The AI Always Beats Me To (fill in the blank)

[Everyman]

1. King Richard's Crusade. It would be nice to get it once in a while but it seems to be a high priority wonder for the AI.

2. Lighthouse. Not a high priority for me (it ranks below Magellan, which is not saying much) so I let the AI have it.

3. Pyramids. Ouch. I hate it when that happens.

4. Colossus. Another oucher. I usually try to build it in the same city as Hanging Gardens but it means a later start on Colossus.

[Ming]

Gee... the only thing the AI beats me to (besides wonders I have no intention of every building) is being eliminated

[Lefty Scaevola]

Exactly, Ming, except for my first OCC game.

[Smash]

On deity level the AI usually beats me to size 2

[Ming]

Only because the AI cheats

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Well, I don't dwell at the lofty heights of Ming, Lefty, and company (yet!), so I'll play:

1) The pyramids. Admittedly, they are a lower priority for me than the Colossus and the Gardens, and I usually get those. But it's been a long time since I was able to make them my third wonder, and I've stopped trying.

2) Engineering. I don't care about King Richard's, but the AI always gets engineering before I do and, since I like to build Leo's, it always makes me panic a bit. And since the AI likes to build King Richard's, it is very hard to get it in a trade.

3) Railroad/Darwin's Voyage/Industrialization/Women's Suffrage. I'm usually way ahead in science by this point, but have generally let my military techs lag and now have to go mop them up. Plus, since I have the Gardens, I don't like to cancel them too soon. As a result, I always get beaten to these, which is kind of a pain because I always play as a science-focused democracy. I've stopped trying, and just go for the UN instead (for some reason, the AI almost never researches communism right after industrialization).

4) AC in OCC. (But i'm getting closer!)

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Theben]

The AI always beats me to having a large army with no clear purpose, other than wandering about and soaking up support costs. I never seem to get there...

[Dry]

- trigger the huts
How #@*! does he support such a huge army of wandering units? When I do the same I rapidly get too much units supported by one city. Not to say that sometimes this city is empty/rioting, because I didn't had the time to get one or more of those units back 'home'.

- Most early wonders (HG and GL are the 2 exceptions), KRC, Copernic, Eiffel.
Oh, yes, I was about to forget Manhattan, but it is because I usually don't care: the city where it is build will soon or later be mine.

- build sewers/univ./colosseum in cities of size 2.

- fortify his land like hell.

And more things, but they are part the endless list of AI cheats like:
- Find me and my units.
At start he always has a unit making a bee-line for my civ.
War: he always has ESP (hawacs?) about where are my units. This makes for me early wars nearly impossible.
[This message has been edited by Dry (edited February 22, 2001).]

[Blaupanzer]

Electricity. This cancels something worth having, and I therefore never manage to get the first destroyer in the water. It's sort of uncanny how the AI, almost always way behind in science, manages to get this tech before I do. Enough to make one paranoid.

[Edward]

Everyman,

You might find a strategy I found on this site to be helpful to your wonder building. Use only caravans to build your wonders. First, and most importantly, caravan shields can be rush built at about half the price of wonder shields (if you use incremental rush buying*). Second, you get to apply shields from many or all of your cities to building the wonder. Third, if a caravan-building city comes under attack, it can quickly switch to a unit for defense or counter attack (you'd lose a lot of shields doing this with a wonder-building city). Fourth, you don't have to worry about beefing up that early super city with temples and martial law units to prepare it for the long wonder building process. Fifth, you can make the caravans even before you have the tech for the wonder (then you can "build" it in one turn when you do get the tech).

In my early game I usually set science to max and churn out as many settlers as possible (mixed in with warriors for early exploration and containing the AI's expansion). My biggest goal is to build as many new cities as possible.

My first desired tech is Monarchy. The second is Trade. As you might realize, you need to get Trade VERY early if it's to be of any use to you in getting your favorite early wonders. You can't research techs off the Monarchy/Trade path unless forced to.

