The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[Japher]

My post look odd, and got cut off at the beginning where I say:

I was once in Philly on buisness. I was having a beer in this bar watching a baseball game came in. We drank and talk than he said some thing really mean. He said, "You American don't have any culture that your own."


Then my post should of began...

[King of Rasslin]

All Asians do look the same, almost. I mean, telling the difference between a Japanese and a Korean is like telling the difference between a Frenchie and a German. They are all about the same, man! Japan, Taiwan, and the Phillipines were settled by the Chinese. India, however, is a unique group. Pakistan is a mix of India and Arabs. Laos is the same as Vietnam. It's just another commie country as far as I'm concerned. I think you just made up some of the other races. (WTF is Bengali!!!)

Really, all Africans look the same, All Europeans look the same, and almost all Asians look the same, with maybe minor differences.

As for the C or K issue, C and K have distinct sounds. They should be able to translate their sounds to ours without difficulty because we have had contact with them for hundreds of years. Besides, no one knows if the Japanese changed the spelling or not. Just take it as it is: a misspelling.

[Q Classic]

>eyetwitch<
>eyetwitch<

Japan, Taiwan, and the Phillipines were settled by the Chinese

wrong. recent genetic evidence suggests that the ancestors of the modern japanese came from mongolian, korean, polynesian, and ainu stock, with almost no chinese influence. indeed, the genetic evidence suggests that most of the genetic stock is korean.
furthermore, genetic studies have shown that the korean people, although sharing physical appearances not unlike those of the chinese, are more likely to have a common ancestry with the mongols rather than the chinese.
the philippines are of polynesian ancestry, not chinese. they have rather flimsy cultural links with the chinese; not only is their language (tagalog) in a different group, just looking at the basic things of their culture shows that the relations are not very close.

Pakistan is a mix of India and Arabs.

mm... why don't you go tell a pakistani this? i'm sure he'll have a few choice words for you. just because the pakistani are muslim does not mean that they have arabic blood.

Laos is the same as Vietnam.

Hungary is the same as Romania (both of them just former commie countries as far as i'm concerned.) Greece is the same as Turkey (both of them just part of the same old Ottoman Empire, as far as i'm concerned).
Alabama is the same as Georgia (both of them have lots of rural redneck folk, as far as i'm concerned). Ireland is the same as England (both of them have some of that wierd celtic thing going on, as far as i'm concerned).

I think you just made up some of the other races. (WTF is Bengali!!!)

you obviously have no knowledge about this region of the world... why do you insist on continuing to make such incorrect generalizations?

As for the C or K issue, C and K have distinct sounds.

computer.
console.
Kentucky.
tank.
bank.
fact.
so much for distinct sounds. maybe that argument needs a bit of work.

They should be able to translate their sounds to ours without difficulty because we have had contact with them for hundreds of years.

actually, the United States has had contact with korea and japan for only a little over 125 to 150 years. the western world has had only face to face contact with east asia, for at most, 200 to 300, and for most of that, it's been with china, since korea and japan were both exceedingly isolationist and refused to speak with westerners in almost all cases.

Besides, no one knows if the Japanese changed the spelling or not.

they haven't. their romanization remains constant. it is Nippon, and only rarely will you find the other form of Nihon. this latter romanization is not widely accepted, and thus, irrelevant.

Just take it as it is: a misspelling.

i never said it was a misspelling. i think their decision to romanize their language as such, even though it may look wrong to you, is perfectly acceptable, and thus not misspelled.

======

Basically, I must be a bigot or I might just be uninformed. I consider myself to be well schooled, yet educated? If a certain culture cannot scream loud enough to fall on my deaf ears, than I am not going to include them as a dominant civilization(mainly because I can't see that they exist), and K/Corea I must say is a lot quieter than Japan or China, and not to say this is a bad thing.

right. except, to my ears, in the united states, the dutch culture hasn't exactly made their presence known. i will have to say until i do more reasearch, the turks, ottomans, and arabs seem to me to be pretty much the same. and that's the same for the aztecs, incas, and mayans. what have the maori done? and how are the portuguese any different from the spaniards? weren't they at different times or another one kingdom?

the problem with history taught in the western world is that it's often so euro-centric and western-based that all the african and asian civilizations are short changed, compressed into one or two flimsy chapters; and native cultures are almost always written in a condescending manner. i'm not surprised you haven't heard of korean culture. but can you honestly say you know much about chinese and japanese culture? just because you've heard of them and not korea does not mean that the koreans got in because of fan base.
indeed, although firaxis may have hopes of seeling PTW well in korea, it's highly unlikely.
why? koreans aren't as into TBS strategy as they are into two genres of gaming:
Massively Multiplayer/Online,
and Real-Time Strategy.
PTW is not real-time, not really, and is not Massively Multiplayer. it may sell decently, but not enough to make firaxis the bundle it might hope just by including the koreans.

