The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[Aro]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Aro, I saw your cartoons. They are very nicely drawn, but I don't understand anything.

Thanks, Lord Merciless. All the stuff is about our local issues. It’s hard to understand, even for us... However, in my new page I'll put international cartoons, in english. Next week, I hope...

[Red Hand]

Well, Ghengis, I am a high school teacher, so you can imagine my reaction to your summation of public education But I walked around for a bit, and feel a bit better now, although I can't let your post go without a little response.

I am sorry that your checkout experience was so bad, but really, how important is it that someone can add in their head? Really? I can do calculus in my head (well, a little anyway) but that doesn't make me smart (other things do, ha ha). Where is this school that has no grades or tests? I would love to work there, it would sure cut down on my paperwork. Social Promotion (passing kids though grades 1-8 whether they have achieved "passing" grades or not) doesn't seem to work well that's true. But, it was instituted because holding kids back did not get them to improve. So this didn't work either, let's try something else, not say everything was due to overemphasis on self-esteem and go back to what didn't work in the first place.

I know you were mostly joking before, but these kind of opinions, even presented in jest, make it hard to be an educator.

Whoo! Off the soapbox. Sorrry this was so off the topic, but when was the last time someone actually posted about the Korean civilization anyway?

[King of Rasslin]

"Some of the younger (16 and under) members posting here are from small private schools which tend to concentrate on a very specific and somewhat biased curriculum. "

I go to a private Christian school. I'm one of the people that is upset the Roman Empire was put in instead of the Holy Roman Empire. I refuse to play as atheist China. I won't play 17+ games. I send 20% of my money to church. And I think alcohol and gambling are sins.

And I'm kidding about most of that. I'l just leave it that I am very ignorant but I have a lot of people backing me up! Apparently "Play the World" is more about unfamiliar civs, like the Arabs or Carthaginians. I think the Celts or Gauls are in there too. I love Civ 3, and I don't know if the new civs are such a good idea, and Korea is the more discussed one. I don't know a thing about Korea; I got bored of this thread.

Sorry, but Eastern culture just isn't interesting! I cannot remember the names of Chinese leaders because they all seem the same. There are so many "Zhangs" "Chins" and "Lees" that it is very easy to confuse them. It's not as difficult to remember "Richard II" or "Louis XIV".

It isn't like I am not interested in Eastern culture, but it's that their culture is very different from ours. We know rats are nasty vermin, but they have huge temples devoted to them (I saw it on Ripley's believe it or not). Karate is Japanese and Taekwondo is Korean. Because these ARE economic powers, their martial arts are widespread. Kung Fu of Tibet and West China is not as widespread. Ninjitsu is only seen in cheap movies here. You don't have Eastern culture taught to you, you have to seek it out yourself! That's why being able to shove your culture down other's throats is very important.

The Atlantis civilization, if it even existed, was too isolationist to spread its culture. Alexander the Great's conquests spread Greek culture, and that is why we study them so much today. As sad as it sounds, military might is just as important as culture. This is also reflected in Civ 3.

Korea didn't go on invasions, and I say that it hurts its placement as a civilization. However, I am certain that they would balance out with the militaristic civs that will be introduced in PtW. Although most would admit that the Koreans are the second choice after the Mongols. I might learn more about Eastern Culture, but they are still a lot harder to understand than Europe!

[yellfromhell]

KoR,

I understand you. Im as ignorant as you about eastern cultures (or maybe not so ignorant ). But we have one difference: my ignorance leads me to research and makes me interested in what I actually cant understand.
Let me tell you that there were lots of Richards and Louis in Europe... ¿dont you confuse them?
Sometimes we dont have to blame the information or the media, but also accept that we are not interested in learning this or that. I asume you recognized you are not interested in learning Eastern Culture, so thats good. But please dont blame the culture for your lack of interest.
Hugs
Yell

[King of Rasslin]

European kings often have titles, like "red-bearded" or "the lion hearted" to help distinguish them. Many of them ended up in Civ games, like "the meek" or "the great." There was one king even known as "the short!" This really helps you remember them, and unfortunately the Chinese or Koreans never got this cool idea. The Iroquios would use this system more than any other civilization. If you ran fast, you were Sprinting Deer. If you were fat and lazy, you were Sitting Bull. However, they didn't pair these names with their formal names like the European kings did. I like this system because you can learn a lot about a person through his name.

