Navy Strategies.

[Superphonic]

Looking for a few naval startegies. I always start building a powerful navy once Cruisers become avaliable. Battleships are essential for waging war against a costal civ. The Civ will send countless destroyers and submarines against your fleet, and all will be destroyed. Ok you may loss the odd vessell, but this can easily be replaced.

I also make extensive useage of carriers for bombing raids and escorting cruise missiles to airbases.

[Smash]

One naval idea that I use is the ship chain.Had a huge one setup in a gigamap succession game and it brought tons of gold and science.Nothing like moving freight 50 squares over an ocean and deliver on same turn.

Subs I find somewhat useful.Best use is to just park em here and there in shipping lanes and....well you know.

Aegis is very good.A couple stacked with a battleship is pretty much unsinkable when it comes to the AI.

[Bereta_Eder]

I usually play in archpelago where a large navy is a much for guarding your technology and such.

I have found out what works best for me. That is to have A LOT of cruisers in relative distance to each other and patrol. These have to have back up from battleships altough the number of the later can be a lot smaller.

I have found subs really useless except for close proximity battles and scouting service. If one of your cities is very close to an enemy city (by sea) and you have all the time war with that civ, then subs are cheap and effective way NOT to lose to many ships. Because if you make the mistake of having a battleship or cruiser close by, the enemy city just builds a sub and sends it to the bottom in one turn. YOUR subs cannot be detected by the enemy so easily.

For scouting just build a sub and load it with a missile. If you have peace you can check the whole world with no violation of any treaties.

Large navy is only (I think) useful if you wanna protect your tech by sinking EVERYTHING that gets close to your shores. Otherwise it's useless.
Just connect each one of your cities with railroad, have 2 defence and one attack unit in each city, build coastal fortresses and NO ONE can capture ANY of your cities even if you don't have NO ships! (air defence you MUST have on the other hand).

[Ming]

In SP, I only build enough of a navy to meet my needs: transfer troops, and protect my cities/mainland. Once the AI gets cruise missiles, I have no interest in watching 25 missiles hitting a stack of ships

In MP, it all depends on what objectives I have. The super iron clad strategy works wonders early in the game... And I will keep a big enough navy to patrol and explore for the purposes of finding enemy cities (trade and stealing sciences). If somebody else had been particulary aggressive at sea...

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Superphonic on 03-01-2001 01:52 PM I always start building a powerful navy once Cruisers become avaliable. Battleships are essential for waging war against a costal civ. .

Have you ever tried building a powerful navy long before cruisers become available?
The trick is to research Physics ASAP (the AI won't do that kind of research for you). Then make your choice between Magnetism and Steam Engine (the path to Magnetism is shorter but you shouldn't choose it if you have built the LH). If Sun Tzu is available, build it (or else, if either LH or STWA are built in a coastal city, they might be your first objectives).
Then, as soon as you get the tech, you rushbuild as many frigates or ironclads as you can afford (it might seem costly at first but, believe me, you get the payback very soon).
Then, it is either or:
1) With LH, your iron clads are vet (remember: no frigates with LH, since Magnetism kills LH). Sail, choose your first target city and smash the defenders to bits (preferably with a squadron of 3 or more in order to get an empty city in 1 turn). Don't forget to have a tiny caravel with at least 1 warrior onboard: "ground units...".
2) Without LH, you must make your ironclads or frigates vet ASAP (Sun Tzu helps you, making your units vet after 1 fight). The best is to wander along AI's coasts and choose your "training targets" (preferably triremes, caravels or low defence ground units). As soon as a few units are vet, sail, choose target and smash.

Many people state that the window of opportunity for this strategy is small. I state that if you plan it early and don't hesitate building 12+ naval units so that you have at least 2 squadrons, you can achieve tremendous results, including sometimes the conquest of ALL coastal cities (except those you might wish to keep foreign for the sake of foreign trade).



