The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[Saint Marcus]

I'll let you do the research since I already have.

Ok, here's a start. Did some checking on the Vikings...and they were far from being barbaric and disruptive as you said. Feel free to respond.

It is also not possible to gauge how disruptive and hostile the Vikings were. Archaeological evidence reveals a culture that was the most advanced in Europe in the manufacture of arms and jewelry, as well as shipbuilding. Many styles of Viking ships were adopted by other European powers, most notably Alfred the Great of Wessex. The Vikings also displayed an ability to mobilize economic resources and to dominate a hostile landscape. These abilities can be seen in their great fortified camps, like that at Visby in Sweden, where hundreds of soldiers and traders lived. Additionally, the Vikings fostered commerce, founding many prominent trading centers in England (Wessex), Ireland (Dublin) and France (Normandy). Furthermore, the Vikings set foot on lands where no human has ever said foot on.

In addition, the Vikings created a rich body of vernacular literature in which they celebrated their heroic past. The Icelandic sagas represent a vast collection of both stories and histories. Some concern the great leaders of heroic days and the kings of the 11th and 12th centuries; many others deal with the families, feuds, and changing fortunes of the petty chieftains of Icelandic farmsteads and valleys in the 13th and 14th centuries. The more historical sagas describe what is known about the colonization of Iceland, the voyages to North America, and the rise of the powerful kings who led the efforts toward conversion and political consolidation. The Poetic Edda of Snorri Sturluson, who wrote in the early 1200s, portrays pre-Christian Viking history and mythology.

Signs of the Viking influence are found in the languages, vocabulary, and place-names of the areas in which they settled. These offer clues regarding the density of migration, the ease of assimilation, and the preservation of distinct northern institutions and usages. An early form of popular or open government can be seen in the open air Althing of Iceland, where the free farmers came to voice complaints, resolve feuds, and enunciate and interpret the law for free men and their families and dependents. Icelanders view this as the earliest form of parliamentary government in Europe. The jury of English common law was a direct outgrowth of Viking ideas about community obligations and sworn investigations, both vital steps in building a civil society.

[Saint Marcus]

In other words, the Vikings had a lot more influence than the Koreans ever had. And not only destructive, as you said. Just read this extract and still try to claim that the Vikings are simply a bunch of destructive conquerers with little culture and civilization. That's just a stereotype.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Mark L
Ok, here's a start. Did some checking on the Vikings...and they were far from being barbaric and disruptive as you said. Feel free to respond.

Interesting. Would you mention the source, please? Thank you in advance

[Saint Marcus]

Encarta.

Contributed By:
Joel T. Rosenthal, B.A., M.A., Ph.D.
Professor of History, State University of New York at Stony Brook.

[yin26]

First, I congratulate you find a good passage for us to look at.

Vikings had a lot more influence than the Koreans ever had.

Yes, and most of it negative. Sure, you can find things they did well. But they are a raiding civ. Hitler had an "influence" as well. Am I saying the Vikings were like Hitler? No. Am I saying that they tore across their neighbors territories pillaging and raping along the way? Absolutely. THAT is the primary influence...let's take a closer look:

It is also not possible to gauge how disruptive and hostile the Vikings were.

Read: "So let's avoid talking about how disruptive they were." This is called revisionist history. There are so many accounts of bloodshed at Vikings' hands this statement is rather sad.

Archaeological evidence reveals a culture that was the most advanced in Europe in the manufacture of arms and jewelry, as well as shipbuilding.

Arms = weapons of war. Yes, we know.

Jewelry = hardly anything to shape the world.

Shipbuilding = Yes, their ship designs made a kinds of exploration and trade possible. That is not in doubt. Comparable to the printing press? Certainly. More influencial in civilized way? Would make a good debate, for sure. In the long run, too close to call, I think.

created a rich body of vernacular literature in which they celebrated their heroic past.

Korea has the same and MORE of it. Why? Priting press, once again. And the oldest woodblock...oldest PRINTED...book on earth from the 8th century. Vikings don't have it until the 11th.

