The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[yin26]

Mark L:

Thanks for taking the time to read it all.

As for the printing press, the research I have done says something like this: "Gutenburg expanded upon and systematized what was learned from Asia." In other words, you are partially right on this. Korea made no attempt to revolutionalize the world with its invention. BUT that knowledge made its way to Europe. Without that knowledge, there would have been no Gutenberg. Feel free to research that. Sure, the printing press would likely have been invented in Europe at some point...but perhaps centuries later. Who can say?

[edited in: This site is a bit more balanced but still fails to mention Korea clearly enough]

The adaptation of block-print technology - known in Europe since the return of Marco Polo from Asia at the end of the 13th century.

http://communication.ucsd.edu/bjones.../printech.html

As for iron clad ships, the evidence is a lot less clear. Considering that the Americans are usually given credit for using ironclads during the Civil War, one can conclude that for whatever reasons, reports of the turtle boats didn't make it out of Asia. Again, Korea didn't see the need to use its advantage to go conquering other nations, which an iron clad ship would have done a lot to help make possible.

By the way, the oldest wood block printing book in the world (the Darani Sutra) is ALSO located in Korea, suggesting that the printing history goes WAY back in Korea's culture. And as I have said, that technology eventually DID get to Europe. And thanks to this massive headstart Korea had in printing stuff, some of the world's oldest and best preserved materials on Budhism and old societies are preserved THANKS to the Koreans. This has allowed scholars to study in great detail what would have forever remained a mystery otherwise.

Those are MAJOR contributions to the world.

Simply put, Korea is one of the jewels of humanity. But did they go on barbaric rampages killing and raping? No. So they are often forgotten. Have they been a major influence in the 20th century. No. They were under colonial rule...and are often forgotten.

Please don't let THIS moment in history cloud the larger truth. And again, if you included the Mongols and Vikings who existed for a blink of the historical eye and did little else but ruin OTHER civilizations (the amount of culture LOST to those raids is staggering), certainly a peaceful, inventive and still increasingly powerful culture should be toward the top of ANY list looking at the quality and longevity of a people.

I would not exclude the Chinese or the Japanese from the list since they have interesting histories of their own. But Korea, sandwiched in between, is truly an astounding nation...and would be a GREAT civ to play in Civ3 if setup to represent the difficult time they had.

[yin26]

A closer look at the history of print, however, shows that the invention of the printing press depended on a confluence of both cultural and technological forces that had been unfolding for several centuries....Some historians suggest that print was instrumental in bringing about all the major shifts in science, religion, politics and the modes of thought that are commonly associated with modern Western culture.

Wow. Talk about helping influence the world! Now, China played its part in this with their techniques for paper, etc. So various elements worked together for this to happen, but it is no longer disputed where the first moveable type printing press was invented. UNESCO announced it was in Korea. However, the following statements, which are still very popular, are wrong:

1) Gutenberg invented the printing press. (No...he improved on it).

(if you are lucky, you'll at least read the next part, even though it is only partially right)

2) China provided the technological background for the printing press. (Well...Korea provided much more).

There is debate, however, of wood block printing. Let me try to find a good link, though.

[yin26]

http://www.nfm.go.kr/enghtml2/en_jone_12.htm

The oldest known woodblock printing in the world is Darani Sutra found insde Seokga Pagoda of Bulguksa Temple in 1966. Because the pagoda was built in 751 A.D., the sutra must have been printed before
751 A.D.

There you have it. Korea was already printing stuff with woodblock in the 8th century!!!

[edited in]
Oh, and did I mention the HEATED FLOORS IN THE 5th CENTURY!!??

These weather variations are directly linked to the development of the traditional style of Korean housing—there was obviously a great deal to be gained from developing a method of keeping warm. One of the most innovative technologies developed in Korea lends itself to just this task. The ondol (this translates as “warm stone”) floor, which dates back as far as the fifth century, was key in heating the Korean household.

http://www.i5ive.com/article.cfm/korean_culture/36529

Anybody care to remind us what was going on in Europe during the 5-8th centuries? Printing and toasty floors for the feet?