While getting Trade, you may have picked up Pottery, Bronze Working, or Masonry when a Monarchy/Trade tech wasn't available. If not, you might be able to trade for your first wonder tech (I've found the AI to be pretty amenable to trading techs in the early game).

Now set taxes to max and have all your cities build caravans. You'll need 4 caravans for every early wonder you have the tech for and want to build.

*You can incrementally rush buy caravans as follows: First buy a warrior. On the same turn in the same city switch to a phalanx or horseman and buy it. Still on the same turn build a diplomat (or some other 30 shield unit). Still on the same turn buy a settler. Now switch to a caravan. At this point you can finish off the caravan or let the city finish it off "naturally" in a few turns. Wonders cost 4 coins for every shield. Unit's shields start at 2 coins (or is it 2.5?) per shield and get more expensive the more shields you're trying to buy at once. Since we only ever buy one row of shields at a time, the price per shield always comes in at 2 per shield. Is this cheating? Perhaps.

When three caravans arrive at your chosen wonder city (who has yet to start the wonder - it's just been building caravans too), incrementally rush build the caravan that's under construction in that city. At the beginning of your next turn, switch to building the desired wonder there and move in the caravans.

Make sure to switch back to max science after you've built all the available wonders you want. Now it's time to expand more, research the next wonder tech, and repeat the process.

[George Garrett]

I'm very fortunate - if I go after a Wonder that another AI civ has started, like as not, that civ will give up on it, and switch to something else...that way I expect to get any Wonder that I go after - not that many, since I go Fundy as soon as possible, thereby eliminating the need for "citizen happiness" Wonders...does this happen to others?

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Edward on 02-23-2001 05:39 PM . Wonders cost 4 coins for every shield. Unit's shields start at 2 coins (or is it 2.5?) per shield and get more expensive the more shields you're trying to buy at once. Since we only ever buy one row of shields at a time, the price per shield always comes in at 2 per shield. Is this cheating? Perhaps.

1 row of 10 shields costs 25 gold (price per shield: 2,5). If you are more patient (or not quite as rich, and building in a city that is able to produce 5 shields/turn), you can build 5 shields and buy the remaining 5 for a cost of 10 gold (price per shield: 2).
Method #1 (rushbuild warriors, then all the rest stepwise in 1 turn) gives a caravan in 1 turn for a price of 150 gold (and 5 shields "lost").
Method #2 (start building warriors, then rushbuild stepwise) gives a caravan in 2 turns for a price of 110 gold (+ 5 shields used + 5 shields "lost").
Method #3 (start building warriors, then rushbuild stepwise to row #4, then build row #5 in 2 turns) gives a caravan in 3 turns for a price of 85 gold (+ 15 shields used).
Method #4 (start building warriors, then buy the remaining 5 shields and start building a phalanx, ... and so on) gives a caravan in 6 turns for a price of 40 gold (+ 30 shields used)
Method #5 (no rushbuilding) gives a caravan in 10 turns for a price of 0 gold and 50 shields.

I agree with the rest of your post.
Conclusion : BUILD WOWS WITH CARAVANS
(except perhaps your very first WoW, if you wish to get it even before discovering Trade).

BTW IMO stepwise rushbuilding is no more cheating than all the rest of micromanaging.
(Even ICSing is no cheating; just taking advantage of the "double black faces" bug).


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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Ming]

Another reason to use caravans to build wonders vs building the wonder through shields (assuming you have trade/caravans )

In MP, one of the tricks is to find your opponents wonder building cities, and sabotage production with a diplo. Nothing worse than being a few turns away from finishing, and having a diplo walk up and blow it all away.

At least with caravans, you can build it on the turn you get the science (or have enough caravans/money) limiting the window of opportunity. Plus, if the enemy has a embassy, he doesn't know where you are planning building it, so he can't have diplos lurking

[Everyman]

Edward and my other caravan-building friends,

You'll notice that the wonders I mentioned (Pyramids, Colossus, Lighthouse), with the exception of King Richard's Crusade, are up for grabs prior to Trade and, hence, the availability of caravans. There's no question that when it comes to wonder-building, building those crazy camels is the way to go. In most of my games (Deity level), once I have researched Trade, all wonders are mine for the taking.