Signs of the Viking influence are found in the languages, vocabulary, and place-names of the areas in which they settled.

A natural side-effect of killing people and stealing their stuff. While Korean hasn't influenced other languages, its written form is considered perhaps the best EVER devised.

The jury of English common law was a direct outgrowth of Viking ideas about community obligations and sworn investigations, both vital steps in building a civil society.

I had not heard of this before. Could be a stretch, but if not, this IS significant. But remember that Korea had a civil society about 500 years before anything like this in Europe...a civil society that included community obligations and alliegience to the king.

So, you have raised some good points, and I applaud you. If you would like to take on my counter-comments, please do. I rather enjoy how we are taking this in the right direction.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Mark L
BTW, the colors in the current Maltese flag are a reminder of their Norman past (red and white being the colors they wore).

I was under the impression that the colours of the flag were more a reminder of the colours the Knights of the Order of St. John wore. They ruled the island from 1530-1798. Their symbol was a white cross on red background.

[yin26]

Ah, I missed a few important things:

First, Korean is the basis for the Japanese language.

Second, the passage you gave on the Vikings is, from my understanding, part of a rather new attempt to 're-evaluate' the Vikings and downplay their reputation as raiders. That line of research is yet to be given much support in general. So while it is no doubt giving a bit more balanced view of the Vikings, the overwhelming historical understanding and historical evidence is that Vikings were the scariest thing on God's Holy Earth in their time...again, mainly by destroying.

As you have shown, they brought with them a few good side-effects, but don't ignore the wave looking at the calm sea behind it.

[Saint Marcus]

Yes, and most of it negative.

Same could be said for the German civ, who troughout history have had a big positive influence in the world, but mostly a very negative one. Consider all they wars they fought, they started both WW1 (with the Austrians) and WW2.

Sure, you can find things they did well. But they are a raiding civ.

That's a big a stereo type as saying Korea was a shadow of China/Japan.

Am I saying that they tore across their neighbors territories pillaging and raping along the way? Absolutely.

Just about every nation did that in those during times of war. Nothing remarkable. Also, the Vikings were originally traders and farmers, not conquerers.

Read: "So let's avoid talking about how disruptive they were." This is called revisionist history. There are so many accounts of bloodshed at Vikings' hands this statement is rather sad.

So you have a PhD in Scandinavian history? This is written down in MS Encarta...can't say the same for all the stuff you claim about the Koreans. BTW, every nation has many accounts of bloodshed at their own hands.

Shipbuilding = Yes, their ship designs made a kinds of exploration and trade possible. That is not in doubt. Comparable to the printing press? Certainly. More influencial in civilized way? Would make a good debate, for sure. In the long run, too close to call, I think.

Close call indeed. The Viking's influence in shipbuilding certainly had a huge impact on the world.

But remember that Korea had a civil society about 500 years before anything like this in Europe...a civil society that included community obligations and alliegience to the king.

Alliegience to a king is very common in many nations all over the world, including early Europe. And community obligations isn't exactly a mayor achievement, considering even the most primitive native americans had this too. Also, why does it matter in what timeframe it is? Sure in ancient times the Koreans beat most Europeans, but after that Europe wins hands down.

I was under the impression that the colours of the flag were more a reminder of the colours the Knights of the Order of St. John wore. They ruled the island from 1530-1798. Their symbol was a white cross on red background.

Partly true. Maltese flag is influenced by both the Normans and Hospitaliers. The Hospitaliers used the colors blue and white, not red and white. That are Norman colors. When Malta declare independence from Britain they took the Cross from the Knights of St.John, and used the colors from the Normans who ruled the country in early medieval times.

First, Korean is the basis for the Japanese language.

And your point is? The Viking language is the basis for the Danish, Swedish, Finnish and Norwegian language.

Second, the passage you gave on the Vikings is, from my understanding, part of a rather new attempt to 're-evaluate' the Vikings and downplay their reputation as raiders. That line of research is yet to be given much support in general.

It is written down in MS Encarta for crying out loud. How much more support does one need?