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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

My calling for a navy begins with frigates. In Diety its takes many, many dragoons and calvary to break 1 single musketeer behind walls, 1 frigate can usually kill a muskteer(at least in my experience) so frigates control the seas early and are extremely important to success in the game. Of course I produce Ironclads en masse. I actually don't really ike going from ironclad to destroyer with Leo's workshop because upgrading causes units to loose veteran status and ironclad and destroyer are equal in attack(this should not be). Or course later if it stalemated on the oceans(which hardly happens), I switch most of cities to subs and a few to build the trump card--the battleship and it works pretty well for me.

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[LeeT]

OK, this is specific, but...

in an MP game, five players, more like a "diplomacy" than the usual MP - we're all friends, and will continue games, but not forever, so AC is an acceptable goal, and world domination - everyone else gives up is more common than total conquest.

Two alliances, both a little fragile, I'm the odd man out. Each alliance has a War Monger and Space Racer, I'm a space racer as well, so I'm the natural target of the two War Mongers, and can't expect much support. So how do I protect myself? With a strategic force permantently based away from home.

As soon as I had Nav, I launched a couple caravels with soldiers and diplos, and sent them off to sea. As the game developed, I would keep this force together, use the diplos to try and expand it/improve it buy bribing diplos, and sail it off the waters of problem neighbours. It was discovered once or twice, but I was a very active trader and explorer so noone thought anything of it. A few hundred years go by, and Leo's goes up, and the force has never been used - although someone mentioned that I had been more forceful in negotiations than my situation warranted.

Anyway, trouble starts, and a war monger sails up beside a new island city I had just dropped. My armada - now two galleons, three dragoons, three musketeers, two cannons, a diplo and a frigate leaves it's arctic station and heads to the enemy. Two turns later the War Monger, quite some distance from me, has taken my new city, and destroyed a galleon,a couple of musketeers, and has his boats setting off to my next closest island city.

I demand that he surrender, he laughs, and my armada hits his capital out of the blue. There was some luck involved, my diplo fluked out and while the walls stood the coastal fort came down, the frigate and dragoons blasted apart the defenders, the musketeers and cannons rushed in and fortified the area (walls still standing, hehe). His Wonders are now mine.

I wait a minute, let it sink in to my enemy, and I remember the note I sent quite clearly...

"ok Glen, you've got me by the wrist, I've got you by the balls. On the count of three, do we let go, or do we squeeze?"

[colossus]

Have you tried bribing enemy naval units? If you are a perfectionist, try keep some dip/spy in transport behind the cruisers/destroyers/ironclads. When a hostile civ pump out its navy, bribe them. It lesson the need for building a powerful fleet preemptively and the new NON navies are fun and less straining to your production.

[geofelt]

I will agree with Ming; my navy is made up of transports and perhaps some protection if necessary. You usually can get units quite a distance iwith magellans and judicious location of port cities.
Oh rare occasions, I build a floating transfer island. This would consist of two vet battleships and five vet aegis cruisers in a stack. The AI will hurl many many cruise missles at it, but will not dent it. It serves as a place for transports to stop midway between two distant cities.

quote: Originally posted by colossus on 03-03-2001 09:15 PM Have you tried bribing enemy naval units? If you are a perfectionist, try keep some dip/spy in transport behind the cruisers/destroyers/ironclads. When a hostile civ pump out its navy, bribe them. It lesson the need for building a powerful fleet preemptively and the new NON navies are fun and less straining to your production.

Agreed and one addition: it's nice to have those NONE-naval vessels which don't cause unhappiness in demo/republic.

Btw, has anyone else wondered why we have to wait for magnetism/galleon to get a non-attack vessel for caravan transportation which don't cause unhappiness in rep/demo? Maybe there is some historical explanation but that feature really makes early rep/demo a pain in the a**.

[Edward]

quote: Originally posted by Marko_Polo on 03-07-2001 04:32 AMBtw, has anyone else wondered why we have to wait for magnetism/galleon to get a non-attack vessel for caravan transportation which don't cause unhappiness in rep/demo? Maybe there is some historical explanation but that feature really makes early rep/demo a pain in the a**.