In America, a person in the Smith family might be a blacksmith or have blacksmiths in his family. If a man is named Tyson, he is the son of a man named Ty, or a decendant of him. The family name system of the East is a lot more complicated, and I don't really like it.

[Q Classic]

red hand, it was actually page 13. this is page 14.

pfeh, i don't know how the fvcking hell it got so far off target.

Sorry, but Eastern culture just isn't interesting! I cannot remember the names of Chinese leaders because they all seem the same. There are so many "Zhangs" "Chins" and "Lees" that it is very easy to confuse them. It's not as difficult to remember "Richard II" or "Louis XIV".

except, see, there's that same problem of however many richards, edwards, philips, louis, nicholases.... it's very easy to confuse them.

It isn't like I am not interested in Eastern culture, but it's that their culture is very different from ours. We know rats are nasty vermin, but they have huge temples devoted to them (I saw it on Ripley's believe it or not). Karate is Japanese and Taekwondo is Korean. Because these ARE economic powers, their martial arts are widespread. Kung Fu of Tibet and West China is not as widespread. Ninjitsu is only seen in cheap movies here. You don't have Eastern culture taught to you, you have to seek it out yourself! That's why being able to shove your culture down other's throats is very important.

it sure as hell sounds like you're not interested. you haven't done any research, and yet you seem to believe that you're qualified to comment on stuff you haven't the foggiest about. do you know why kung fu is not "widespread" as you say? it's not because china isn't an economic power-- it is. it's because kung fu, as you understand it, is taught only by a select group of buddhist monks, who refuse to take their training overseas.
the reason you don't have eastern culture taught to you is obvious-- it's not "western", and for the vast majority of history, not "christian", and because until recently, americans have glibly ignored the fact that europe has not always been the center of the world.

Alexander the Great's conquests spread Greek culture, and that is why we study them so much today. As sad as it sounds, military might is just as important as culture. This is also reflected in Civ 3.

alexander the great is studied in the west. in the east? not so much. why? because his effects on anything west of, say, india, really were quite minimal. it's doubtful he'd've even gotten as far as china had he lived.

Korea didn't go on invasions, and I say that it hurts its placement as a civilization. However, I am certain that they would balance out with the militaristic civs that will be introduced in PtW. Although most would admit that the Koreans are the second choice after the Mongols. I might learn more about Eastern Culture, but they are still a lot harder to understand than Europe!

they're only a lot harder to understand because of the simple fact that you're used to westernized eurocentric curriculum. had your school decided to teach you a more balanced history, you'd not say the same things.

at least you're speaking in a more reasonable tone. it's too bad, KoR, that you've pretty much already damaged your credibility and your ability to earn much respect by making such erroneous blanket statements which were quite... incindinary.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Red Hand
Well, Ghengis, I am a high school teacher, so you can imagine my reaction to your summation of public education But I walked around for a bit, and feel a bit better now, although I can't let your post go without a little response.

I am sorry that your checkout experience was so bad, but really, how important is it that someone can add in their head? Really? I can do calculus in my head (well, a little anyway) but that doesn't make me smart (other things do, ha ha).

Mathematics forms the rudimentary rules of many concepts and abilites, not just crunching numbers. It can be used for logic (conclusion C= assumption A + assumption B, therefore if assumption B is proven to be false conclusion C may be false also), and likewise applied to everday life.

For example, my lawnmower isn't working(conclusion C is false). If my lawnmower was working it would be burning gas and running. It won't start and I discover it is out of gas(by breaking down the elements contributing to a working lawnmower and I focus on the elements most likely to be in error and therefore the cause of my problem).

Most people don't realize they use these basic mathematical principals, they just assume its common sense. The assumption that math IS ONLY GOOD FOR ADDING IN YOUR HEAD is an example of the kind of assumption that has led us to these problems. By concluding that the ability to perform basic functions is unneccesary for our children we are putting them at a disadvantage.

Originally posted by Red Hand
Where is this school that has no grades or tests? I would love to work there, it would sure cut down on my paperwork. Social Promotion (passing kids though grades 1-8 whether they have achieved "passing" grades or not) doesn't seem to work well that's true. But, it was instituted because holding kids back did not get them to improve.