As you have shown, they brought with them a few good side-effects, but don't ignore the wave looking at the calm sea behind it.

So why is that bad? Sure, it was bad then, but they played an important part in history, are cerainly not "barbarians", and deserve to be included in Civ3 for their influence in the world and their rich culture.

[yin26]

It is written down in MS Encarta for crying out loud. How much more support does one need?

LOL! I don't mean to laugh, but that is funny. I have no idea of your educational background, so please correct me if I am wrong: But that sounds like something a high school student would say after searching the free CD that came with his computer.

If you want to be sure of yourself, check MULTIPLE sources. MS Encarta is hardly something to stake your life on. There is a wealth of information on the Vikings. If you care to keep searching, you will see what I mean.

As for the Korean language being the basis of the Japanese language, your quote points to the Viking language influencing other language. Well, so has Korean. If you want to point at Japan as a major nation, just remember where the roots of its language came from. This is a discussion about one culture influencing the other, right?

As for the Germans, I don't see their leaders visiting a shrine for Nazi war criminals, do you? How the two nations dealt with their pasts is the source of a lot of what I am posting here. If Japan's leadership would own up to its past and stop worshipping the kinds of images I posted, I would not have used up so much time talking about Japan.

[Saint Marcus]

Some research that goes against your claims. Also from Encarta.

The earliest known Korean state was Old Choson, in what is now northwestern Korea and southern Northeast China; it was conquered by the Han Chinese in 108 BC. Thereafter the Chinese set up military outposts in Korea that helped spread Chinese culture and civilization. The first of the three main Korean kingdoms to come in contact with the spreading Chinese influence was Koguryo, which emerged in the 1st century BC in the north. Paekche in the southwest and Silla in the southeast, which emerged in the 3rd and the 4th century AD, respectively, had contact with China as well. To a degree these kingdoms accepted Buddhism, Confucianism, and most importantly, Chinese characters as a means of communication and education.

So the Chinese shaped the early Korean culture. Korea ows it's culture to China.

Kaya and Japan had particularly close ties, and for many years Japanese historians depicted Kaya as a Japanese-dominated kingdom. Korean scholars have long rejected that view, and most modern historians are divided as to which kingdom, if either, dominated the other.

So your claims that Japan was mainly influenced by Korea instead of the other way around is not commonly accepted. Japan probably influenced the Koreans just as much.

The full flowering of Koryo culture took place in the 1100s. It was marked by a stable central government, influenced by Chinese political institutions and methods;

More Chinese influence.

Choson's early kings and its elite class of Confucianists established a social and political structure that withstood all challenges until 1910, achieving one of the longest periods of domination by a single dynasty in world history. Although heavily influenced by Chinese culture, Choson maintained a distinctive identity, as illustrated by its own unique alphabet, invented in 1446 by King Sejong.

Even more Chinese influence. Even "heavily" this time.

During the 17th and 18th centuries Choson enjoyed generally able kings and competent administration, although the court periodically witnessed factional struggles. Socially, the elite excelled at practicing the principles of Confucianism, as inspired by the Neo-Confucian movement of China.

And yet again the Chinese influencing Korea. it seems the Koreans are just a mix of the Japenese and, mostly, Chinese cultures.

Furthermore, Korea was invaded and conqueredby the Chinese, Mongols, Manchuns and Japanese (twice). They were conquered at least 5 times!! Not a very powerful nation, were they?

[Saint Marcus]

LOL! I don't mean to laugh, but that is funny. I have no idea of your educational background, so please correct me if I am wrong: But that sounds like something a high school student would say after searching the free CD that came with his computer.

MS Encarta is commonly known to be one of the best non-academic encyclopedias availiable. Furtermore, I'm in university studying philosophy, but can't get to my universities library at the moment. Plus, the Vikings are not "my" civ, so I'm not going to spend the same amount of time you did on researching the Koreans. I could research the dutch, but that would be quite pointless since they'd beat the Koreans hands down. Though they're still not worthy of a place among the top 16, I'm realistic.

[yin26]

So the Chinese shaped the early Korean culture. Korea ows it's culture to China.