Agreed! I now become a Republic/Democracy much later than I used to, but when one does it early, ships are a pain! Those triremes are the one "military" unit you need to keep outside your cities. "Yah, our boat has a menacing dragonhead, but we're on a peaceful trading mission. We promise! No, no, he said 'Dye' not 'Die!'"

[Scouse Gits]

In Republic or Democracy - find a high production coastal city - then build Shake's, and the Navy (based there) causes no problems! If you play into modern times factory/offshore platform is a useful combination, which allows vast fleets.

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SG(2)

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 03-07-2001 12:56 PM In Republic or Democracy - find a high production coastal city - then build Shake's, and the Navy (based there) causes no problems! If you play into modern times factory/offshore platform is a useful combination, which allows vast fleets. ---------- SG(2)

Yeah, I know the trick, but still..

1) we have to wait for medicine to get shake's
2) we have the hassle of rehoming all the ships in the shake city and/or need to build all the ships there

..yet I think that this is the best solution available for the rep/demo navy problem. Still I hope that in Civ3 this issue has been addressed differently!

[East Street Trader]

One thing you can do is to build only one tryreme in each coastal city. And, if they set sail accompanied by any military units other than a dip, try to make that unit either one of your four footed early hut/barb city recruited "none" units or else a horseman from an inland city without other units in the field.

This idea carries some long term planning implications to do with the siting of cities. Like enough the map will dictate city location, but if you are developing the sort of landmasses which allow choice, there seems to me to be a fairly fundamental early strategic decision which arises as to whether you go for lots of coastal cities or just a few.

I suppose these are large map points as a small map won't offer wide choice and the game won't last long enough for the point to tell. But when it will last long enough, the strategic question comes down to will you rule the seas or not? With a secondary question to do with whether you like early Republic or not?

If you intend to rule the sea and/or will stay in Monarchy to keep production and expansion going then coastal cities will support a larger fleet and you will not fear seabourne assault.

But if you are going for a wholly peaceful approach and/or early republic supporting few defensive units, then having a lot of coastal cities leaves you exposed to the "land and attack in the same turn" tactic and other dangers. Your one defender may well lose to multiple pirate barb attacks by top end four footers and, later, even the A1 may be able to land a large enough expeditionary force of modern offensive units to be troublesome. You should also be troubled by diplo/spies (but won't be).

I'm not sure I've bottomed this. A factor in the overall picture is that I don't like siting cities where they have several ocean squares in the radius but are not on a coast and hence can't build a harbour so as to fully exploit those squares (a point of significance for WLT-D management).

Another aspect I've not bottomed is how oedo's law affects things. In the post oedo era it's much less costly to make regular switches of government. So a period in representative government for trade, research and WLT-D growth can be switched into Monarchy in time to exploit, say, the ironclad window and then back to representative government when the war's objective's have been won or it is time for another round of WLT-D growth.

I'll mention another, not yet fully worked through, idea. If you're a perfectionist you will have odd corners where there are a few tiles not utilised. If those tiles can generate a few shields without costly improvements, and defence considerations allowing, build a city there intending it always to stay small. Unhappiness in very small cities may turn out to be manageable so as to allow quite a few units to be maintained in the field from that city, even under representative government.

Sort of sleazy infill tactic, I suppose.

Anyway, more complex ideas aside, absent Shakespeare's I warrant the fundamental notion of one ship per coastal city.

[Sieve Too]

AngleBob: "In Diety its takes many, many dragoons and calvary to break 1 single musketeer behind walls, 1 frigate can usually kill a muskteer(at least in my experience) so frigates control the seas early and are extremely important to success in the game"

Hmm. In my experience, 1 Cavalry can kill non-vet Musketeers behind walls every time and vet Muskets about half the time. 2 Cavs can always kill a vet Musket behind walls. Fortified Muskets have D=4.5 and vets have D=6.75. Even vet Frigates will have a tough time with them. And if the AI has a Coastal Fortress, forget it.

Another important point is repair. The city you capture might have a Barracks and if it doesn't, you can build one. Your Cavalry will be good to go again in just a couple turns after resting. Port Facilities aren't available for a long time so your Frigates are basically out of commission after just one attack.

