Dealing with Attacks on Deity

[kdunphy]

I've read a lot of strategies on the strategy board, including, the great library with all those strategies. ICS and all that. So I figured I should be able to handle it.

My settings were Deity, 7 players, normal map, raging hordes. And within the first 10-20 turns both cases, one of my cities were mowed down by enemies or barbs and the next was coming.

I tried to produce warriors first, for martial law as everyone has said, in the first game, went for monarchy first. One of the enemies found me right after I built my second city and just got a warrior. He attacked with his warrior and almost wiped mine out. Then he came in with a horseman and destroyed the city. And came towards my next one.

So I started over. Figured maybe I needed more defenses, so I built a second city, same settings, still going for monarchy first. A 10 turns or so after the second city was built, a whole bunch of archers come in by boat. I rush build a phalanx, in addition to my warrior. They mow both down and my city.

So my question is, how do all you good players deal with attacks, if your expanding so quickly. In deity it seems like there's a huge penalty to all your units, attacking and defending. I mean, an archer mowed down my phalanx in my city on the first try. Doesn't seem quite right, its only 3 attack vs 2 defense plus the city modifier.

In case it matters, I'm playing the Gold edition.

[East Street Trader]

Hey, SG(2), I'd missed that Sioux get an edge to horseback riding thing in the A is for Alphabet work (or rather forgotten it, I suspect). Another good touch from the developers.

I too suffer some nasty early reverses, kdunphy. I doubt they can be eliminated totally but there are some things that you can do to cut down the number of times it happens. Prudent diplomacy helps with neighbours and there are some things to note about barbs.

The dangerous period starts when you put the second city down. With just one city, any unit is invulnerable (within the city) to barbs. So, you get to make a choice about how soon you establish the second city. Of course, for the sake of speeding up your expansion you will want it to be asap. But if you want to take out a little insurance against early barb reverses you might delay just a little. What you do before getting it down is to push back the fog of war by exploring and to build up the treasury a bit - with luck with help from a hut, otherwise by working a trade special.

One approach is to work a forested square, say, silk (or ideally, rivered silk) with the citizen in your size one capital. This will start you towards having some gold and will also take advantage of the fact that before any other city is down, your capital will not disband if it produces a settler while at size one (and won't lose wheatsheaves from the food box either). Working the forested square means you will complete settlers before growing to size two. Your settings specify deity so your second settler builds roads near the capital and stands ready to be the defensive unit should the barbs appear.

How does all this help once the second city goes down? Well, there is a theory - Ribannah is a current adherent but I have seen the theory posited before, that barbs are less common in areas where the fog of war has been dispelled than otherwise. Secondly, once you have over 50g there is the run away, run away tactic. What you do, when the barbs approach, is empty your city of units and what will then usually happen (sadly not absolutely always) is that the barb chief will offer you the option of paying a sum in gold instead of his men taking the city. The sum he asks for is dependant on the size of your treasury and starts at 50g. He won't make the offer if you have less and the amount demanded does not go higher than 50g til you have 100g or so. If you are driven to using this tactic, check how much gold you have and if it is higher than 100 use up a bit rush buying (to keep the size of the demand down).

If you pay up, all the barbs who were in that chief's party disappear. If you are unlucky enough to have two lots in your vicinity at the same time, well paying up may be a losing game because you may still get attacked by the second lot.

The next point concerns your early research path and the value of the doubty diplo (once you have some money). I have pretty much settled in to always researching Writing as soon as I have acquired the Monarchy techs. Then I build a diplo and keep him strategically placed so that I can hope to intercept a party of barbs. With decent luck you get the chance to buy in the loose barb and then use him to kill the one paired with the chief.

SG's advice about barb archers is good and can be expanded. In deity the barbs get a healthy attack bonus against the human player (it's that which skewed your 3(archer) -v- 2(phalanx) experience). So it pays always to try to attack barbs. A horseman may win attacking a barb legion on grassland/plains. Let a barb legion attack you and it will win against anything except a phalanx fortified on a mountain.