Your first statement is right. Your second one is not. Korea had a culture of its own independent of China. As I have said, Korea accepted it "Little Brother" status with China as a matter of survival and sound policy.

Japan probably influenced the Koreans just as much.

After Korea had already given Japan a huge cultural road map (which in turn was heavily influenced by China as we said), this became possible mainly after Japan was cracked open like a nut by Western powers.

Socially, the elite excelled at practicing the principles of Confucianism, as inspired by the Neo-Confucian movement of China.

Notice the word 'inspired.' Then consider another of your own quotes:

Although heavily influenced by Chinese culture, Choson maintained a distinctive identity, as illustrated by its own unique alphabet, invented in 1446 by King Sejong.

So don't overdo this Korea is a Chinese knock-off thing. It's simply wrong.

Furthermore, Korea was invaded and conqueredby the Chinese, Mongols, Manchuns and Japanese (twice). They were conquered at least 5 times!! Not a very powerful nation, were they?

In fact, China nearly broke itself trying to conquer Korea. So rather than continue such efforts, China realized it benefitted both sides much better to have peaceful trade and cultural exchange. Also, Korea served China as a natural buffer and close friend. The Mongol influence also took over China and a HUGE landmass...so this point is a bit silly to make in terms of Korea being weak. And Japan's ability and manner of conquering Korea (and in the Nanjing Massacre) has been covered many times by me here.

Again, you are over-reaching. Korea has survived 1,000 attacks in 2,000 years. Meanwhile, where are the Egyptians, Romans, Incans...? Yes, talk to me about a powerful nation.

[yin26]

one of the best non-academic encyclopedias availiable

You might want to underscore the "non"-academic part. It's a starter kit, and not always a good one.

I'm not going to spend the same amount of time you did on researching the Koreans.

Fair enough. Then realize you might be missing some very important information.

I could research the dutch, but that would be quite pointless since they'd beat the Koreans hands down.

Confident for a man who admits to not doing the research.

[yin26]

By the way, I commend you for AT LEAST looking at some source (even if not a very comprehensive one) to try to debate your point. That puts you in an elite category here on Poly. I hope you encourage yourself to dig deeper and REALLY make this fun.

[Saint Marcus]

Korea has survived 1,000 attacks in 2,000 years. Meanwhile, where are the Egyptians, Romans, Incans...? Yes, talk to me about a powerful nation.

Egypt is still around

Rome now is Italy. And Rome's influence survived for a hell of a long time in the form of the Byzantines and the Rennaisance.

Incans? Do some checking on them if you will. You'll find out that their culture is still very much alive in Peru.

And Korea? It didn't survive anymore than any other ancient nation. It's even split in two now.

[yin26]

You know that I mean where are those cultures in as uninterrupted a civilation as Korea. Nowhere. Sure, their influence is still alive and strong. But that's not the same thing.

And Korea? It didn't survive anymore than any other ancient nation.

Wow. Your most uninformed statement yet. Rethink that statement if you like.

It's even split in two now.

Yes, and this is tragic. But that is not the END of the Korean civilization. By the way, care to guess Japan's role in this division? Again I mention Japan because its leadership categorically denies any such harm...

[yin26]

Well, I am off for the day. I salute your efforts so far. But until and unless you do more research, I can't really give much weight to your conjectures. Surely you understand. However, you have a good start going here...and I will gladly look at any deeper research you might do, and I hope to learn from it just as I hope you have learned a great deal about Korea.

I'm realistic.

By the way, I really want you to consider how "I won't do the research" and "I'm realistic" go together? If you mean by 'realistic' that Firaxis won't put anything but the expected civs in, the I understand you. But if you mean 'realistic' in the sense that you feel your thoughts are based on historical facts, clearly that isn't true.

One of the great moments on Poly is when somebody finally realizes that a lot of what they have been thinking is, in the end, NOT based on facts and the hard work of research. It is at that point that you must either admit that you don't really know what you are talking about OR go out there and inform yourself from a variety of sources.