Test and grades have begun a resurgence in our schools because of the lack of skills the students were graduating with.

I agree that holding students back is not a good solution. There needs to be a program similiar to what organizations like the Sylvan Learning Centers use to address what ever the difficulty the student has and allow them learn with their peers, albeit through a different technique.

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Sorry, but Eastern culture just isn't interesting! I cannot remember the names of Chinese leaders because they all seem the same. There are so many "Zhangs" "Chins" and "Lees" that it is very easy to confuse them. It's not as difficult to remember "Richard II" or "Louis XIV".

Much to my embarrasment I have to admit I once felt the exact same way. Then I found these wonderful games called Bandit Kings of Ancient China and Romance of the Three Kingdoms and suddenly my eyes were opened to the vast and interesting history and culture of the Orient.

Just wait, young Jedi. Your enlightment shall come one day.

[King of Rasslin]

It's not like just I know very little about Asian civs (and don't care about others). None of my friends know a lot about Asians, except for DBZ, ninjas, and sumo (popular stuff, not history). I was 2nd in my history class when it came to grades. We just don't learn a lot about unfamiar civilizations, it IS a small Christian school. It's sad that Asians didn't accept Christianity because of some corrupt leaders (most notably the popes). But that's not a good reason why we don't learn about them, but church history has a lot more influence on our everyday lives than Asian history. For example, the Protestant Reformation is why we don't believe our leaders are perfect and they all act with divine right and are absolutely perfect.

And so we have America. The transcontinental railroad wasn't built by Asians. Poor Irish immigrants came to America because of the potatoe famine. They helped fuel industrial growth, including railroads. European culture created stocks, giving everyday people small parts of a large company. China still doesn't have a middle class; they are all controled by the Communists. This hurts their standing with other civs, but their pure power evens it out. They have accomplishments, but they are more tangible (the great wall, 1.2+ billion people) than European ones (democracy, corporations, literature). The schools teach a lot about European accomlishments because they influence the schools more than Asian beliefs.

And how is Nguyen pronounced? Words/names like this are why the symbol system might not be such a bad idea, although the freedom to sound out words you don't know is very important. I would think Korea switching to the modern alphabet (a tech in Civ 3!) is a large credit to it.

[King of Rasslin]

"Romance of the Three Kingdoms"

Oh my gosh, this is huge! I saw a huge dictionary sized book about this, and I think I have more things to do in 3 years than to read all of that! The computer game isn't any better, as you need a lot of time on your hands to play it. I thought Civ 3 required a lot of time...

I wonder how long it took to right it. I think it would have to be written by a team of people over a long time, as it is too big for a single person to do.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
It's sad that Asians didn't accept Christianity because of some corrupt leaders (most notably the popes). But that's not a good reason why we don't learn about them, but church history has a lot more influence on our everyday lives than Asian history.

South Korea is MORE Christian than the US. 96-98% of Koreans are Christian. Their the most Christian of all nations with the possible exception of Vatican City.

Originally posted by King of Rasslin And so we have America. The transcontinental railroad wasn't built by Asians. Poor Irish immigrants came to America because of the potatoe famine. They helped fuel industrial growth, including railroads. European culture created stocks, giving everyday people small parts of a large company.

You are COMPLETELY wrong about the railroads. They WERE built by Asian immigrants and African Americans it was a hard, grueling job that most European descendants considered beneath them.

Originally posted by King of Rasslin They have accomplishments, but they are more tangible (the great wall, 1.2+ billion people) than European ones (democracy, corporations, literature). The schools teach a lot about European accomlishments because they influence the schools more than Asian beliefs.

Read the previous posts.

Originally posted by King of Rasslin And how is Nguyen pronounced?

It's pronounced like "win" and is an extremely common American name like Smith or Jones.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
We just don't learn a lot about unfamiar civilizations, it IS a small Christian school. It's sad that Asians didn't accept Christianity because of some corrupt leaders (most notably the popes).

If the Christian faith equals narrow-mindedness, and dictation of what you are allowed to know, then the Asians who didn't adopt that faith (some did though) should be applauded for their wisdom.
Hey, it's your civilization that is unfamiliar, the Asian civs have been around for ages.