[yin26]

Yes, TBS does *NOT* sell well here in Korea. They like games that can be played competitively in relatively short amounts of time ... and on T.V. Yes, they run T.V. programs here with two guys playing an RTS or FIFA 2002, etc.

They even have commentators discussing the various moves, etc.

Civ3, let's just say, is somewhat 'slower.'

[King of Rasslin]

Or, maybe the Koreans can't handle such an intellectual game as Civ 3.

J/K... Civ 3 is so dumbed down, my 8 year old sister could play it. I guess it does get a little boring to crush the pitiful AI. I hope PtW and multiplayer will improve the game. It really is a step above Civ 2 but I like Alpha Centauri more.

I actually think it will do very well in Korea. They will make multiplayer more interesting, and with more scenarios. Although Koreans take video games way, way too seriously. I actually might like Korea!

I have been taught very little about Korea and Africa, Asia, etc other than that they exist. Genetic evidence is very faulty. I mean, white people supposedly settled America based on that Kenniwick man or whatever. But everyone knows that Asians settled America. However... The Eygyptians might have settled America because of pyramids here being very similar to the Eygptian ones. I think the Iroquios should be half Eygptians and half Koreans/Mongols. I guess Civ 3 should be based on CULTURE, not race, because the Iroquios are really just Asians.

And culture wise, Korea is so similar to Japan and China. That is what hurts its validity of being a whole new civ. I think Portugal would be a good idea because we need more naval UUs.

[yin26]

"I have been taught very little about Korea."

"And culture wise, Korea is so similar to Japan and China."

Nuff said. LOL!

[Ribannah]

The Iroquois have Siberian nomads as their ancestors. However, because of many adoptions, there is a considerable percentage of white blood.

With some probability Africans (not Egyptians though) made it to meso-America, while there is evidence that the Chinese may have reached Mexico / California. Both mixed with the local population (Olmec and pre-Aztec), descendents of an earlier wave of Siberians / Tunguz.

But in the eyes of the Sasquatch, all these humans look pretty much the same.

Btw, if for marketing reasons, Firaxis should definitely put the Dutch in one of the expansions. Which they should do anyway because of their importance. (Q Cubed: the Dutch are one of the largest, of not the largest, foreign investors in the US; look for Dutch (cultural) presence in eg banking, insurance, supermarkets, airlines, and of course trade.)

[Veracitas]

haha, when i took the ALL LOOK SAME test, I got like a FIVE!! man, i had NO CLUE...

[King of Rasslin]

HA! I got 6

Just proves that I know more about Asians than the average person...

Although that test really is bull****. I am white and of European descent but I can't tell the difference between French and German people. That is why culture counts, not race! However, Chinese culture and Japanese culture simply overwhelm Korean...

I'm sorry, just face the truth! I read that China was once 3 kingdoms once, and Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, etc. War runs deep within Japanese and Chinese culture. And Civ 3 is a war game! You don't turtle anymore here, this is different from Civ 2! That is why the peaceful "builders" of Korea have less importance than the warlike Japanese or Chinese.

Every civ currently in Civ 3 has had many major WARS. The Korean war had a lot of influence by Russia and China, so I wouldn't count that as a major war.

[Q Classic]

Or, maybe the Koreans can't handle such an intellectual game as Civ 3.

KoR, comments such as those are what trolls do.

as yin pointed out:

"I have been taught very little about Korea."

"And culture wise, Korea is so similar to Japan and China."

i'm going to ask a favor of you, KoR. not too big of one, but one nonetheless.
why don't you go back and read this thread from the beginning, and then go to some of the links, like [url=www.korealore.com]? even though such self-guided reading won't get you a degree in east asian studies, it will go a long way in clarifying a lot of the errors in belief you insist on perpetuating.

Ribannah:

(...One of the largest, of not the largest, foreign investors in the US; look for Dutch (cultural) presence in eg banking, insurance, supermarkets, airlines, and of course trade.)

i'm well aware of the contributions the dutch have made to world culture; i was merely using them as an example to point out how many cultures, including the koreans, are ignored simply because they don't seem to be 'distinct' enough. most native american cultures don't seem 'distinct' enough, nor do most asian or african cultures... but almost all european cultures, apparently, are.
in all fairness, i think the major thing the average american person thinks of when they think of the netherlands is not a cultural history of trade, relative tolerance in religion (there was that little tiff with catholic spain, so...), and beautiful art, but of wooden shoes, windmills, and legal marijuana.
in truth, i wouldn't mind if the dutch were in; in fact, i'd like them in. but i don't think that the koreans should be taken out instead.