Of course, this is 'just a gaming site,' but why can't it serve to get you fired up to fill in some of the gaps in your view of the world. I certainly have many such gaps and look forward to closing them as much as possible.

[Saint Marcus]

Ho there horsie. Let's backtrack for a sec. Let's go back to your original claim.

Your claim:

Korea deserves to be among the 16 civs in civ3

Your arguments:

1. Korea has an old and unique culture that survives till this day
2. Korea's language is the basis for Japan's language
3. The Koreans invented the Ironclad
4. The Koreans invented the printing press

That are your reasons for wanting Korea in Civ3. Now let's not talk about Holland or Norway or China or Japan or Germany in detail. Just Korea. Now, let me get over your arguments one by one.

1. True. Great accomplishment, no doubt. Something to be proud off, for sure. However, there are dozens of nations who can make the same claims.

2. Ok, could very well be, I believe you. However, Korea's language was based on Chinese. Also, laying the basis for one other language isn't a real accomplishment. Just look at the masive influence the German, Latin and Greek languages had. Korea's influence compared to those is rather minimal.

3. True, but Korea's Ironclad wasn't fitted with a steam engine like the American one. Furthermore, Korea's Ironclad wasn't more than a Trireme-like ship fitted with Iron Armor. So I wouldn't exactly call it an Ironclad, since Ironclads are associated with Steam Engine powered battleships. Also, Korea did almost nothing with this technology, and nobody even copied it. It's just a really nice, but in the end unimportant invention like so many others in the history of the world.

4. This one is significant. No doubt about that. But again, Korea did not revolutionise the world with this. Germany deserves credit for that one. Let's take another example...glass. An important invention, right? Without glass a lot of things could never exist the way they are now, the invention of glass clearly had a huge influence on the world. Do you know who invented glass? Well, they're not in Civ3...it's the Phoenicians. And why aren't they in Civ3? Cause their invention didn't revolutionise the world. Other nations used their invention and improved on it, and they did revolutionise the world. Same can be said for the invention of cement by the Byzantines (I believe).

Conclusion:

Korea is a worthy civilization...just not worthy for a top 16 spot.


Oh, one more thing. Before you go saying that other nation's culture didn't survive till this day let me give you some examples. Turks, Greeks, Serbs (yes, the Serbs), Dutch (Batavians and Frisians), France (Francs), Chinese, Japanese, Icelanders (Normans), Maltese (yes, even they), Arabs, etc, etc, etc. Certainly, a lot of cultures have been lost forever, like the Carthagians and Babylonians...but many of them still remain, even visibly (just take the Serbs). And please don't ask me to explain the complete history of the Serbian culture...that takes forever! (did a graduation paper about it...57 pages long)

Face it Yin...Korea isn't one of the top 16 civs of all times. Deal with it

[YefeiPi]

Imran:

I'm sorry your ulterior motive of trying to include the Koreans in the game over the Japanese has failed (actually I'm not sorry), but you just have to accept it. The Koreans just aren't WORTH being in Civ3!!!

Imran, please calm down. I understand why you place Japanese over Koreans because after all, they gave you video games to play and anime to watch. I can also understand your ignorance about what the Japanese have done to Asian countries, since you are an American (I might be wrong about this). However, if Japanese were included as a playable civ in Civ3 because of what they had done in WW, then I would strongly disagree with having them.

How about let's look at Japan from a civilization standpoint. Besides the monstrous atrocities Japan has committed during the world war. What other achievements does it have that are worthy to be mentioned? Throughout its ancient history, it's like a province of China, using the same language, sharing the same culture, and generally didn't do much. I mean what important inventions or contributions did this country give to the world besides misery and pain. (Before they invented the Video games and their electronic gadgets of course).

So from a civilization standpoint, Japan hasn't achieved much in the past and so why it is included besides Korea is something people have to ask Firaxis.

However, I do believe, when Japan is stripped of its World war atrocities, it's not got much left to deserve a place in Civ3. Then again, if it is included for the same reason, well... it's probably a marketing choice made by Firaxis.

[yin26]

However, Korea's language was based on Chinese.