And how is Nguyen pronounced?

The way it is written.
I'm guessing that nobody told you that the English language has done a number on the original pronounciation / representation of vowels, which severely handicaps you when it comes to other languages that use the Roman alphabet. But this particular example should be no trouble for you.

[yellfromhell]

Ghengis Farb,

[quote]:
"South Korea is MORE Christian than the US. 96-98% of Koreans are Christian. Their the most Christian of all nations with the possible exception of Vatican City".

I`ll be modest. ¿Are you sure? ¿Brazil? ¿México?

Hugs
Yell

[King of Rasslin]

The Catholic Church could almost claim it controls Mexico. I have yet to see a Protestant Mexican. The Mexicans were ruled by Spain for a long time, and that would explain why they are Catholic. Inquisitions killed off all the good guys.

Don't try to give me Ireland as an example of Christian terrorism either. I have talked with an Irish guy and he says that it isn't as bad as it used to be, and even then it was exagerrated. And there is no way any English speaker, or a speaker of any European language, could pronounce Nguyen as Win.

Do Asian people read from up to down? I have seen many examples of both left to right placement as well as up to down. I think it would be hard to write a language from right to left. It's a lot easier to make the simpler Roman figures.

[eric789]

Ghengis Farb

CIA's World Factbook tells different story...

Religions in Korea(year 2001)
Christian 49%, Buddhist 47%, Confucianist 3%, Shamanist, Chondogyo (Religion of the Heavenly Way), and other 1%

Maybe you were exposed to the most Christianised part of Korea while you're there. However, the figure still strikes me with surprise! Christian 49%? It's almost half of the population. I thought Buddihism was the dominant religion in Korea by big margin.

[Gangerolf]

those figures must be from south korea, they're very eager to adapt western ways (including christianity).
i would guess religion is frowned upon by the commie government in the north.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by eric789
Ghengis Farb

CIA's World Factbook tells different story...



Maybe you were exposed to the most Christianised part of Korea while you're there. However, the figure still strikes me with surprise! Christian 49%? It's almost half of the population. I thought Buddihism was the dominant religion in Korea by big margin.

Wow, you're absolutely right. That's an amazing turn around since 1999. In 1999 the Military Intelligence briefing before Korean Deployment and CIA factbook listed it at 96%. The History Channel special also labeled it as having the largest Christian percentage of any nation.

Four years can make a lot of difference. I stand corrected. The US percentage is 84% Christian. I always was taken back by that large number I wonder if someone made an error and reported Korean's Christian population percentage wrong and that threw off everyone else.

By the way, don't you just love the CIA factbook! That's probably the greasted internet site I've ever found, outside of Apolyton of course!

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
those figures must be from south korea, they're very eager to adapt western ways (including christianity).
i would guess religion is frowned upon by the commie government in the north.

All religion in the North is regulated by the government they have more than one type but its in name only to give the appearance of religious freedom.

North Korea is absolutely convinced that the US is out to get them. I am absolutely convinced they believe it. It's not a ruse or propaganda trick, their government really thinks the US has some plan to invade and assimilate their entire nation.

[GhengisFarb™]

And how is Nguyen pronounced?

Originally posted by Ribannah
The way it is written.
I'm guessing that nobody told you that the English language has done a number on the original pronounciation / representation of vowels, which severely handicaps you when it comes to other languages that use the Roman alphabet. But this particular example should be no trouble for you.

"Na-gu-yin"? That's a new one on me. I always pronounced it "win"

[Gangerolf]

It's not a ruse or propaganda trick, their government really thinks the US has some plan to invade and assimilate their entire nation

I don't think it's pure paranoia, i mean the US wouldn't mind if the regime in the north came to an end, would they?