[ruckus9]

To yin26
Thanks I will be looking into more Korean history. I've taken an Asian history class once but it never really focused on Korea (mainly on China, Japan, India, etc) But like you said it'll take time for people to take Korea for more than what it seems.

I must admit though that I am for the most part ignorant of Korean history. It's probably because, like alot of people, I admire "conqueror" civs and find them more interesting. But your thread was a revelation to me: that Korea had the unique role of being one of the few peaceful civs that has survived intact to this day. And that's pretty amazing in of itself. And I'm not even mentioning the other things that you pointed out...

And now when my European friends ask me what Koreans have accomplished I can tell them

BTW your ideas for implementing the Koreans into Civ 3 are good How do you come up with this stuff?

[yin26]

I am REALLY glad to hear this info has meant something to you personally. There is an entire generation of Korea-Americans missing out on the treasure of their heritage. They should be the ones leading the historical discovery of Korea instead of letting white guys like me do it "from the outside." Of course, in some ways when a NON-Korean does these things, it seems less biased. But I don't think it needs to be that way. Without scholars doing all the hard work here in Korea, it would be awfully hard to do much.

It's probably because like alot of people I admire "conqueror" civs and find them more interesting.

That is in many ways natural. Human beings implicitly understand the power to destroy. But as we know, what takes generations to build can take but moments to ruin, so unfortunately while we admire the maurading Vikings and Mongols, what they did and what they left for future generations is NOTHING compared to what a peaceful, inventive nation such as Korea has done.

Then again, look at the nightly news. What gets top-story? The graphic, bloody, or sexual stuff. History isn't much different.

BTW your ideas for implementing the Koreans into Civ 3 are good How do you come up with this stuff?

Thanks. Actually, it's quite a simple idea: Since many, many people have complained over the years that Civ became too much of a war game (after all, Sid modeled it after Sim City! and wanted the peaceful path to be much fuller than it was), I think Korea fits a perfect role in Civ3: A peaceful civ that can defend itself well, has good tech, but is horrible at expansion and MUST rely on friendly relations to survive. That would be a real challenge and a great, historical addition to Civ.

If I end up buying Civ 3, you can count on me making a Korean scenario.

[YefeiPi]

Yes that IS true. But that was not what u said b4. U said that:

they didn't really conquer any lands not because they can't, but because they didn't bother to.

Yes that's what I said, and you said it's not because they didn't bother to, they can't is what you meant.

And it is clearly an exaggeration. Even in the peak of the Chinese, the Tang dynasty, China is far from being able to conquer the world. My example with the Sui dynasty supports this bcos China failed to conquer a small civilization only 50 years prior to its peak. China is a regional superpwer, yes, but it would clearly be an exaggeration if you say that it could conquer the world.

The Manchus were not considered to be Chinese at the time they invaded China. It was during the Qing that they assimulated into Chinese civilization.

China is a regional power in those times? Are you mad? It's one of the strongest, if not THE strongest country overall in the world!
Also what do you mean Manchus were not Chinese at the time they invaded? They looks the same, speak the same, how more Chinese do you get?

China is a regional superpwer, yes, but it would clearly be an exaggeration if you say that it could conquer the world.

Conquer the world might be an exaggeration because it is impossible for any country to do so. The land mass of Earth is simply too large to be fully conquered. However, at the time, I stand the fact that China can crush any country with the mighty power it had.

[Saint Marcus]

Thanks for taking the time to read it all.

My pleasure. Great research.

As for the printing press, the research I have done says something like this: "Gutenburg expanded upon and systematized what was learned from Asia." In other words, you are partially right on this. Korea made no attempt to revolutionalize the world with its invention. BUT that knowledge made its way to Europe. Without that knowledge, there would have been no Gutenberg. Feel free to research that. Sure, the printing press would likely have been invented in Europe at some point...but perhaps centuries later. Who can say?

Interesting. Haven't heard of that. However, there also is a version that describes Holland as the inventors of the printing press and then Gutenburg stole that design. I don't think anyone can really tell us what Gutenburg really did.