Wrong. Korea's language is a native one. However, Korean scholars (representing a VERY limited percent of the Korean people) were sent to China on periodic trips for cultural exchange and study. When I mentioned earlier that 70% of Korean vocabulary is from Chinese, I should explain that more:

** That 70% is viturally all for scholarly words, which a vast number of Koreans don't use and wouldn't understand on first hearing anyway.

** Since the Chinese pronunciation of those words didn't fit the native Korean pronunciation (Chinese is tonal, Korean is not), they made their own pronunciation. Only the Chinese character used is the same, but since learning Chinese characters is considered by many Koreans (especially the younger generation) to be a waste of time, even that influence is waning.

** King Sejong saw that the vast majority of his subjects could not and likely would not ever use Chinese characters, so he had a group of his scholars invent Hangul.

As for your telling me to "deal with it," I can handle the fact that if we set out all the civs that ever were, Korea by many measures might not be in the top 16. This is fine. However, Korea is certainly ahead of Japan...it is only the last 2 centuries where the dynamic changed, so I don't blame Firaxis for going with what the West's experiences were the past two centuries. This is natural.

I wonder: Did you learn anything about Korea that surprised you? It is an honest question. I am prepared to shake hands and salute you for a debate well done, but I wonder if this thread at all made you wonder why your history courses haven't represented Korea more clearly?

History goes to the victor, as they say, and Korea's history has been buried. It will resurface, however, which I think will help people have a much more balanced view of world and particularly Asian history.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Mark L

Partly true. Maltese flag is influenced by both the Normans and Hospitaliers. The Hospitaliers used the colors blue and white, not red and white. That are Norman colors. When Malta declare independence from Britain they took the Cross from the Knights of St.John, and used the colors from the Normans who ruled the country in early medieval times.

OK, you are right about the origin of the flag's colours. Legend has it that the original white and red come from the Norman Count Roger's flag wich was chequered in white and red. Before he left Malta he cut out a corner and gave it to the Maltese.

But I'm still 99,99% sure the Knights of St John also used the colours red & white (NOT blue%white), at least in their uniforms and symbols. Here's their flag: (no it's not the danish flag)

[Saint Marcus]

But I'm still 99,99% sure the Knights of St John also used the colours red & white (NOT blue%white), at least in their uniforms and symbols. Here's their flag: (no it's not the danish flag)

I checked, you're right. Red and white was also used by the Hospitaliers, along with blue and white. Though the origins of the colors in the flag come from the Normans, as you have said.

As for your telling me to "deal with it," I can handle the fact that if we set out all the civs that ever were, Korea by many measures might not be in the top 16. This is fine. However, Korea is certainly ahead of Japan...it is only the last 2 centuries where the dynamic changed, so I don't blame Firaxis for going with what the West's experiences were the past two centuries. This is natural.

Hmm, I thought this thread was about including Korea in Civ3, and not if Korea is really "better" than Japan. Franky, IMHO neither the Koreans, nor the Japanese would be included Both aren't worthy of a top 16 spot.

I wonder: Did you learn anything about Korea that surprised you? It is an honest question. I am prepared to shake hands and salute you for a debate well done, but I wonder if this thread at all made you wonder why your history courses haven't represented Korea more clearly?

Sure I learned some new, but nothing mind blowing cause I'm not all that interested in Asian history to be honest And our history courses may not give a lot of information about Korea, they also give little information about Japan (the sole exception being WW2). Our history textbooks usually only cover Indian and Chinese history, other Asian nations usually don't get more than a paragraph at most (again, the only exception being WW2 Japan). The history we learn in courses mostly covers the ancient powers (Egypt, Greece, Persia, Rome, China, India), the Middle East (Turks, Arabs, Israeli), the USA and Europe (obviously). The only times other countries come up is when they were European colonies (Americas, Africa, South Asia...though only a handful of colonies was really covered, most were also left out) or when they conquered a large area (Mongols, Japanese). Since Korea is not an ancient power, is not located in the middle east or in Europe, wasn't a European colony and didn't conquer it's neighbours. To put it bluntly, Europeans couldn't care less about the history and culture of Korea, Mali or Guatamala. More than a footnote in the annals of history in Europe they'll never get.