I read that China was once 3 kingdoms once, and Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, etc.

korea was once 3 kingdoms (paekche, shilla, koguryo). koguryo fought with the chinese on several occasions. shilla conquered the other two in a series of wars.
japan invaded korea twice, and korea fought back, developing the ironclad ship against hideyoshi. the mongols invaded korea, and after a brutal fight, conquered the koreans briefly (so were the chinese, only the chinese suffered under mongol rule a lot longer).
war runs deep in korean culture, too. of course, you'd never read that in a regular history textbook; asian wars before the twentieth century were not 'important' enough, i suppose.

Although that test really is bull****

yes, i suppose. the test was there to make the point that the average american can't really tell the difference.
i myself got 11. not a great score, but 11/18 is still enough to be fairly accurate on calls.
the difference between germans and french, in my experience, is all in the face, particularly the shape of the nose and its placement.
(this is excluding the fact that germans march towards paris holding rifles, and the french march towards paris with their hands in the air. )

[siredgar]

I don't know why all of you are even trying to engage this i***t in a discussion.

[Q Classic]

hey, be nice. he's a georgian.

[thinkingamer]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Or, maybe the Koreans can't handle such an intellectual game as Civ 3.

J/K... Civ 3 is so dumbed down, my 8 year old sister could play it. I guess it does get a little boring to crush the pitiful AI. I hope PtW and multiplayer will improve the game. It really is a step above Civ 2 but I like Alpha Centauri more.

I was a hardcore civ2 and SMAC player, but i realized that it was not worth 5% of my life. Corean students has a very tight schedule in their schools; no hardcore Corean civ player can be in the top 20% in their schools. Even I, a hardcore Civ player, think that this game takes much more time than it should be.

Civ is not an intellectual game. RTS is not considered 100% strategy because mouse speed is essential. Same goes to Civ because a large part of this game involves luck.

And finally, did u know that Go (Baduk in Corean) is the only game that (arguably) surpasses Chess strategy wise? Coreans r the World champions of go like Russians r the champions of Chess. I guess Coreans handles intellectual games more than u think......

[King of Rasslin]

Go is not more intellectual than chess! Go is nothing compared to chess? I haven't even heard of go!

[Q Classic]

the concept of go/paduk is to eliminate the other player's pieces by capturing them. using a grid 19 by 19 in size, pieces are placed in such a manner as to try to surround the other player's pieces, and thereby, eliminate them.

much easier than chess to learn.

much harder than chess to master.

on related notes, the korean version of chess is also a little more fun, and a little harder. janggi's not bad.

[Schee]

KoR :

Go is not more intellectual than chess! Go is nothing compared to chess? I haven't even heard of go!

It only confirms you are idiotic.

I am white and of European descent but I can't tell the difference between French and German people

I am European and I can tell the difference.



Et en passant, Korea s'écrit Corée en Français...

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
the concept of go/paduk is to eliminate the other player's pieces by capturing them.

The main goal is to control more enclosed territory than your opponent at the end of the game. Captured stones count, too, but that's a by-product of the war for land. Since the game starts with an empty board, go has much more in common with Civ than chess does.

much easier than chess to learn.
much harder than chess to master.

Well, both games are very easy to learn and hard to master.
While the Go board is larger, the different chess pieces allow for more tactical concepts. It's hard to say which game is tougher to the human mind.

[King of Rasslin]

I went to a go web site. It said Confucious thought it was a waste of time. It apparently is, if even a native of China (and a master teacher) thinks so.

Chess has always been considered the king of games. There can be only one!

[thinkingamer]

I went to a go web site. It said Confucious thought it was a waste of time. It apparently is, if even a native of China (and a master teacher) thinks so.

I bet Jesus could have said the same thing to Chess. Any game is a waste of time to moralists, monks, etc.

Well, both games are very easy to learn and hard to master.

Well, my dad's level in Go is 2k (a decent level) and according to him, u don't have a right to compare Chess w/ Go unless u r at least 10k in Go. Im pretty decent in Chess (1700s in Yahoo Chess) and only a 18k in Go, but i know that Go is MUCH harder to be good at it.