As for iron clad ships, the evidence is a lot less clear. Considering that the Americans are usually given credit for using ironclads during the Civil War, one can conclude that for whatever reasons, reports of the turtle boats didn't make it out of Asia. Again, Korea didn't see the need to use its advantage to go conquering other nations, which an iron clad ship would have done a lot to help make possible.

I believe the American Ironclad was steam powered, and the Korean one was not. Could be mistaken about this, I don't know much about America's naval history. Anyway, as you point out, the Koreans did not use this invention and therefor it's influence on the world was rather limited.

Please don't let THIS moment in history cloud the larger truth. And again, if you included the Mongols and Vikings who existed for a blink of the historical eye and did little else but ruin OTHER civilizations (the amount of culture LOST to those raids is staggering), certainly a peaceful, inventive and still increasingly powerful culture should be toward the top of ANY list looking at the quality and longevity of a people.

It's about the impact they made on the history of the world. If Korea never existed, would the world be dramatically different? Unlikely. But if you ask the same about the Vikings you'd definetly get a yes. They completely changed Europe around for good.

I would not exclude the Chinese or the Japanese from the list since they have interesting histories of their own. But Korea, sandwiched in between, is truly an astounding nation...and would be a GREAT civ to play in Civ3 if setup to represent the difficult time they had.

I would not exclude the French, English or Germans from the list since they have interesting histories of their own. But Holland, sandwiched in between, is truly an astounding nation...and would be a GREAT civ to play in Civ3 if setup to represent the difficult time they had.

Wow. Talk about helping influence the world!

If, and only if, the Gutenburg press was a direct decendent of the Korean press then you are correct. But otherwise it was Germany's achievement, not Korea's.

Oh, and did I mention the HEATED FLOORS IN THE 5th CENTURY!!??

Not that imprisive at all. They have been around in Crete centuries before christ was born.

Anybody care to remind us what was going on in Europe during the 5-8th centuries? Printing and toasty floors for the feet?

Heard of the Byzantine Empire. One of the world's leading powers, both military and scientificially. In those days, quite a bit more advanced than the Koreans. Sadly, they are not included in the game either.

Also, anybody care to remind us wat was going on in Korea during the 15-20th century? Saying "yes massa" to whatever foreign power came along?

That is in many ways natural. Human beings implicitly understand the power to destroy. But as we know, what takes generations to build can take but moments to ruin, so unfortunately while we admire the maurading Vikings and Mongols, what they did and what they left for future generations is NOTHING compared to what a peaceful, inventive nation such as Korea has done.

The Vikings changed Europe around. Colonised Iceland and Greenland. Turned Malta in a European country instead of an Arabic one, and didn't do a very bad job of running the country either. Discovered America. Great ship designs. Forced Holland to organise itself thus playing an important part in the unification of the lowlands. Ended the Anglo-Saxon reign in England, making way for a new era and a new superpower. The Vikings were not just another group of barabarians. Despite the damage they did to other nations, they certainly helped others too. Malta, Iceland and Greenland are certainly better off thanks to them. BTW, the colors in the current Maltese flag are a reminder of their Norman past (red and white being the colors they wore).


Korea is a truly fascinating nation, with a rich culture and history. However, it doesn't qualify for one of the starting 16 in Civ3. Not even the first 24.

[yin26]

15-20th century? Saying "yes massa" to whatever foreign power came along?

You're still a bit spotty. As I have noted many times, things didn't go too horribly wrong until the end of the 19th century. And your "whatever foreign power came along" is also wrong. I'm not quite sure why you want to ruin your case by over-stating it? Sticking to the facts not good enough?

"yes massa": And I hope that doesn't have the implications I think you might mean it to have. However, since you have been civil up this point, I'll just chalk that up to bad taste.

[yin26]

If, and only if, the Gutenburg press was a direct decendent of the Korean press then you are correct. But otherwise it was Germany's achievement, not Korea's.

Do the research. The basic tech came from Asia. Korea was in the lead with the printing (wood block and moveable metal type) while China was great with paper manufacturing techinques (which later got improved on by the Arabs). Along came other places and times to build on the idea. There is no disputing this.