[yin26]

More than a footnote in the annals of history in Europe they'll never get.

And the West will remain woefully ignorant of the world beyond itself, I'm afraid. I encountered this personally at UCLA and challenged my professors routinely. An example:

"The first novel was written in blah blah blah century."

"Professor: Isn't the 'Tales of Genji' written in Japan in the 11th century the first novel written?"

*clears throat and turns red "Weeeelll, this is a class about WESTERN literature, so I assume when I say 'first novel,' you'll know what I mean."

No professor. I don't. Neither do any of the other students.

Pathetic.

MarkL: Don't settle. If you want half the facts and half the truth, then by all means only learn about half the world. I would expect a serious philosopher, however, to be more intellectually honest.

Tale of Genji info: http://jin.jcic.or.jp/kidsweb/japan/d/q1.html

[Saint Marcus]

And the West will remain woefully ignorant of the world beyond itself, I'm afraid.

Tell me, do they teach anythig about the Habsburgers in Korea? Korea's textbooks probably don't go much further than Asia either. Also, "ignorance" is better than changing the facts. In Japanese schoolbooks WW2 is justified...certainly not something you'll see in Germany. And China and North Korea are a hundred times worse than that.

MarkL: Don't settle. If you want half the facts and half the truth, then by all means only learn about half the world.

Can't learn everything...have to filter some out

I would expect a serious philosopher, however, to be more intellectually honest.

Sadly, when it comes to philosophy, Asia is stuck in the middle ages. Modern philosophy is something that isn't often found in non-western countries.

[yin26]

Sadly, when it comes to philosophy, Asia is stuck in the middle ages. Modern philosophy is something that isn't often found in non-western countries.

I think you understand I am talking about YOUR intellectual standards, not Asian philosophy. Filtering out is fine. Coming to conclusions based on what you know to be massively missing information is not.

As for your other points, yes, as I have argued, the Japanese textbooks and most textsbooks from most contries are horribly "filtered." I agree.

Does that mean you should throw up YOUR hands and remain ignorant? It is, of course, your choice to make.

[yin26]

So let's recap.

Mark L says:

** He will not do the research, knowing full well his schools haven't taught him.
** He is 'not interested' in Asia anyway and is happy to 'filter' out their history.

And yet, he feels qualified to rank the world's top 16 civs. Is that arrogance or stupidity? He doesn't seem stupid, so it must be the first. I hope he won't be surprised when people from the non-Western world find him rather repulsive when he talks on with his great knowledge of world civilizations.

Mark: I certainly hope your professors demand more from you...and from somebody studying "Modern philosophy" (which you intimate is so superior to that of Asia's...as if you'd know...being the Asia expert you are), admitting you are talking out of your a$$ and yet continuing to rank things you don't understand makes you:

A TROLL

I think we're done as far as this thread is concerned. If you want to go educate yourself and come back here, I'll glady see you then. Take care.

P.S. In contrast, I never said Korea is a 'top 16' blah blah blah. What I DID say is that Korea has done more for the world than Japan. I've also said that Korea is NOT a China knock-off. And I've pointed out several major accomplishments from a Korean civ that continues to do great things.

[ruckus9]

From observing this thread I would have to say, MarkL, that you do come off sounding quite narrow-minded and arrogant for a philosopher. I don't mean this as an insult; I don't know anyone here personally so I can't judge. I just wanted to point out that you seem to be implying through your posts that only Europeans have really accomplished anything and are the only ones worthy of being in the top 16 or whatever in Civ 3.

.

Franky, IMHO neither the Koreans, nor the Japanese would be included Both aren't worthy of a top 16 spot.

If there is no Japan or Korea then that only leaves us with China to represent far eastern Asia. I hardly think that's right.

Anyway I'm just a highschool kid though and not even a very studious one (just a little bit more when it comes to history). But I do try to keep an openmind even though it may lead to me being sometimes TOO easily convinced by another's arguments. That's all.