[Q Classic]

And how is Nguyen pronounced? Words/names like this are why the symbol system might not be such a bad idea, although the freedom to sound out words you don't know is very important. I would think Korea switching to the modern alphabet (a tech in Civ 3!) is a large credit to it.

but see, the vietnamese (nguyen is a viet name) use an alphabet system, and it's very easy for them to sound out how to spell it in their language. also: japanese uses a syllabary; and thus can sound out foreign words. korea, using an alphabet, can also do so.
chinese, which is based on symbols, can also sound out foreign words using symbols; it's just that a note has to be made to help people realize that it's a phonetic use of the characters, rather than the literal.

about what you said about christianity being more influential in the west...
so now you're agreeing with me? that's what i've been saying all along. because the east hasn't "influenced" the west enough, the western textbooks rarely give a moment's consideration to the east.
this is why you think asia is unfamiliar. but believe me, the reason why the east did not accept many western notions, such as christiantiy, was because the west was unfamiliar. and even today, asian historical textbooks focus less on the west than the east-- but at least the asians come up knowing a helluva lot more about the whole world than americans.

And there is no way any English speaker, or a speaker of any European language, could pronounce Nguyen as Win.

sure there is. all you have to do is ask, genius. barring that, actually trying to learn some of their written language. which is latin-based, mind you, from the french.

Do Asian people read from up to down? I have seen many examples of both left to right placement as well as up to down. I think it would be hard to write a language from right to left. It's a lot easier to make the simpler Roman figures.

again, you show your western bias and ignorance.
asian languages (j, k, c) can be written in left-to-right lines from top to bottom of pages; or from top to bottom lines, going right-to-left across the page.
and it's not hard to write like that. the jews did it with their hebrew. as do the arabs.
it's a simple fact. the way languages started getting written down was a rather arbitrary process.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
I always pronounced it "win"

There! That wasn't so hard now, was it?

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Ribannah
There! That wasn't so hard now, was it?

Huh? You said that was how NOT to pronounce it!

Originally posted by King of Rasslin
And there is no way any English speaker, or a speaker of any European language, could pronounce Nguyen as Win.

So that does that mean you pronounce Mr. Jones as Mr. "John-ese"? Or William as "Will I Am". I'd imagine a lot of people you know are very irritated that you don't know how to pronounce their names.

The Korean name "Kim" is a bit easier to grasp though. At the risk of over-exageration I think between Kim and Nguyen you've pretty much got down the names of half the Korean population.

[Gangerolf]

i'm pretty sure Nguyen is a Vietnamese name...

[Q Classic]

genghis, nguyen is vietnamese. no korean has nguyen as his or her last name.

kim, park, lee, and choi, yi are by far the most common korean surnames. nguyen, being vietnamese, doesn't even appear.

you can often tell who is what based on their last names.

multiple sylalbles, ending in su or ai sounds, usu. japanese.
one syllable, kim, park, choi, cho, lee, yi, often korean.
one syllable, often with us, often chinese.
nguyen? viet.
mutliple sylalbles, with th sounds, often thai.

say again.

nguyen is NOT korean. it's vietnamese.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
kim, park, lee, and choi, yi are by far the most common korean surnames. nguyen, being vietnamese, doesn't even appear.

I've known quite a few Koreans by the name of Shin also.

[History Guy]

Ribannah-- Actually, in the late Middle Ages the majority of Chinese people were Christians until the Emperors banned the religion. Of course, now Christianity is the quickest growing religion in China. Indeed, the future of Christianity might be in the Far East.

[Drake Tungsten]

It will be interesting to see how Christianity will be adapted in Asian societies to meld with the existing cultures, especially the Confucian value system.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Huh? You said that was how NOT to pronounce it!

To people who pronounce Leicester as "Lester", it should be obvious that Nguyen should be pronounced as "Win".

History Guy, I think that 'majority' is somewhat exaggerated. In the cities that were open to western contact, yes. But there are a zillion of people in more remote parts of China that may not even have heard of Christianity yet.

I'm hoping that your prediction will not come true, I don't very much appreciate the aggressiveness and oppressiveness of religions like Christianity.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by History Guy
Ribannah-- Actually, in the late Middle Ages the majority of Chinese people were Christians until the Emperors banned the religion. Of course, now Christianity is the quickest growing religion in China. Indeed, the future of Christianity might be in the Far East.

Any prove for your outrageous assertion? If you had said "Mongolian ruling class" instead of Chinese people, then you might have some credibility.

[History Guy]

Your Lordship, I ask you kindly to refer to Mr. Damascene's book 'Christ the Eternal Tao'. Odd title, I will admit, and some other bits as well that are sort of unusual, but it does provide a good history of Christianity in China, and the repression.