[Saint Marcus]

Say for a sec that you're right and germany's printing press was directly based on the Korean one. That's still a rather marginal claim to be included among the 16 or 24 most important nation/civs of all time. Do you want to place the Koreans above the:

Romans?
Egyptians?
Babylonians?
Persians?
English?
Germans?
Chinese?
French?
Russians?
Aztecs?
Americans?
Japanese?
Zulus?
Iroquis?
Greeks?
Indians?
Byzantines?
Spanish?
Dutch?
Portugese?
Vikings?
Mongols?
Arabs?
Incas?
Mayas?
Olmec?
Toltec?
Sumerians?
Assyrians?
Hebrew?
Phoenicians?
Carthagians?
Italians?
Ottomans?
Khmer?
Creteans?
Burgundians?
Austro-Hungarians?
Ethiopeans?
Thais?
Celts?
Goths?


That's over 40 competetors I believe. Try to place your Korean civ among the first 16. After having read your posts it's easy to see that the Koreans surpas the Zulus and Iroquis. Now lets try the rest. If you can do this I take back everything I said and will edit my own version of Civ3 to include the Koreans as one of the basic 16 civs Good luck

[Sun Zi 36]

YefeiPi :

Conquering Korea could not have been difficult during the Tang and Sung, after all, sure the Koreans would have fought bravely, but the military might of China at that time can probably crush any country easily.

Yes that IS true. But that was not what u said b4. U said that:

they didn't really conquer any lands not because they can't, but because they didn't bother to.

And it is clearly an exaggeration. Even in the peak of the Chinese, the Tang dynasty, China is far from being able to conquer the world. My example with the Sui dynasty supports this bcos China failed to conquer a small civilization only 50 years prior to its peak. China is a regional superpwer, yes, but it would clearly be an exaggeration if you say that it could conquer the world.

The Manchus were not considered to be Chinese at the time they invaded China. It was during the Qing that they assimulated into Chinese civilization.

Now back to the topic:

I still hold the opinion that Korea is not distinct enough from China or Japan. Korea was influenced very strongly by China right up until the last 150 years. Then it became strongly influenced by Japan. Bcos of this, no matter how impressive the Korean culture was under the influence of China (before 1850) or Japan (after 1850), it would be hard to include them as a civilization. I think this is the same argument expressed by most other people in this thread.

To me the similarities between say China and Korea is close to the similarities between the French and the Germans. However there are 2 notable things. First with China/Korea there is clearly one stronger who is influencing the other (China) and the other is mainly being influenced (Korea). With French/German this is not the case. Both are equally influential upon each other which makes it hard to choose. Secondly, with China/Korea only one of them have cultural achievements that significantly influenced the world as a whole. With French/German both have cultural achievements that sigificantly influenced the world (French revolution for the French and reformation for the Germans for example). The second aspect is just the same argument ran by Mark L:

Did the Koreans use their Ironclads to conquer their neighbours? Did (m)any other nations copy their design? No and no. Did the Korean Printing Press revolutionise the world? Also no. The German/Dutch printing press did though.

So by comparing China/Korea similarity with French/German similarity we see that even though the degree of similarity within the two pairs may be quite similar, there is more reason to include as a civ in one pair both French and German whereas only the Chinese in the other pair.

U can do this comparison with every pair of civilizations to determine whether one pair is more distinct from the other pair. Say compare the similarity between the English and the US with the similarity between the Japanese and the Chinese. To me I would say the english and the US are not distinct enough from each other to be classified as separate civs. (I don't want to start the debate again). Distinctiveness is very imprtant, especially when u are only going to choose 16 civs, as there are always civilizations which possess similar cultures and thus would overlap if included.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I, too, believe in uniqueness (which is why I'm opposed to putting the Koreans in the game). Your examples though ignore something. All of those nations had a great impact on the world. France was the dominant power in Europe culturally, for centuries. Germany and Japan were great military powers during WW2, revolutionizing war. England and the US were/are superpowers of their respective Golden Ages. Perhaps the culture is similar, but the impact of these nations is great, and that is a good reason to include them in the game.

[yin26]

MarkLL

I won't go throught the whole list until we've agreed to disagree. For example: Vikings? Mongols?

I've already covered that. Their influence was DISRUPTIVE to mankind. Their image is one of raping and pillaging. Yes, they "made room" for new things to happen...much like burning your house down would make room for more funiture. They were destroyers, living off the work of others. Those two groups are directly responsible for the loss of countless lives and culture. And how could the Vikings "discover" a land that already had people living in it? And by the time we start talking about Greenland as some major accoplishment, we know something is wrong.

Yes, their influence was great. So is the influence of any group that takes as stealing and killing its main way to survive. If this is still good enough for you, then we will no doubt have to disagree in principle on a great number of the other civs in your list.

That's still a rather marginal claim to be included among the 16 or 24 most important nation/civs of all time.

Well, considering that many scholars think that the printing press made possible the Renaissance and a great deal of the scientific and cultural breakthroughs in Europe, your lable of "marginal" is curious. If there is ONE invention by mankind in the last millenium that revolutionized the way we live, a great number of informed people would say: The Printing Press.

At any rate, what I will repeat is my opening statement: Korea does not currently have enough appeal to most of the people who would buy this game. This is, however, a matter of clearing the historical records and making the Korean civ distinct enough in the game for people to appreciate and enjoy them. I realize that could also be done with other civs as well.

But I will leave it for now with this thought: As a PEACEFUL nation, Korea has lasted through the millenia and along the way contributed at least with printing technology to the advancement of ALL nations, though they did not do this directly...but doing things "for the world" is a very modern concept anyway. Situated next to what was and what again could become the most powerful nation in the world, Korea has yet remained DISTINCT, despite what many people here believe. Korea's language and customs and politics are all incredibly distinct from those of China. Yes, Korea is often referred to throughout history as China's "little brother," and it would make sense for a relatively smaller nation to be careful living next to a much larger one, but that does NOT make them a China rip-off. Koreans have distinct blood and history.

Japan, however, owes its existence to Korea. You can do the research yourself if you want. As the Japanese were forced to open their culture at the hands of a technologically superior West, they made the brilliant move to assimilate the tech, improve on it, and use it to their advantage in their region. Here again, however, we have a Japan that inflicted untold pain and misery on its neighbors, something for which both China and Korea have not forgotten today, and something for which Japan is still finding difficult to overcome despite a number of its current leaders trying to distort the past and publish lies. Its leaders still, for example, visit the graves of convicted Japanese war criminals.

Finally, as for the game of Civ3, realizing the limit to the number of civs, I would still put China first. I would take out Japan, however, and put Korea in its place...though many, many gamers would not understand that decision without being taught a great deal of history first. And unless Civ 3 shows great sales in Korea, Korea will not make it in the x-pack.

This is fine by me. My primary goal here, I think, has been achieved: Those of you who took the time to read all my posts (thank you) no doubt have a better understanding of Korea...and hopefully a deeper appreciation for its history and people. I would encourage you if you are still in school to help clear the record in any Asian history courses you might take...or anytime Korea is disregarded or glossed over. Do this NOT as an advocate for Korea, but as somebody who is intellectually demanding enough not to let half-truths and shoddy education continue on and on for countless more generations.

[YefeiPi]

I agree with Yin, Japanese are a group of very unappreciative people. When China was a superpower in its golden age, Japanese took Chinese culture and adopted it, China was even kind enough to share many of its techs to help out the Japanese with their lives. However, in the recent centuries, as China begins to lose its leading edge because of isolationism, Japan begin to turn around and started to attack China, Korea as well as many asian neighbours. It's like a dog turning against its masters, well now the Japanese's got a new master, the U.S. And watch one day, when America falls, Japan will start biting them as well.

Pity it even made it into Civ3, Korea in my opinion would have been a much better and wiser choice.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yefi, so you are saying the Japanese are bad because of that?

It seems like a VERY intelligent move by the Japanese to turn on the Chinese, and take much of the rich provinces. The Japanese have ALWAYS been a culture that takes from other cultures and then improves on it. What it has done is 1900 is a great example. It industrialized faster than any nation EVER and now is the nation with the 2nd largest GDP in the world. It's Golden Age is either the 1930s or 1980s, and it made the most of it.