[Saint Marcus]

"Modern philosophy" (which you intimate is so superior to that of Asia's...as if you'd know...being the Asia expert you are),

If you'd understood anything about philosophy after the middle ages you'd find out that non-western philosophers have virtually nothing to contribute to philosophical discussions. Where is the Asian Kant? Or the Asian Hegel? Or the Asian Wittgenstein? They simply don't exist. There aren't any great philosophers from Asia in industrial times.

And yet, he feels qualified to rank the world's top 16 civs. Is that arrogance or stupidity? He doesn't seem stupid, so it must be the first. I hope he won't be surprised when people from the non-Western world find him rather repulsive when he talks on with his great knowledge of world civilizations.

Hmm. I'm afraid you got things a bit wrong. YOU provided the facts of the Korean civ, and based on that it's clear that they can't be compared with most other civs. Why should I do the research in Korean history when you provide it for me? Makes no sense at all

Mark: I certainly hope your professors demand more from you

No they don't. In the philosophical world Asian nations simply are considered to be too backward.

A TROLL

My my...the maturity of your reply is amazing. Anyway, I can say that you are just an ignorant nationalist and an anti-japanese bigot...but I won't lower myself to your level.

And I've pointed out several major accomplishments from a Korean civ that continues to do great things.

One mayor accomplishment.
What great things? It's economy is crap (both north and south) and half of Korea is starving under the commies.

Does that mean you should throw up YOUR hands and remain ignorant? It is, of course, your choice to make.

You are also quite ignorant when it comes to Viking/Norman history. But now we're at it...how much do YOU know about Holland?

[yin26]

It's economy is crap

Can't remember back to the 13th largest economy in the world, eh?

Anyway, do you know what a troll is?: Somebody who is just talking to get a rise out of somebody. You admit you know only part of the world's history yet claim to know which civs are Top 16. That's a troll.

they can't be compared with most other civs.

And yet you provide no good evidence to the contrary. Ah, forget. The library is closed.

"I certainly hope your professors demand more from you."

No they don't. In the philosophical world Asian nations simply are considered to be too backward.

That makes no sense. Language barrier? I'll rephrase: "I hope your professors don't let you go around spouting things as if you actually know what you are talking about when you yourself admit to ignoring a good half of the facts." Clear?

ignorant nationalist and an anti-japanese bigot

"ignorant" -- hmmm, you've taken on that title on your own with all your 'filtering' I'd say.

"nationalist" -- Well, I'm not Korean...and I love my native United States, so look for another word.

"anti-Japanese" -- anti-Japanese right-wing goverment that visits the burial sites of convicted war criminals, you bet. Anti-Japanese propoganda that looks to hide the past, you bet. Anti-Japanese on a personal basis. Nope.

"bigot" -- "a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices" Obstinate? A bit. Intolerantly? Perhaps. Unwilling to change my views given solid facts to the contrary? No way. Unfortunately your Encarta CD is only so big, I guess.

You are also quite ignorant when it comes to Viking/Norman history.

Why, cause I don't buy your 30 second search on the Encarta CD? Did you even know that his opinion is a minority, revisionist one? Sorry, I know. The library is still closed.

how much do YOU know about Holland?

How much do you want to know? You had better believe that if I were going to start deriding Holland, I'd at least do MYSELF the favor of going and researching more about it. Oh, but they must not teach basic research in your ultra-cutting-edge philophy classes. Good thing for you, I guess.

[yin26]

Since you had to prove your ignorance again, here are some economic comparisons, Neatherlands v S. Korea:

Neatherlands:

GDP: purchasing power parity - $365.1 billion (1999 est.)

GDP - real growth rate: 3.4% (1999 est.)

S.Korea

GDP: purchasing power parity - $625.7 billion (1999 est.)

GDP - real growth rate: 10% (1999 est.)

Hmmmm. Let's see. S.Korea's economy is "crap" yet it has nearly twice the GDP purchasing power parity and nearly 3 times the GDP real growth rate. Look what happens when you spout crap without knowing your facts first.

Care to keep going?