I find that I have to contend with the AI for the wonders in the period from 4000 BC to my discovery of Trade. My priority wonders in the Early Game are: (1) Hanging Gardens, (2) Michaelangelo's Chapel, and (3) Pyramids. Super Science City wonders are my next priority. As I mentioned in the initial post, I'd love to get more wonders but with so many wonders available in the early game, I find that I have to set priorities and let the AI have a few less desirable wonders -- but sometimes a few high priority wonders get away.

I'd welcome any strategies for building wonders prior to the availability of caravans.

For starters, here's a description of my typical Early game. Please feel free to critique it.

(1) City Development - I use a modified ICS strategy. That is, I don't blindly build cities 3 tiles apart but if the terrain is acceptable, I'll build a city there.

(2) First Wonder City - As soon I build 3 warriors and a Temple in my capitol to ensure order, I start building Hanging Gardens. By this time I usually have 6-10 cities. This will later become my Super Science City.

(3) Second Wonder City. At about the same time, I'll examine my cities and pick out the best shield-producing city. This will hold most of my universal wonders and will be located in the interior of my empire.

(4) Tech Path to Trade - I take the shortest path to Monarchy, picking up Pottery along the way, then go to Philosophy, then go to Monotheism, then Trade.

[Scouse Gits]

Follow Edward's advice and make your tech priorites Monarchy then Trade.

If your first required wonder is the Hanging Gardens (Always my choice) start it very early, after the capital has built a couple of warriors. There is no need to wait for a Temple. Martial law is seldom a problem. The third unit may come from a hut or be built by another city.

You can use the "poor man's caravan" prior to trade in the form of a diplomat or a horseman. Other cities build these units so they can be disbanded in the wonder building city. It is only half as efficient as caravans but is useful in desperate circumstances.

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SG(2)

[Dis]

I never build the pyramids anymore since I play higher levels. I just can't manage it. It is easier to conquer later after I get the happiness wonders.

I don't know how you diety guys do it. But I can only build so many things at once

they can have oracle, great wall, lighthouse, and hanging gardens- blah!

I keep my cities small until I get michaelangelos (I never miss this one)

but one hate losing is magellan's. it is only a conviences, but it is a very convienient convienance

[sulla]

Lighthouse, I never get it. I've seen the wonder movie once so that early in the game, what's the point? Naval units aren't my biggest priority in the beginnig of the game.

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Sulla-The last dictator of Rome before Caesar. He changed Rome and Rome sure as hell changed him.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 02-26-2001 09:46 AM

1 row of 10 shields costs 25 gold (price per shield: 2,5). If you are more patient (or not quite as rich, and building in a city that is able to produce 5 shields/turn), you can build 5 shields and buy the remaining 5 for a cost of 10 gold (price per shield: 2).
Method #1 (rushbuild warriors, then all the rest stepwise in 1 turn) gives a caravan in 1 turn for a price of 150 gold (and 5 shields "lost").
Method #2 (start building warriors, then rushbuild stepwise) gives a caravan in 2 turns for a price of 110 gold (+ 5 shields used + 5 shields "lost").
Method #3 (start building warriors, then rushbuild stepwise to row #4, then build row #5 in 2 turns) gives a caravan in 3 turns for a price of 85 gold (+ 15 shields used).
Method #4 (start building warriors, then buy the remaining 5 shields and start building a phalanx, ... and so on) gives a caravan in 6 turns for a price of 40 gold (+ 30 shields used)
Method #5 (no rushbuilding) gives a caravan in 10 turns for a price of 0 gold and 50 shields.

[/quote]
Sorry, I wrote it wrong from memory: the remaining 5 shields in a row of 10 cost 11 gold. Hence the table is as follows (building a caravan; number of turns=column 1; price in gold=column 2; number of shields used=column 3; number of shields lost=column 4):
1;150;0;5
2;111;5;5
3;86;15;0
6;44;30;0
10;0;50;0

(if I were Tonic, I would draw a chart , but I'm not THAT clever)



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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental