The OpenMoO Project

[dexter4dxm]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Yes, I think that's called the stamap. Okay, so which one is better: the MoO starmap or the MoO 2 starmap?

The MoO2 StarMap was better because it allowed easy system viewing and an easy way to zoom in on a certain area of the map. Of course, we can make any adjustments we want, but I suggest we start with MoO2's map in mind.

640x480? We can always see how it turns out before we decide. It's easy to go to a higher resolution if VGA resolution isn't good enough, correct?

You'd be surprised at how many games run in that resolution. I'm just saying we should have 640x480 be the default resolution for compatibilty reasons. If the player would like to increase the resolution to 1024x768 (or possibly 800x600), then they can do that, and it will allow them to see more of the StarMap (among other things).

[Proxima]

I was able to find two different groups doing what you guys are proposing. I think you guys might want to check with these guys to see if sharing of resources might help actually finish this project.

http://free-orion.sourceforge.net/

http://roo.sourceforge.net/

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Proxima
I was able to find two different groups doing what you guys are proposing. I think you guys might want to check with these guys to see if sharing of resources might help actually finish this project.

http://free-orion.sourceforge.net/

http://roo.sourceforge.net/

Thanks for the heads-up. IIRC all projects on SourceForge is copylefted, meaning that we are free to copy their code if we want

Our project is probably going to land on SouceForge one day. Soon I hope.

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
DaveV,

Okay, if you are now asked to improve upon MoO, what game elements will you add, and what will you remove?

Adding and removing game elements is a Pandora's box. Once you start fiddling with the game, you run the risk of losing what made it a great game in the first place. So my vote would be for spiffing up the interface, buffing up the AI, and otherwise adhering as closely as possible to the original.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

An AI engine that could be adapted is certainly a great idea. One need not reinvent the wheel every time for a new game. I also happen to be interested in AI (just because existing computer players are rotten). Have you sketched out how this engine could work, other than on a very high level?

At the top end, and at the very bottom end, where I worked out the basis for how a composite unit of infantry would deploy it's maneuver elements, and for the formation evolutions of the individual maneuver elements.

Think infantry brigade and regiments in a War of Yankee Aggression battle. Despite the rather specific origins of that idea, it's not that much of a reach to think about deploying formations of ships in space. The basic principles of multiple-unit combat (screening, concentration, applying strength against weakness) aren't any different. The overlaying strategic imperatives (think orders from a higher HQ) aren't any different - direct attack, maneuver and attack, concentrate on priority targets, general attack, delay and withdraw, etc. etc. are all adaptable.

Even weapons types are adaptable - think point defense weapons (bayonet, pistol, saber), main weapons (musketry), long range weapons (skirmishers), high power/ slow reload weapons (artillery).

Having a ship design workshop where you could tweak things like maneuverability, the ability to orient shields and armor (like MBTs) would give you some incentives for maneuver warfare - the ability to get in flank hits, and enfilading attacks - it's all universal.

For a given unit/ship, you have four tables/arrays/whatever that describe it:

An attribute table, which gives what it can do, and what can be done to it. (capabilities);

A leadership/experience table (modifiers to action intent and execution);

A tactical assessment table (unit view of situation - basically, fight or flee, maneuver, etc. - whether or how to fight, given the choice.);

and finally, a strategic override table, which contains the urgent ramblings of the REMFs who dictate things like hold to the last man, or wipe 'em out on site.

If there's nothing set in the fourth table (all settings are optional, and some not applicable to different ships/units), then the first three lead to an action result - the unit/ships tactical assessment of what it should do.

If the fourth table is set, the unit/ship has to carry out that ordered action (possible to modify the leader/experience table to allow for errors in carrying out orders), but the results of the first three tables lead to the means by which the unit/ship carries out that action.

For example, in a situation where the defender is badly outnumbered and would withdraw on it's own, hold at all costs orders from on high would override that decision, but the defender would assess the tactical odds as being against it, and would react accordingly.

[MichaeltheGreat]

I already talked to Mark, who has no problem with it.

Before this weekend is out, I'll have a new forum up and running at www.freefirezone.net

One of the forum groups will be scratchware/freeware game development.

If we really get a FreeMOO project off the ground, I can create forums for game ideas, and a developer forum for the game - either public or private (however, anyone who volunteered to join the development team would have access if it was private). People can also upload files, etc., for graphics, code, game builds, etc.

Let me know here if you're interested.

[Urban Ranger]

I was also thinking of asking for a OpenMoO forum too, but you beat me to it. I am interested of course, so we'll see how big a group we can attract.

[J.C.]

Well of course.. you want to make it so that all of the micro can be done "off turn". Address the lag issues as much as possible... anyone who has played both MGE & TOT knows that lag is much worse in TOT .. I am not sure why.. but I was told it was in the way the packets are sent out.

Finally...the issue of tactical combat needs to be looked at.. to keep the game from dragging... the best resolution..I think ... would be some sort of simple ( very simple ) formation.. task force .. slow RTS thing. You could take the tactical game out, but I would not recommend it.

Finally, as I assume you know .. MOO2 hit the period during the transition from DOS to Windows.. & uses expanded memory ( I think ).

Dog

[Urban Ranger]

I guess the best course ahead is to set up a separate forum and start the project underway.

[dexter4dxm]

besides my Alt-Civ game, I have begun coding for another project that I'm doing with some other people. i'm pretty sure now that i can't help work on this MoO project, but i wish u guys the best of luck

[Urban Ranger]

Hello? Anybody left here?

[Zealot]

I'm here.

[fanatic civver]

I'm just wondering - has anyone seen a fan project for an old game that has ever been finished?

As to my own ideas, I agree with DaveV. Basically, just build MOO1 with better AI and multiplayer, and fix up a few things here and there. You could probably add a few more races too. But then you have to ask the question, "is it worth it?".

[Sarxis]

I think it is great that these open source projects exist (FreeCiv, etc.).

But personally, I don't have the time to be involved with them.

However: keep up the good non-commisioned work!

[tonic]

What's the latest with the Project - no news for some 5 months now? Is it worth while canvassing ideas here for improvements to the extant game(s) in the meantime?

[system370]

Dear Moo2-ers,

Same old Story, all Mouth and no Trousers.

Let's make a Gnu Moo ! Everyone had a lot to say, but nothing
is ever done. I reviewed the two sites mentioned.

http://free-orion.sourceforge.net/ and http://roo.sourceforge.net/

They have got nowhere compared to the "Universe" Moo Gnu.

Wassat? I hear you say. Find out for for yourself. But Universe made me give up my Moo2 Project. I spent six months teaching myself VB6 from scratch, got the stars evenly Distributed and Evenly Populated with planets. I'll be happy to share my VB 6 program with you so you can see what really can be done by 1 man who has a passion for a Moo2 Clone.

One thing that moo-gnu projects are not short on is ideas, I might suggest a little less gabber and a little more action next time.

The other titbit that might inertest you guys is the Fans 1.32 Patch ! Tech RPs have changed, New racepicks values, Modified AIs. Ship Armour and Structure Hit-point changes and a few other bits and bobs. These guys have actually release a 1.32 Beta ! Not sat on their hands since August 2001 like you guys.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Only Serious Moo2-ers Need Apply.

If you can't crush the AI on Impossible by turn 200 in a medium or large galaxy, Don't even THINK about replying to me.


System370

[dexter4dxm]

Originally posted by system370
Let's make a Gnu Moo ! Everyone had a lot to say, but nothing
is ever done. I reviewed the two sites mentioned.

the last thing i would want to do is make a linux Moo. cutting your target audience from 20 to 1 is a death sentence.

I'll be happy to share my VB 6 program with you so you can see what really can be done by 1 man who has a passion for a Moo2 Clone.

"Same old Story, all Mouth and no Trousers."
No one cares about incomplete projects, including you.

One thing that moo-gnu projects are not short on is ideas, I might suggest a little less gabber and a little more action next time.

Oh yeah? What have you brought to the community? A VISUAL BASIC game that is what, 20% done? Oh wait, that hasn't even been released, nevermind, you have done nothing but complain so far.

Not sat on their hands since August 2001 like you guys.

what a wonderful way of recruiting!

Only Serious Moo2-ers Need Apply.
If you can't crush the AI on Impossible by turn 200 in a medium or large galaxy, Don't even THINK about replying to me.

you must be joking! not only do you insult everyone here and expect them to help, but you narrow down your recruiting so much that you're almost gaurenteed to not get a response. even if a linux-loving Moo2 guru happened to cross your post, I doubt that would help your cause at all.

clone projects are extremely hard to finish correctly without support. this includes all the players, from novice to expert, because many times it is the beginners who find errors in unexpected places, and many times it is the beginners who offer ideas that balance gameplay designs.

unless your target audience is one single geek, and unless you actually want to have yet another unfinished game, i suggest you speak kindlier to the people, and i suggest you pick a OS that gamers actually use, and i suggest you learn a REAL game programming language, and i suggest you read many books on game programming in general because you are obviously lacking in that area.

[Shadowlord]

*Wonders what the War of Yankee Aggression was...*

[Zealot]

Originally posted by system370
I'll be happy to share my VB 6 program with you so you can see what really can be done by 1 man who has a passion for a Moo2 Clone.

I would be really interested in that, please.
Could you send it to me?

I need to know the size of it first, though.



Ah, the memories on this thread... So many ideas, so much hope...

[Zoid]

My own two cents (a little late I know...)

Many great ideas, but has anything happened? The bulk of the posts was made in the beginning of the year. How about an update, MtG, UR, anyone?

I´d just like to say that the graphic interface is irrelevant if you don´t have a game/combat engine that works, but I guess I don´t have to tell you that [hint] CIV3 [/hint]

[Seven29]

I'd love to do the graphics for the game. I did an opening pic for the people remaking Anacreon4021, so I've got some professional experience. As long as it's freeware, I'll work for free

I haven't played Moo2 yet, so I may be going over stuff that's already been done...

Some ideas:
I think the races should be looked at, it's always nice to have alot of different choices and competition. I've been playing around with a really in-depth random alien generator, but I could easily cut it down into whatever variables were necessary.
Moo3 has a nice variety of races, but I think if you were to start with a random generator, and then maybe come up with 8 or 12 races that made sense, you'd have a really nice feature, and a great foundation to build on. It wouldn't be too hard to make the diplomacy screen customizeable. You could pick and choose how you want your species to look like, it would just require alot of artwork and some paperdolling.
I'd love to see more quirky things built into the game, stuff like encountering primitive races, say, or alien ruins, more variety of "space monsters" would be great. Maybe messages from ancient races, like the Orions that you would have to encode, or just random bits of information floating around in space. Maybe some moral questions to answer, in terms of what technologies you use. Just neat little hidden things to find as you play.
I think the whole planetary counsel should go, or atleast be modified greatly. You should have to convince races to join the counsel, anyway, and agree to abide by it's decisions, before you start voting.
The tech tree should definitely be a big affair, I found myself grossly powerful at the end of many games, without achieving enough of an identity, because I was researching stuff that everyone else was too.
I think that sense of 'racial identity' is very important, and should be cultivated.
Homeworlds-another Moo3 idea, not all races should need the same conditions (sillicoids excepted ofcourse), and races that like radiation, tundra, inferno, etc. should be there to be played. It would definitely be a major factor in the race generator idea. Barren worlds might be the only worlds that noone but the sillicoid-types would come from.
Asteroid belts should be mineable. You should be able to get resources from them, and build bases on them. Turning them into huge planets is fine too, with really advanced planetology etc. technology. (The downside of asteroid belts would be a much greater chance of encountering space monsters.)
That said, I'd really love to see a more advanced economic/materials structure. Going out and finding sources of metals, such as neutronium, or energy, like trilithium crystals, might be a requisite to advanced technology-locating such sources early could be a random event, and establishing a trade with another race would improve the fun of diplomacy, I would think. Building an advanced economic structure into the game would be complicated, but if it was neat and tidy, and not annoying to the player, would be well worth it.
I think we might consider the really big planets astronomers are detecting. Heavy gravity races might live on them, and they'd be great for mining, but I think any species living on a heavy gravity planet would probably not get to space nearly as quickly as say humans, just because moving and flying are going to be that much more difficult.
That said, I've had an idea for non spacefaring "minor" races, that you could invade and take planets from, get technology from, trade with, etc. They might be really tough ground-fighters-think atleast as tough as Bulrathi-with great planetary defenses, they just don't have a spacefleet and would boil down to something like a random-type event or a resource. The planets would have great resources, once you got them, and the races living on them might have quite a few technologies that wouldn't directly apply to a space-program, like hand-weapons, good planetology stuff, etc.
Other random events could include picking up another race's beacon-like Voyager-from which you would gain basic information about the race in question, or maybe clues to a master race's home planet. Ofcourse, the beacon *could* contain a killer virus, or a nanobyte factory run by an insane AI

Diplomacy is so important to the Moo games. It's a by-word, and if you are going to make a Moo type game, it's got to be done/redone as well as possible. I just wanted to say that.

How about more and different types of planetary defenses? Not just missles, but orbital satellites, short-range fighters, space mines, what have you. I had an idea for a planetary offensive shield though-basically satellites in an orbital pattern. They would be individually shielded, and capable of producing weapons-grade lazer type weapons. You'd have to knock out a satellite to get through the lazer net, so the satellites themselves could be defended with alot less effort than the whole atmosphere, and you'd have to knock out alot of satellites to get a large force to the planet, not just transports, but anything. Ofcourse, you could mount missles and other weapons on the satellites themselves, and use it in conjunction with other planetary defenses.

I always felt that the black hole generator in Moo was too powerful, and that such a weapon, while devastating, should also affect the ship or ships firing it. You could still deliver it with an AI run vessel-smaller as technology improves-and lose as few as one ship, compared to the enemy losing as much as a whole fleet. The earlies versions (atleast) might require the detonation of an entire star, wiping out a whole system and rendering it uninhabitable. A black hole generator would be a cataclysmic weapon, maybe the most destructive of all, but the repurcussions should be equally potent, atleast until the technology is greatly refined.

I think that planets should come in like 9 different sizes, and the larger sizes would allow you to build more structures on the planet. This could be implemented by "slots" to be filled. Tiny planets would have only 4 slots. The increasing sizes would have 8 (Earth), 16, 32, 48, 64 (Jupiter), 96, 128, and the largest at 160 slots (you might possibly be able to find a habitable brown dwarf with say 800 slots, but it would be very rare, hard to colonize unless you have alot of planetology, and probably guarded by a nasty space monster (or several)). Slots could be allocated to different purposes, like farming (increasing population), defense (better ground forces), research (tech advances), etc. The more slots, the greater the production in that area. Having a general percentage type setup for planets-one that you could adjust individually, or as a whole, and lock down-like in Moo-would let you customize planets in a complex way, without making it a hassle. Moons could be easily implemented by giving planets a random amount of "moons", based on the size of the planet, and the moons would add slots that you could fill, and which would be independent of the planet itself. The slots, for planets or moons, could also be used to mount weapons on, and for special advanced structures which would give you bonuses to whatever (think something along the lines of Civilization wonders of the world), while at the same time eating up your building room. Moons would have 2, 4, 6, or 8 slots each, but having moons would decrease your planet's initial habitation limit, until say you researched and built weather-control satellites. Some other interesting technological lines could come from this. You could, say, build orbital colonies, hydroponic moon-farms, even create artificial worlds eventually.

More about trade, and how I think it should apply to technology:
Metals would be great trade items. Everyone would start out with titanium. Duralloy, Tritanium, and Adamantium could be manufactured. Zortium and Andrium could be mined, or synthesized at great expense. They'd be stuff you'd want to trade for. Neutronium would have to be mined. It'd be unsynthesizeable, and because of it's value, could be the game's "gold standard". I'd like to see other metals too, some that are naturally more resistant to some forms of damage, and less resistant to others. Take tungsten for instance. It might be naturally resistant to energy weapons, say 25-50% more effective against them than titanium, but it would have to be mined or manufactured. It would therefore be somewhat more expensive and rare than titanium. High tech metals might have "memory", and be able to repair themselves of damage. It would be a low-grade auto repair system that you didn't have to do much with. You would have to manufacture such stuff with advanced technology, or find deposits of it on ancient derelicts. Because of the malleability of the stuff, it wouldn't be terribly tough, maybe different versions equal to titanium, duralloy, and zortium, at much higher tech. Then ofcourse, you have energy sources. Deuterium could be manufactured normally, while dotomite crystals would have to be synthesized. That's just the mining stuff, their's a whole lot of supply and demand possibilities. I wouldn't make it too terribly complex though, have the metals, the energy, and maybe half a dozen other substances (like say zeon for missles, superconductors for advanced computers, stuff like that) to start with, and then add and add as you go.

You could have a race that are fantastic merchants, and make galactic neutronium monopoly a victory condition of the game.

I think that things like oort clouds should exist, but that they should be more complex, in terms of game function. Maybe have them block sensors, so that to find out what's in the cloud, you have to actually go in and search around.

A "fog of war" would be a nice thing, only not so much a fog as like a visible star map. It would give you alot of information on nearby stars, some information on stars which are further away, and some stars you aren't going to be able to detect at all, unless you are looking from the right direction in space (just to give whoever designs the working map a headache )

Natural worm-holes would be nice to find, as a random event (ofcourse, you don't know what's on the other end until you send ships through), as would mineable neutron stars-very valuable, but probably guarded by something like a Guardian. You could even detect something that might be a neutron star, send your ships over, and discover that it's unstable and lose a chunk of your space fleet. Stable neutron stars would be the exception, but well worth a significant risk and alot of trouble.

Psionics in the game could be interesting. I would handle them as something your race had to be able to do initially, and then research for. You could have a whole field of technology to do with developing psionics, genetic manipulation, wetware, biological weapons, etc.

I'd like to see alot more starting-condition options. Moo is a great game, but it would be better with a nice built in editor.

I've got alot more, but that's enough for now. Post or e-mail me if you want me to work on the graphics or anything.

[Seven29]

ok, couple things...
I've started doing some graphics on my own. I've got some ships done and a couple planets. I'm also working on a human-type paper doll.
I think that if we are going to make a game-if anybody but me is really excited about it-we shouldn't aim for copying Moo exactly, and just make a Mooesque game with a similar feel and our own stuff. We won't have to worry about monkeying around with copyright laws.

It would actually be as easy to create a new game based on old principles than to copy one exactly, since for instance, graphic programs have advanced to the point where a private citizen like me has access to better equipment than Microprose did when they made the first Moo. If someone wants to grab me screen shots, I *can* retouch their stuff pretty easily and quickly, though.

I am doing graphics in 256 colors at 640x480 res. I can change both of those to anything that is decided.

If someone who doesn't have specific talents wants to find pictures online that I can modify for the game, that would be really useful-don't worry about them being copyrighted too much, I will be modifying them heavily.
photos of space are useful, as would be a gallery or two of aliens that people have already done, for inspiration purposes. Basically anything sci-fi is going to be useful, until the "look" of the game is down.

I am in favor of making it a java game. Whether or not Microsoft is going to putz around in the courts, having the java version now would make it relatively simple (compared to creating a whole game) to convert it to other formats.

I should have a set of graphics to show in say a week's time, and then, if people are still interested in doing this, we can decide what needs to be done, and what we're going to do, exactly.

[Ihmemies]

You should first do the game with placeholder graphics, and if the game is someday "ready", you can then make better graphics. It's useless to make first graphics, then notice that no one is going to write the code :)

[Seven29]

you are right lol
but do we have any programmers left?

sometimes doing some of the graphics kindof gives you a *feel* for the game and how you do it, so it might just help with the mental picture.

I'll write more later if people are going to write back

[Zealot]

Seven, it's great to have an artist who wants to work on this project, but we are kind of skeptical about this, since it has been quiet for far too long!
And then there's already the Candle'bre project, wich some of us (me included) want to help.

So, could you post some of your work, so you can give us some good moral, please?

[Lemmy]

i might be able to post a little space combat engine i've been working on in Java, it more or less works...it just isn't optimized yet
and there is a very stupid AI, which can be easily replaced by your own AI.

It's very customizable, you can design your own components in txt-files, and design your own ships in-game, the only things that aren't implemented yet are nebula's, and some ai stuff

[Lemmy]

i only just found this thread, but now i realize this has been here for months...if there is still any interest, i'm willing to help programming/designing, but i'm only good at Java programming, i know c++ syntax, but i haven't programmed anything for real in c++ yet, so i don't how that would go for me.

I am somewhat experienced in modelling programs, using UML

[Seven29]

I might be being dumb here, but how would I post graphics to this messageboard? if you want, I could just e-mail to whomever is interested, for now. I've got a screen shot to share, it's kindof hacked up, but it'll give some idea of what I had in mind.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Seven29
I might be being dumb here, but how would I post graphics to this messageboard? if you want, I could just e-mail to whomever is interested, for now. I've got a screen shot to share, it's kindof hacked up, but it'll give some idea of what I had in mind.

Right above the Submit Reply button there's the option Attach file.
But you have to click on the Post Reply blue button first, in order to get to the "posting" page.