If Korea was included in the original game, I'd set out looking for a mod pack to replace them with the Japanese.

[easy]

Yin26, I've some question about your data. As I checked from
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html
There is only 47.5 million people in South Korea but you said the
population in Soul is 21.4 million. Almost half of the country
population is in one city? That's really unbelievable.

[yin26]

There is only 47.5 million people in South Korea but you said the population in Soul is 21.4 million. Almost half of the country population is in one city? That's really unbelievable.

Yes. It is pretty amazing. Seoul City and the government has tried many things to spread out the population more. For example, they have built kind of suburb areas with ultra-modern apartments, etc. It has only marginally worked.

The problem is that S.Korea's landmass is rather small, especially after the division. And since Seoul was the capital for centuries, virtually all governmental and educational and work-related stuff goes on here. There are some exceptions...shipping in Pusan, for example, but mainly: "If you want to succeed, go to Seoul." That has been the way of thinking.

By the way, I'm amazed you caught that detail!

[yin26]

Imran:

If you talk to Chinese and Koreans, Japanese actions in this region during the 19th and 20th centuries were horrid. Certainly you are aware of some of them, yes? If not, I'll gladly provide the details.

This means that Japan has NOT been a very good neighbor. Is that "bad"? Well, yes, it is. Memories are not that short, after all, and there are a number of issues yet to be resolved before China and Korea truly respect Japan...if ever. Clearly this does not help the region.

What you admire, of course, was their resourcefulness. But think of Pearl Harbor. An amazing feat, to be sure. In some ways, a brilliant tactical decision. But look at what happened in the end. Hiroshima and Nagasaki turned to ash.

So, Japan's imperialism has only brought pain to this region and eventually back onto itself. When it has used its advantages to market superior products, however, nobody can question their value to the region and the world.

But I tell you this: There is a painting somewhat famous here in Korea. It shows three images. One is of a single Japanese person who has a huge smile on his face. The next is of a Japanese person in a small group with really no expression. The last is of Japanese in a large group with a look like a demon. In general, Koreans feel that Japanese one on one are amazingly polite...in a small group, rather flat...and as a nation, not to be trusted.

Is that bad? I think so. You, however, might admire that about them.

[YefeiPi]

Imran, first please spell my name correctly when referring to me. I mean my nick is not even 7 letters long and you mispelled the first five!

Yefi, so you are saying the Japanese are bad because of that?

It seems like a VERY intelligent move by the Japanese to turn on the Chinese, and take much of the rich provinces. The Japanese have ALWAYS been a culture that takes from other cultures and then improves on it. What it has done is 1900 is a great example. It industrialized faster than any nation EVER and now is the nation with the 2nd largest GDP in the world. It's Golden Age is either the 1930s or 1980s, and it made the most of it.

If Korea was included in the original game, I'd set out looking for a mod pack to replace them with the Japanese.

Intelligent move by the Japanese? NO! Oh I know, maybe because you haven't personally experienced or even heard of the pain and suffering the japs had done to other Asians. You still don't know why Japan is hated by so many people in Asia, do you? It's because not only they take land but the way they kill people! They gang rape pregnant women and slice their stomachs for their own perverted sexual pleasures, actually I won't get into detail of what they did because those acts are just inhuman and shame to human civilzation, hell, not even animals behave like the Jap soldiers during WW.

How did you think Japan got its economy going when it was so poor after it lost WWII? The money and wealth they looted from China, Korea and other Asian countries alone practically jump started their economy! You actually think they started from scratch? Everything Japan has ever achieved, it's always based on someone else's resources or knowledge. A pitiful shame if you ask me.

[yin26]

YefeiPi:

Let's see if these following pictures don't help people like Imran understand the truth a bit better. Of course, he might just say: "Hey, that's war. Get over it." These are from the Nanjing Massacre: 300,000 Chinese People Killed, 20,000 Women Raped. For people's sake here, I have not used the IMG tag. Click on these at your own risk.