Last point. If you have your diplo (or will have him soon) and can't employ the run away run away tactic (maybe not enough gold) you can sometimes minimise the loss to early barbs by clearing out of a size two or bigger city and then letting the barbs take it. The idea then will be to bribe it back. It will be very cheap to do so. If you have built anything in the city sell it when moving out. You move units out so that the city doesn't get reduced in size except by one (when the barbs move in). Just sometimes this can even turn into a small gain. It is just about possible to get lucky when you bribe back and acquire a small treasure trove of units which you couldn't have built for yourself in the time. I often don't reserch Warrior Code, Iron Working or the Wheel early. If the city falls to archers/legion/chariot it will build archers/legions/chariots. You get the city plus any units supported by it located in the eight squares immediately adjacent to it.

All this having been said, while you are right to say that the received wisdom is to build warriors not phalanxes, if I have got off to a good start I very often start defending that good start by letting a third or subsequent city build a phalanx first, not warriors. And, if I have the purple civ for neighbours my first strategic priority is to crush the bastards. And I'll do whatever it takes, and fall as far behind, as it takes to do it. I commend sneak attacks for this purpose. There is an attack bonus for the sneak attack and I usually need the help of that to have any chance of killing off or badly damaging the first unit in a city. And I'll look for a chance to build a barracks in a shield rich city so I can churn out vet phalanxes or vet attackers.

[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited March 01, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-28-2001 12:52 PM Horsemen allow you to kill before you are attacked. Barb Archers only have a defence of 1, so strike before they do!

How did you find out it? Have other barb units such exceptions?

I thought only combat difference for barbs is 150% attack for deity.

{combat system}
{barbarians}{goody huts}
{}{SlowThinker}{end2}

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This is a post with keywords. See a thread The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 15, 2001).]

[kdunphy]

I think it was mostly luck, but the idea of bribing back the city was interesting. I have not won on deity yet, so there's probably other things I could learn to do better as well.

I think my main problem is I never gave techs. I always assumed that would be to huge an advantage to the enemy, and they always seem to want more a bit later.

But I'll try it again and see how well I can do.

[Everyman]

I'm not an expert, but I have some experience winning at Deity level, Raging Hordes games. Here are a few tips:

1. Agree with SG that you appear to be unlucky. Before you give up on a game, you might want to reveal the map to check out if your area has more than its share of red units.

2. I find that in the early game, barbarians are more of a problem than rival civs, as the latter can be temporarily placated by treaties.

3. If you see rivers with decent terrain, build cities there, as a defending warrior has a better chance of withstanding a horseman.

4. Do some hut tipping before establishing your first city to pick up friendly mercenaries who can provide defense and perhaps take down a rival civ in its infancy.

[Scouse Gits]

ST - The information was gained from the "DaveV Bible on ICS"!

Before he mentioned it I would have thought that the barb Archer had a defence of 2! Test it and see - if not our friend in Albi will help us prove the point.

--------

SG(2)

[geofelt]

To keep the peace early, give the AI ANYTHING it asks. It won't ask for anything you don't have. It is cheaper to give early than it is to have to manage an early defense instead of expanding. I hate to give gold, and early, I don't trade techs unless I can get a monarchy prereq tech. If you get an early war, it seems as though the AI has a long memory, particularly under MGE.
You can't depend on defending against barbs.(excepting having one city) The best is to get some chariots or horsemen and attack first.

[Scouse Gits]

I think you have been unlucky! To have such hostility before 3000BC is rare. Barbs don't appear (except from huts) for the first 16 turns of the game.

It is always a good idea to have Horseback Riding early. You can always research this as your non-Monarchy tech. (Or play as the Sioux and you have a fair chance of having it as a starting tech - on a large world better than 50%) Horsemen allow you to kill before you are attacked. Barb Archers only have a defence of 1, so strike before they do!

The AI diplomacy is harder in MPGE. If they ask for a tech on first contact - give it to them, and peace should follow. I never give money! They won't demand cash if you have little gold.(under 50) The tribute you pay is best spent rushing a barracks to produce some vet units.

Try a Medium Map game with small landmasses. You may have a better chance of having a continent to yourself, so you can establish your empire in peace.

Don't blame me if you get stuck on a tiny island! Then the Lighthouse becomes attractive.