Marko_Polo: "Yeah, I know the trick, but still..

1) we have to wait for medicine to get shake's
2) we have the hassle of rehoming all the ships in the shake city and/or need to build all the ships there"

Good point. An alternative to ships-with-Shakes is ships-with-Bach. Build a coastal city on a forest and develop another forest square or some other 1 food, high shield square. The city will never grow. You can support 4 or more ships with no unhappiness in Rep/Dem. Bach always gives 2 content citizens so you'll never have a problem. Best of all, you can have more than one city like this.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

EST, your idea about the small town in the unused corner of the empire does work well. If you use the accepted cheat of mining a hill, then settling it before the mine is done, you end up with a small city with strong shield production. This is worth doing if the hill has wine or (better yet) coal. Doing this on iron can work, but only if you plan to keep it size 1 or 2.

The size 1 city on coal has a production of about 7. With a harbor, this city will grow slowly. A temple should be enough to keep the folks happy, any wonders (Mike's Chapel, etc) eliminate unhappiness altogether. The lone defender behind walls will be literally invincible to the AI - from land or from sea. The remaining shields can go to ship building. A size 4 city with a harbor and one additional mine can have a production of 10 or so very early in the game. Roll out the ships!

[Edward]

Marko_Polo,

One possible explanation: Perhaps having loved ones piloting a sea-worthless ship in the scary ocean is just as disturbing as having them involved with some military force in the field. Stay-at-home relatives are placated when more seaworthy ships come on the market. (If you do use Scouse Gits's Shakespeare’s Theater trick, be sure to delay the release of "The Tempest" until after you've discovered Magnetism.)

[Scouse Gits]

Sieve Too - When you get JSB things are starting to become comfortable. Medicine isn't really a long wait with prerequisites of Trade/Philosophy which are both high priorities on the research hit list.
So there is less wait for Shake's and it comes in with just 6 caravans.

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SG(2)
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited March 09, 2001).]

[East Street Trader]

Thanks Marquis, you're well ahead of me on this one, Sieve Too also, by the look of it. I'm not sure my current game is going to lend itself to this but I'm definitely going to follow your prescription asap.

In general terms I think Civ comes down to grabbing as many of the fundamental sources of production - wheatsheaf, shield and arrow - as you can, by whatever method; augmenting them - by trade, by land development and by city development; and then using the productive capacity generated to best effect. Balance of many and varied kinds is required along the way.

I do best with arrows and worst with wheatsheaves. I do OK with shields but have a feeling that others could show me many a thing or two about timing the exploitation of the shield specials. I definately, for example, underuse the food caravan. In fact, I virtually NEVER use that facility. And shield special squares sometimes cry out for that sort of expertise.

I have a feeling that coal and iron specials are probably rarer in coastal locations but I'm going to keep my eyes open about that in my next few civs. And if I find some, I'll maybe solve a specific problem I have. Playing in one of my favoured styles the ironclad window will arrive when I have my trireme ship chain buzzing and while I want to maintain my representative government for a while yet. I am a greedy character so my ship chain will likely be a long one and I simply won't have enough coastal cites to stick to one ship per city if I want both a large merchant marine plus a decent ironclad fleet. Hence some of my inchoate thinking.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

EST, if you are unable to find a hill special on the coast, the next best option is a coastal hill near a whale or fish. Any suitable combo on the coast can result in good production with <5 city. At a minimum, all should have a harbor and one special:

An unused whale or fish plus the mined hill city

Iron, gold, or mined desert oil also need an irrigated grassland square to grow. As a bonus, your defender on a mountain special will be as good as immortal.

Coal i discussed in my previous post

Wine or silk offer fewer shields, more trade than coal

Pheasant or mined oasis (3/3/1) - don't forget desert can be mined - allow for faster growth rate, but fewer shields than coal.

Such a city works without a special, but less impressively. It's worth doing only if none of the above options are available. Remember, too, that the desert locations will not add a defensive bonus. If the city is on your frontier, you might want a second defender. Good luck!