Pile of severed heads (men and women): http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/head1.jpg

Young boy about to be beheaded: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/behead.jpg

Japanese leaving their 'message' after raping a woman: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/rape2.jpg

Woman gutted after being raped: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/rape4.jpg

Pile of dead babies: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/babies.jpg

Happy soldier posing with severed head: http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/heads.jpg

So, Imran, if you would like to see Japan in Civ 3, more power to you. Just remember these pictures when some exotic notion of an honorable, advanced nation comes to mind. The pile of babies and gutted woman are particularly impressive. Yes. Put them in Civ 3!

Japan was built on top of those heads, raped women and dead babies.

[yin26]

As for the Japanese war criminals sentenced after WW2:

Joseph Keenan, the chief prosecutor representing the United States at the trial, issued a press statement along with the indictment: ".. it is high time ... that the promoters of aggressive, ruthless war and treaty-breakers should be stripped of the glamour of national heroes and exposed as what they really are --- plain, ordinary murderers."

The charges:

The indictment accused the defendants of promoting a scheme of conquest that "contemplated and carried out ... murdering, maiming and ill-treating prisoners of war (and) civilian internees ... forcing them to labor under inhumane conditions ... plundering public and private property, wantonly destroying cities, towns and villages beyond any justification of military necessity; (perpetrating) mass murder, rape, pillage, brigandage, torture and other barbaric cruelties upon the helpless civilian population of the over-run countries."

Japan's top leaders still visit the graves of these convicted criminals despite being asked not to by China and Korea. Japan, however, sees only 'glorious' victory as inspired by a divine mandate. Hmmm. Glorious indeed.

[Jeje2]

OK,
just read the first message in this thread and had the feeling of reading an presidential election speach (Well written)

Now, then to facts...
First, Several countries has had Olympics (Even Finland).
And the reason why Korea is the biggest shipbuilder are huge fundings by taxmoney, thus killing westeuropean (and Finnish) shipyards.

Moving on to Vikings:
- Yes they are mostly known for destruction, but they did commerse too.
- They were the explorers.
* With rivers through Russia to Black Sea
* Along the costline to France, England etc.
* They discovered America some time before Columbus did
- Yes they faded away finally, just like Rome

This said I do think that why not have Korea?
I like the description for Korea, that Yin made.
(It has potential to be a fun choice of play.)

To me it's not mearly about who deserves to be in the game. Sure there are some must-be-groups, but after that I think that the rest should be different types of nations. (So some militaristic, some researching, some religious, etc...)



P.S. Yin: What made you move to Korea in the first place? Apereantly it's having bad side-effects on you.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by yin26

Japan was built on top of those heads, raped women and dead babies.

This is ridiculous. You are so blinded by your championing of Korea that you can't look at anything objectively.

Japan is no more guilty of atrocities than any other "great" civilization. Any form of warfare is by definition an atrocity. Just to mention a few examples, China has slaughtered millions with the cultural revolution, the Americans had slavery and slaughtered the Native Americans, the Germans during the Hitler era I need not mention the details, etc. etc.

Are you going to argue that Korea is not guilty of any brutality? Until only recently South Korea was ruled by corruption with an "elected" president thanks to rigged ballots. Did the political prisoners have a fun time? Even now, under the new Nobel Peace Prize winning president there are still political prisoners not freed.

Should I even mention North Korea? Or I guess with your blindness they don't count. I guess they're not Korean?

Your denigration of Japan is just as racist and repugnant as the worst that they have done and are now doing. In the end, we are all human, and all humans are capable of atrocities as well as kindness or great achievements.

[yin26]

My point is that by comparison (as I have said many times in this thread), one of the OUTSTANDING things about the Korean nation is that is has had very little of what you are talking about with China and Japan.

I realize my last statement about Japan was a bit of trolling, but only a bit. Modern Japan WAS built on those things. The fact that other countries did the same or worse is irrelevant. What IS relevant in this thread is Korea.

Korea has NEVER attacked outside its borders (at least not since the time it was clear what the borders were). Korea has NEVER massacred OTHER people's citizens.

Yes, Korea has been brutal on its own people at times. But compared to what has happened in China, it's statistically almost non-existent. Yes, Korea did execute foreigners (particularly missionaries) during its "hermit" phase, and that way of thinking is in part responsible for what caused Korea's decline in the 19th century.

So I will repeat: Korea's primarily peaceful way of development over the centuries is amazing. China's human rights violations are not in question. And as I have pointed out, Japan's atrocities are A MILLION TIMES worse than anything Korea ever did to its own people.

Japan is still considered a pariah by many in Asia. Sorry if that bothers you. Look at the pictures again to understand why.

[yin26]

Your denigration of Japan is just as racist and repugnant as the worst that they have done and are now doing.

I don't think you understand those words. "Racism" has nothing to do with it. The evidence is clear enough: The Japanese brought upon the Asian region some of the most horric atrocities ever seen by man. A number of the leaders were found to be war criminals of the highest degree.

"repugnant as the worst they have done"

Now you are really losing your mind. Yes. My putting before you in words and images the cold brutality of Imperialistic Japan is as repugnant as a gutted woman and a pile of babies. Try again, friend.

Do those facts bother you? Ignore them then, if that is more comfortable to you. And does it bother you that modern Japan WAS built on the blood of its neighbors? If so, twist history and use words like "racist" recklessly.

Still won't change the truth.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by yin26

So I will repeat: Korea's primarily peaceful way of development over the centuries is amazing.

Japan is still considered a pariah by many in Asia. Sorry if that bothers you. Look at the pictures again to understand why.

No, it's not amazing. You can't conquer anyone else when you're too busy defending yourself from China and Japan.

And it doesn't bother me. The U.S. is considered a pariah by almost the rest of the world. That's what happens when you're one of the most powerful cultures. That's just the way it is.

[yin26]

That's what happens when you're one of the most powerful cultures. That's just the way it is.

The notable stains of slavery and killing off American Indians aside, the U.S. is amazing historically precisely for NOT doing the kinds of things like Japan did. I juse heard a scholar recently saying that it is simply amazing that a country as powerful as the U.S. has NOT gone on a rampage. The U.S. is considered a pariah by many NOT for being powerful but for being ignorant and imperious.

But at least you admit your bias: You like "powerful" civs. And by "powerful," you mean able to rape and behead people with virtual impunity until the world courts hunt you down or until an atomic bomb drops on you in desperation. Hey, "that's just the way it is." Cool.

Maybe you could make a mod and use some of the images up there everytime you attack China with Japan?

DISCLAIMER: Lest other people think I have lost my mind, I realize Civ 3 is a GAME. What we are talking about here, however, is history...and the importance of not forgetting it when you praise or detract from a nation.

[yin26]

Jeje:

I like the description for Korea, that Yin made.
(It has potential to be a fun choice of play.)

Thanks. I think it would be a lot of fun...even if we have to mod it to make it work. And you are right, the decision to include a civ should be based on 1) representing civs somewhat evenly around the world and 2) making them fun to play.

[yin26]

As for North Korea, they are perhaps the last bastion of "pure" Communism on earth. Even then, they have the first 'Dynastic Communism' in history, which unfortunately has led to untold starvation and human rights violations.

Yes, North Koreans are Koreans. They are Koreans setup by the Russians to be a Communistic buffer against the South. They are a nation unto themselves. If you like to be technical, go back and please edit all my posts that refer to Korea after the division and make sure it says "SOUTH Korea." Thanks.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by yin26

But at least you admit your bias: You like "powerful" civs. And by "powerful," you mean able to rape and behead people with virtual impunity until the world courts hunt you down or until an atomic bomb drops on you in desperation. Hey, "that's just the way it is." Cool.

Huh? Where did I ever say this? If I like brutality, then why did I criticize the Koreans for doing the same thing?

This debate is getting nowhere, and I will say no more. Read the thread "Will people ever stop bickering with each other?" to better understand what I think of humanity and so-called "civilization".

And BTW, I am Korean-American. Bet you never thought that, did you? But I don't try to identify myself as being a part of any culture, but of course you can never escape it entirely. I just try my best to just look at myself as being part of the whole human race.