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SG(2)

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I'm new at deity, too -- been at it about 1-2 months, and have won a few times -- and just wanted to say "amen" to what others have said here. I've done what geofelt suggests about giving the ai everything it wants until you're strong enough to say no, and what EST suggests about both letting the barbs ransom your empty city rather than attack it and buying back a taken city with diplomats. It works. The other thing that helps me is my tech path. Bronze working is the first non-monarcy tech I go for, and that means phalanxes; fortified in a city, these guys can stand up to most early units (barb archers are the exception). After monarchy, two of my next five techs will be writing and masonry, and that means diplomats and city walls. A lot of advanced player scoff at city walls, but I think they're a must for a newbie playing SP; they effectively neutralize the barbs, and they really slow down the ai. Besides, they cost nothing to support and the ai will be building them. In everything but my science city, they're the first or second improvement I build; they may be a crutch, but until I get better they're a really nice crutch.



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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

On Deity you have to pay attention to defence. Get horse early and then diplos when you can.

One good strat is to set up what I call "barb traps" - put a horse well out from your civ perimeter then try and kill the barbs before they reach your cities. The horse trails them in and kills the leader. This is a very good source of cash if you put your settings at hoardes, and btw setting it lower doesn't seem to reduce barb activity much (except at huts level), it just reduces your cash return.

The best early barb trap is a phalanx on a mountain on the perimeter of your civ with a horse further out on a likely barb approach. The barb troops get killed by the phalanx when they attack it, the horse kills the leader and fills your coffers. If the barbs appear further out than the horse, let them go past and then the horse trails behind. Try it, you'll like it.

A variation when your cashed up is to bribe the barbs then kill the leader.

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.
[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited March 01, 2001).]

[East Street Trader]

Good tactics from AH. Ideally you want a mountain that is two squares away from your city along one of the likely approach routes (AI units always follow roads/rivers and IMO, barbs nearly always do). Right next to the city is not so good because if the incoming barbs wash up on a square contiguous with both the mountain and the city they will always prefer to attack the city.

That is a point you can make use of. If you have a defensive unit in a city which figures to win against the barb accompanying his chief, then you can cheerfully move your horseman out from the city into a position where it can catch the retreating chief after the attacker has immolated itself, even though in doing so the horseman appears to be making itself vulnerable to attack. The barb will attack your fortified vet phalanx in a rivered/forest city (both defensive bonuses count) in preference to picking off the horseman.

Returning to AH's point you don't have to wait until you've got a phalanx to try his tactic. If you locate a warrior on the mountain the barb archer will win, but as long as you are pretty sure you are going to catch the chief the 150g is worth far more to you than the 10 shields which the warrior cost. The point is that the barb archer will drop into the red while killing off the warrior and will then lose when he moves on to attack the unit you have fortified in your city (exposing the chief).

Another little tactical point on capturing the chief is this. If you are in heavily wooded/hilly/mountainous terrain build one or two roads in the squares immediately next to your city. The barb attacker comes along accompanied by his chief and sits down next to your city. The barb attacks, loses and the chief retreats. Because of the two movement point terrain, he only gets to run one square away. Your unit in the city now sallies forth on the road and even a two footed unit still has two thirds of a movement point to attack the chief with (well enough even for a healthy warrior to be sure of winning although I did recently, for the one and only time playing civ, lose a unit to a barb chief. He was on a hill and I think my unit was an archer but it was in the red and had only one third of a movement point left).

Your bad experiences came early. Later on there is a tactic available based on the predilection which barbs have for settling down in fortresses. If you have not developed some part of your continent and are pestered by barbs regularly appearing out of that area (or if you have intentionally left a barb spawning spot undisturbed) build a fortress near where they appear. The barbs will settle in and subsequently, when time inclination and fire power allows, you can wander over, pick off the defending barb units in the fortress and then capture or bribe the chief/chiefs.

In very general terms I would say that my MP experiences have progressively made me more and more cautious in my approach to tactical situations. But 150g early (or multiples thereof) can give your young civ such a kickstart that one of the risks I still take from time to time is the risk of losing a close defensive battle against an incoming barb accompanying a chief when I figure that, if my defender does win I'm favourite to capture the chief.

[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited March 01, 2001).]

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-28-2001 07:36 PM ST - The information was gained from the "DaveV Bible on ICS"! Before he mentioned it I would have thought that the barb Archer had a defence of 2! Test it and see - if not our friend in Albi will help us prove the point. -------- SG(2)

No more tests are being run in Albi for the time being (there was such a lot of bribery and poisoning there recently that the lab smells ).
Never mind! I tested that long ago and strongly agree with Dave: defence=1 for barb archers.

EST
What did you say the other day about engrossing threads?
In fact, I read and reread both posts with great pleasure.
Please don't make it shorter, or I'm afraid we would be losing something.

kdunphy
Those people gave you almost all the good advice I might have been trying to give you.
Only one point then: if the barbs take one city that was yours, think of us, all of us (it happened to us before it happened to you), then take a good breath and go on fighting (you KNOW you will bribe back that city and you will bribe it halfprice).
"Il faut serrer les dents" (how do you translate that one?).
I mean that deity is the highest difficulty level and, even if some strong players seem to despise the AI, IMO you can get a few nasty surprises even after many games. Don't reload! Don't reset! Just fight! ( BTW there is no shame playing a few more games at King or Emperor if needed).



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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Scouse Gits]

La Fayette - perhaps, "You must grit your teeth!"
Excellent advice all round - now go out and kick that AI's butt!

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[kdunphy]

Well I'm in the middle my third try(the first two I told about already), and its going better than the first two.

Its a rather bizarre map, I started on a very small continent connected to the south pole, so lots of glacier squares. But also, there were tons of specials on the glaciers and the permafrost(the lighter white square, whatever its name). So it kinda balanced out. One of my cities couldn't grow at all until I built a harbor, but I succesfully battled a lot of barbarians by taking their units with diplomats.

My continent filled up pretty fast. So I built the next one, one enemy city on that continent, bribed it, and I've been at war with that civ for a while. There's another civ I'm at peace with, and now I have three islands which I have cities on. I have enough cities so that I'm getting black citizens, but I have hanging gardens( and every other wonder I have the tech for ). And a bunch of caravans feeding my capitol to build more wonders as I need them.

I'm behind in science, but I have the great library, hanging gardens, King Richard's crusade, Marco Polo and several others. The problem is there's no where left to expand, other than taking a continent from the enemy.

[Edward]

Wonderful information on early city defending, everyone!

East Street Trader,

I had never heard of (much less tried) your build a fortress for the barbarians tactic. Perhaps they are actually well-intentioned but misunderstood folk who are just looking for four walls to call their own. It's nice to know that your wilderness improvement projects are taking many barbarians, who would otherwise fall into lives of violence and crime, off the city streets and into safe fortresses where they might lead longer and more productive lives.

Perhaps this has been the AI's clever strategy all along. (If I build enough empty fortresses near my cities, the barbarians will stay there instead of attacking.)

[Rufus T. Firefly]

My sympathies; the south pole penninsula can be a real pain.

quote: Originally posted by kdunphy on 03-01-2001 02:59 PM I'm behind in science, but I have the great library, hanging gardens, King Richard's crusade, Marco Polo and several others. The problem is there's no where left to expand, other than taking a continent from the enemy.

I suspect that much depends on what the other wonders are, what year it is, and what your goal is. Are you trying to get to Alpha Centuri, or trying to conquer the world? If conquering, you're actually in pretty good shape; King Richard will help you crank out units, and Marco will tell you who is weak enough to pick on. If your headed to space, you'll have a more difficult time; being behind in science, even with the GL, means you'll have a real space race on your hands.

Based on my newbie experiences, I'd say the most important thing right now is to set a specific victory goal and work toward it by choosing your techs wisely. If it's world conquest, I'd try to build the War Academy (if it's still available) and then make a beeline for invention and democracy, so you can build Leo's and then the Statue of Liberty and go fundy. From there I'd stick strictly to a military research path, starting with navigation so you can build Magellan (again, if it's still available) and detouring only to get communism (for the UN) and espionage. After the UN, you shouldn't need any more wonders except Hoover; use those caravans instead to trade and get the science bonuses, and count on conquering the wonders you want but don't strictly need.

Without the Colossus or Copernicus, the space race is going to be harder. I guess I'd make a beeline for democracy, switch into it, then head strictly for space race advances, ignoring things like amphibious warfare and communism. Put a library in each city, and then start trading like crazy; if a city can't produce new commodities, build money improvements. Mike's chapel should be the only happiness wonder you need; the other wonders you want are Newton's (in your best trade city), Hoover and SETI. Build factories everywhere once you get Hoover; you'll need all the help you can get cranking out spaceship parts in a small empire. And don't overlook the possibilites for expansion; you should end up being a rich democracy, which means bribing cities should be easy.

Others here will no doubt have even better advice, but this is what I would do in your situation. Good luck!

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Scouse Gits]

Sounds like Operation Sun Tzu if it hasn't been built - you build it - expending every effort for this single enterprise - if it has been built - you take it - expending every effort for this single enterprise.
If you don't know where it is - use the 'Wonders' from the 'World' menu to find the city name and then the 'find city' from the Kingdom menu to locate it - reconnoitre with Dips/Spies - choose your method - if a capital it must be conquest if not - you might be able to buy it - take out its walls (Courthouse if purchasing) with your diplomatic corps and send in the lads - it will be a bloody battle, but you must win!
Go for it!

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited March 02, 2001).]

[kdunphy]

I wasn't sure which of the two to go for(conquest or science) but I think I'll go for conquest. The bonuses to enemy units in Deity are a bit intimidating though. Should I build up a big armada and stuff to transport first, and then attack in mass, or just start attacking?

Its going to be naval I know that, because there's lots of islands and small continents, and my empire is spread over three.

In diety, I usually do roving bands or at most restless tribes, the hordes thing I can deal with and still win the game, but I find it annoying with those barbs constanting appearing from nowhere and it bugs the heck out of me later in the game when I am trying to do mass irrigation and roading(pillaging pisses me off).

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Go post stuff at
Civworld forums
Go post now!
"The seeds of evil are the the same seeds of greatness so be evil and be great."

Early game ai civ attacks are even easier to deal with than barbs, because they are more predictable. If an ai civ attacks you, look for the best defensive possie directly between you and the ai civ, preferably a stand alone mountain, and put a good defensive unit on it (or preferably 2 to stop bribing). Let them attack away at that position whilst you continue expanding and building up your strength behind that fortress. When you are ready, sally forth and destroy them - use bribery more than fighting if you have the cash.

If the attack is from the sea, remember they will almost always come the same way, so ambush them on the route.


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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

quote: Originally posted by kdunphy on 03-02-2001 11:57 AM I wasn't sure which of the two to go for(conquest or science) but I think I'll go for conquest. The bonuses to enemy units in Deity are a bit intimidating though. Should I build up a big armada and stuff to transport first, and then attack in mass, or just start attacking? Its going to be naval I know that, because there's lots of islands and small continents, and my empire is spread over three.

Lots of people play conquest better than me, so take this with a grain of salt. That being said: SG is right about going all out to get Sun Tzu's if its in someone else's hands. But if its not, I think it would depend on your current map. If you're currently sharing a continent with someone, your first goal should be to make the continent your own. If you have to move to a new continent to begin conquest, use Marco Polo to determine who is weakest and start there. Also, if you've got the cash, start your conquest by bribing a city; this will give you a toe-hold on the continent that is defensible (by the troops you just bought) right away. Again, good luck!



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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[George Garrett]

For a quiet life in Diety...make your own map! Almost as much fun as playing the game oneself.I've designed many of my own for philosophical purposes e.g. if I wanted to play trader, I'd design a coupla continents
riven with rivers, many leading to my Rome, if I wanted to play with boats,
I'd go archipelego, if Diety (seldom since I dislike the nasty, brutal short life), I'd stick my civ in the centre of the map, t'others I crowd into the four corners, or build banks of mountains twixt them and me.
I once survived to 2020 in Diety, with scacely a contact with another Civ.
Lousy for my score (16%), but good for my confidence, and for experience af playing at Diety level