quality. i think i'm just rehashing what i've already said several times now.

7. again That's ur opinion



8. incas stand out as the enigma. we have begun to figure out how egyptians constructed the pyramids, but we still have no idea how the incas possessed such fine knowledge of astronomy - they were very advanced despite having no preceding civilization to teach them the foundation - they just started out advanced! or it seems that way, i'd say that's very unique, yet it's still one of the minor achievements

the native americans walked crossed a land bridge during the ice age. the vikings sailed across the atlantic before anyone else. big difference there.



but they are. that class of achievements is much more common than the great wonders. for two examples, refer back to the incas and vikings. if korea was the first civilization to sail across the pacific to discover america and i called it a minor achievement, you would be jumping up and down in protest right now

yet you have to look at them objectively, of course i know patriotism is hard to overcome...

8. In Silla's period even the Tang were surprized by Silla's astronomical achivements. Babylonian, Egyptian, Indian, Chinese, Greek, all had incredible astronomical achivements, and i doubt that the Incas' Astronomy is more advanced than those civs (unless if u can refer me a site that tells that Inca had more advanced astronomy than those civs that i just referred)

And the distance from Greenland to North America is not that far. Even Columbus discovery of America was Luck; cuz, before the trip Columbus miscalculated that Asia was closer than the other people said, and America just had to be in the middle of the way to Asia.

And finally, wheather the Korean Achivements are major or minor is only a matter of opinion, and while i think is not a major Achivement i also i think is not a minor (and of course IF u meant by 7 major achivements and 100,000 minor achivement the korean achivements are among the minors, but i think thats a foolish way to qualify achivements).


9. i never said korea was insignificant - it's just not as great enough to be a top 16, or to displace japan. that's what my whole post was about. it's surprising other people picked this up perfectly yet you missed it entirely.

"go nuts" is a friendly term, as in
"hey johnny, can i play on your computer?"
"sure man, go nuts."

if you STILL feel like typing some more, go nuts.

9. Thats ur opinon also. In my opinion Korea is equally important as Japan in the history of the World. And considering how much u r praising Korea, i thought u did not care. But since u do. thank u.

[siredgar]

Japan has only had influence outside of its immediate territory for about 100 years. Besides that, they invaded Korea in the 16th century (to give the samurai something to do), but even then they had to withdraw shortly thereafter. That is after razing the country's temples, raping its women, and kidnapping artisans back to Japan.

In fact, it is only after U.S. occupation from World War II that Japan has done anything but violence and war. That's because it is prohibited from military aggression by its constitution. It is the only country in the world that has this restriction imposed on it. In that sense, many scholars consider Japan not a "normal" country.

Japan has only had a positive impact on the world in the past 30 years through active participation in the U.N., cultural export (films, comic books, cuisine, fashion, etc), and technological "innovation" (mostly adopted from U.S. inventors, however).

Similarly, Korea has had minimal influence on the outside world until the past 10 years or so, I would say. But it has had a longer relationship with China and the rest of the civilized world long before Japan ever began to step out of its islands. Indeed, Korean cultural achievements certainly rival that of the Japanese and far surpass them prior to Korean decline beginning in the 16th century and coinciding with the Japanese invasion.

[yin26]

I wanted to add one quick example of the early Korean military: When Sui China attacked Koguryo in the 7th century, a detachment of 300,000 Chinese soldiers were sent in as a split off of a larger 1,000,000 force.

2,750 came back alive. The loss for China was so devestating, in fact, that the Sui fell and T'ang had to fill the void.

Now if you want to just call stuff like that Korea's 'barely surviving,' feel free, but you're kidding yourself.

[siredgar]

Anyhow, despite Korea's early militaristic campaigns in Manchuria, it has been a very peaceful country (for over 1,000 years). That's why it's very frustrating to see how most Americans only think of the Korean War or worse yet, MASH when they hear the word "Korea". Regardless, it shouldn't be criticized for just defending itself and maintaining peaceful relations with its neighbors, especially China.

[siredgar]

Just bumping this so I can keep it as a point of reference.

[Ribannah]

Excellent idea, Sir Edgar.
This is a must-read for everyone on this forum.