[King of Rasslin]

Bah! Go is so simple. 2 colors of stones and you just have to surrond others and take territory. There have been entire BOOKS written on chess. Now try to understand that. Go is kinda like Tic Tac Toe, if you can see the similarity. Chess is a whole other world. Ask any Russian what is the second greatest thing in life (behind vodka) and he will tell you it is Chess.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by thinkingamer
Well, my dad's level in Go is 2k (a decent level) and according to him, u don't have a right to compare Chess w/ Go unless u r at least 10k in Go. Im pretty decent in Chess (1700s in Yahoo Chess) and only a 18k in Go, but i know that Go is MUCH harder to be good at it.

Thinkingamer, I take it that that's 2-kyu amateur. Not really that high.

By your own words, you have no right to compare the two.
A rating of 1700 at Chess is pretty average, not much higher than 18-kyu at Go. I'd say try to comment on my comparison again when you've reached a FIDE rating of 2450 (Master level) and the equivalent at Go (1-dan professional). Or your father, of course.
KoR, there are lots of Go books, too, including quite a few already by western players.

[thinkingamer]

Ribannah, can u teach me go?

[thinkingamer]

Originally posted by Ribannah

Thinkingamer, I take it that that's 2-kyu amateur. Not really that high.

By your own words, you have no right to compare the two.
A rating of 1700 at Chess is pretty average, not much higher than 18-kyu at Go. I'd say try to comment on my comparison again when you've reached a FIDE rating of 2450 (Master level) and the equivalent at Go (1-dan professional). Or your father, of course.
KoR, there are lots of Go books, too, including quite a few already by western players.

I agree ur logic; i guess i was only expressing my fathers opinion.

Note: i don't have a Go board, no Go opponent (father gave up playing Go), no Go teacher, but only 2 Go books. According what i know, 18k -1k (lower the better) and 1k is the highest (Don't know what exactly k is). And among 1ks there are 1d-9d (Which is for professionals, higher the better). By professional Go standard, my father is a certain amateur, but as an average player i think its decent.

And by the way, i learned Chess rules by a friend, and i learned to be good at Chess in Yahoo Chess. I don't know anything about Professional Chess rating or anything of that sort....I told my score in Yahoo Chess to prove that i have some knowledge of Chess.
In Yahoo Chess, u r average if u r 1200-1499, above average if u r 1500-1799, advanced if u r 1800-2099, and expert if u r 2100+.

[Ribannah]

If you're serious, the best way to learn is to study the games of the top-level players, and seek the intention behind every single move.
Play against opponents who are 1-3 kyu stronger than you. Take your time, and never place a stone just because it looks a nice spot. Comment on your own games afterward (not just the ones you won!), then ask a much stronger player where you went wrong (not just the ones you lost!).

The same holds when you want to learn chess, or any strategic game for that matter.

Go to http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~mechner/go/kyu.html for a description of Go ranking systems.

[thinkingamer]

Korea: Totally different. Koreans tend not to start keeping track of their numerical rating until they're quite strong (maybe the equivalent of low kyus in the US). 1 gup in Korea (the Korean word gup is related to the Japanese kyu) is as strong as a US 6 dan, and amateur dans are (last I heard) only given to the very strongest players who win amateur tournaments.

My dad is 2 gup.

[Dimension]

Wow...

Given your ultra-patriotic view on world history, I'll try not to piss you off too much, but let me try to put things into perspective.

Do you realize that several people have argued that the United States of America doesn't really belong in Civ3? They do have a point, because while the US is the world's "superpower," it's still only been a big deal for 100 years. Given that Civ3 includes the space race (and the game was developed by Americans) it's certainly justifiable to include them because of their modern achievements... but it's just something to think about.

Please, try to re-read your post from a somewhat objective standpoint. You are basically admitting that Korea was largely inconsequential until 50 years ago, and it should be viewed as one of the greatest civilizations of all time just because it has risen to #13 in the 2001 economy. Civ3 is not a game about the last 50 years. I'm surprised you haven't extrapolated your figures and come to the conclusion that Korea will rule the world in 2050.

Let's try to relate this to the game. Civ3 is about domination by war, technology and culture. You have basically admitted that Korea is not a player in those areas. Look at a few of the civilizations that Firaxis chose, and how they fit. Egyptians thought Pi was 3.1605, but they were pretty smart for 3000BC. Think of China and its thousands of years of history. Look at the "Ancient Times" tech page, and think of how significant Rome was. Look at the "Middle Ages" page and think of the role of the British Empire. Look at the "Modern Times" page and think of the US and Russian roles in those areas.

Firaxis has tried to distill world history into 16 important civilizations while allowing temporal, geographic, and cultural diversity. Now, if this number doubles in the expansion, they could probably find room for Taiwan and Korea on the Asian side of things, but that post certainly doesn't help your case. Look at it. As Korea's "Major" early inventions, at least four of the six things you mentioned are completely ridiculous!

Korea printed a book in 1377 using metal plates. Quite impressive, but it certainly didn't further science. It didn't lead to them producing a full set of movable type and printing books, did it? It actually makes you wonder just what Korea was doing in the 100 years between the Chikchisimgyong and the invention of movable type.

Korea made water clocks? Please explain the significance. Korea didn't invent sundials... or clocks... or water clocks. They just made a few water clocks. I've made paper airplanes -- that doesn't make me Orville Wright. A Korean added a chime to a water clock in 1434. I guess you could call that an invention, but I would have to say it's somewhat less important than the invention of disposable lighters in terms of world significance.

Korea invented the rain gauge in 1441. Hmm. It wasn't a 1-piece gauge, though. It was the combination of a cup and a measuring stick. So, before that, people would walk outside and look at a bucket and say, "Hey, it rained a lot last night." The Koreans combined that with a measuring device so you could say exactly how much it rained! The world's first metorologists! Well, they didn't predict the weather, and they didn't have barometers, but maybe you can call them meteorologists.

Korea made a new phonetic writing system in 1443 to be different than China and Japan. So? Japan invented their phonetic writing system in the 900's. Written English goes back to the 700's. Egyptians and Mayans were using hieroglyphics a long time before that. In this context, how is Hangul the slightest bit significant?

Yes, a Korean general armored his fleet in 1592, and thus technically the first ironclads belonged to the Koreans. You've actually found something that is legitimately accepted as a Korean invention ...I must point out, however, that this is another example of a good idea a Korean had that Korea as a whole never adopted. Yi Sun-Sin had the brilliant idea of protecting his ships, but the idea was not used again until it caught on in the 1800's.

It's also a cool fact that in the 1590's Korea had pottery nice enough to impress China and Japan, but again, keep in mind that plenty cultures had quality pottery thousands of years earlier.

People make fun of France for being a military joke, but they had Napoleon. Korea has the honor of doing nearly nothing militarily except getting their butts kicked by a neighboring archapellago from time to time.

I'm not trying to be extremely rude, and I don't have anything against Korea (except for the Hyundai my girlfriend bought that never ran right), but your post is pretty sad. The very fact that you couldn't come up with anything impressive to post about the history of Korea is really working against you. You said so many completely ridiculous things! Technically the Korean war is still going on because in 1953 they signed an armistice agreement instead of a peace treaty?!?! Are you completely insane? What are you doing on the net? Shouldn't you be out fighting for your country?

OK, OK, I'll stop. I just think your post was a little over the top. I do think Korea would be cool in the expansion, and the Turtle ironclad UU would be a welcome addition.

[King of Rasslin]

Korea is actually a little more deserving to be in Civ 3 than the Aztecs. I mean, a few dozen Spanish guys crushed them AND the Incas, and the Mayas sacrificed themselves to extinction! I think a few Asian guys should be in Civ 3 than some Indians.

By the way, the people in India would be considered Arabs, right? India shares its culture with Pakistan, an Arab country. Hindu's are only found in some remote villages, but Islam and Middle East culture abounds in India. Regardless, India isn't really Asian. They do not have squinty eyes that close when they smile and their skin is too dark to be Asian.

[Dimension]

Yeah, it is a little odd that they included the Aztecs and not Spain or Portugal, but I suppose that was just a geographic thing... they wanted to come up with neighbors for Abe.

For some reason I thought this was just a 1-page thread... I'm not going to read 22 pages so I'll just assume plenty other people have mentioned the things I said. Sorry...

[yellfromhell]

King of Rasslin,
I wont waste words explaining all the goals the Aztecs reached. I agree, yes, with Dimension, about the fact that Spain or Portugal deserve much more to be in Civ than the Aztecs, but Korea is not better than the Aztecs. In the same line, I would say you are under-estimating the Indians. I again wont waste words but just let me tell you something: India has 800 millon people and only one region - Kashmir - has muslims mayority. Therefore, I would suggest you to find more about religion in a good encyclopedia and talk later.
Hugs.
Yellfromhell.

[Q Classic]

yellfromhell:
tell me, why isn't korea better than the aztecs?

you say you won't waste words on explaining yourself, but when you post on a long thread about why korea should deserve a position...