AC in BC with OC

[Ribannah]

Finished the no-huts version, too . The AI's grew extremely hostile, worshipfull allies cancelled out of the blue. But we made it

================================================== ==============
AC: 1196

Monarchy: -
Republic: -2250
Democracy: -25

Colossus: -1450
Copernicus: -525
Shakespeare: -350
Newton: 80
Leonardo: 129
Darwin: 500
Apollo: 760

Trade routes: -650, -550, -500

Size 12: -750
Size 21: -25 (Size 25 in 60)
Size 34: 660

Trade: -1900
Construction: -1600
Sanitation: -250
Refrigeration: 260

Automobile: 500
Computers: 640
Space Flight: 740

============================================
-3800 Rome 2 gold, 2 wine
-3700 Alphabet*10
-3550 Carthagians, they have Ceremonial Burial, Peace, Alp->C, Ally
-3500 Aztecs, they have Bronze Working, Peace, Alp->Az, Ally
-3450 Code of Laws*22, Cod->Az,C
-3400 wine mined
-3350 Vikings, they have Bronze Working, Peace, Alp+Cod->V, Ally
-3100 Americans, Peace, Cod->Am, Ally , Wri*33<-Am , Wri->C,Az,V
-2900 Settlers, wine mined, Zulus, they have Masonry, Peace, Wri+Cod+Alp->Z, Ally
-2850 S2, Settlers join city -> S3
-2800 Literacy*40, Mongols, traded for Ceremonial Burial and Horseback Riding, Peace, 2 techs->M, no Ally
----- 2 techs->C, 25 , traded for Bronze Working(Az), 2 techs->Az, 25
-2600 4 techs->Am, 25
-2550 Library, 3 techs->V, 50
-2500 1 tech->C, 50
-2450 Temple
-2300 We Love , Barb Archers
-2250 The Republic, REPUBLIC, 1 tech->C,V, 1 tech->Am, 50 , swapped for Currency(Az),
----- traded for Masonry and Mysticism(Z), 1 tech->Z, 25 , 5 techs->M, Barb Archers -> N-Settlers vetted
-2200 S4, Barb Leader (150)
-2150 S5
-2100 S6
-2050 S7
-2000 We Love ends
-1900 Trade, gold mined
-1800 3 techs->Am
-1750 traded for Warrior Code(V), 3 techs->V, traded for Monarchy(Z), 2 techs->Z, 50 , 2 techs->Am
-1600 Construction, 4 techs->M
-1500 traded for Map Making(Az), 5 techs->Az, Maps, no gift
-1450 COLOSSUS
-1350 Silver, 8 techs->C, Maps, no gift
-1300 Banking, traded for Mathematics(Z), 2 techs->Z, 100
----- traded for Iron Working and Philosophy(Am), 50->Am, 2 techs->Am, 50
----- 5 techs->M, Maps, 7 techs->V, Maps, no gift
-1250 Wool
-1200 7 techs->V, Maps, no gift
-1150 Gold
-1100 1 tech->Az, 1 tech->Z, 150
-1050 MarketPlace, 50->Am, 100
-1000 Barb Chariot, 1 tech->Az, 50
-975 Bank, 1 tech->Az, 100
-950 gold mined, 1 tech->C
-925 Colosseum, We Love
-900 S8, 1 tech->Z, 100
-875 Aqueduct, S9
-850 University, S10
-825 Settlers
-800 S11
-775 Settlers
-750 S12, 1 tech->V,M
-725 Food, We Love ends
-675 Hides, Zulus: GREAT LIBRARY
-650 1 tech->Z, 100 , Silver to Bapedi (d,381)
-625 University, Astronomy
-600 Hides, 1 tech->Z
-550 Wool to Zimbabwe (398)
-525 COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY, Bridge Building, traded for Pottery(Z), Zulus end alliance
----- 150->Am, 5 techs->Am, Maps, 50
-500 Hides, Barb Horsemen, Gold to Zimbabwe (400), sold Colosseum, Aztecs: PYRAMIDS
-475 Wine, traded for The Wheel(C), 7 techs->C, Maps, Americans: HANGING GARDENS
-450 Food, Barb Legion, 5 techs->V, Maps
-425 Food, Barb Chariot
-400 Theory of Gravity
-350 SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE
-325 Food, Engineering traded for Seafaring(Am), 7 techs->M, Maps, 1 tech->Am, 150
-300 Food, 1 tech->Am, 50
-275 Food
-250 Sanitation, We Love , 4 techs->C, traded for Feudalism(Az)
----- 9 techs->Az, Maps, worshipful Aztecs end alliance (while we have 49 gold) , 1 tech->Am, 50
-225 Sewer System, S13
-200 S14 1 tech->Am, 50 , Barb Legion
-175 Food, Invention, S15, Barb Leader (150)
-150 S16
-125 Food, S17
-100 Economics, S18, 1 tech->Am, 50 , 5 techs->M, 3 techs->C
-75 Stock Exchange, S19
-50 S20
-25 Democracy, DEMOCRACY, S21
1 S22, 1 tech->C
20 Gunpowder, S23, traded for Chemistry(V), 8 techs->V, Maps, 2 techs->C
40 S24
60 Metallurgy, S25, 6,4,1,1 techs->Az,M,C,V, Maps(Az), Zulus declare war, Hides to Ulundi (d,554), Aztecs: MARCO POLO'S EMBASSY
80 ISAAC NEWTON'S COLLEGE, Explosives, We Love ends , Wine to Hlobane (d,660)
100 Chivalry, traded for Navigation(Am), 6 techs->Am, Maps(Am), 3 techs->V,Az,C, 50->M , 3 techs->M
120 LEONARDO'S WORKSHOP, 250<-Am for War(M)
140 Physics, Z Horsemen
160 Hides, Zulus: SUN TZU'S WAR ACADEMY
180 Magnetism, M Diplomat
200 Hides
220 Electricity, 3 techs->V,Az,Am,C, Maps
240 Hides
260 Refrigeration, We Love
280 Supermarket, S26
300 Steam Engine, Z Chariot
320 Hides, S27, M Knights
340 Railroad, 3 techs->V,Az,Am,C, Maps, M Chariot
360 Hides, S28
380 Industrialization
400 Factory, S29
420 The Corporation
440 Hides, S30
460 Refining, 8,9 techs->Z,M, Cease Fire(Z,M), Maps, Hides to Tlatelolco (d,466)
480 Steel, S31, 350->Az , traded for Conscription(Az), 3 techs->Az, 2 techs->Z,M, 5 techs->V,Am,C, Maps, 100<-V , worshipful Americans and Carthagians end alliance
500 DARWIN'S VOYAGE -> Combustion, Automobile, 1 tech->V, 100 , 2 techs->Z
520 Superhighways, Electronics, S32, 1 tech->Z, 2 techs->V, 100 , 3 techs->M, Peace, 2 techs->Az,C, Hides to Tlatelolco (d,953), Zulus: STATUE OF LIBERTY
540 Mass Production, Carthagians declare war , Hides to Utica (609)
560 Mass Transit, Leadership, S33, Zulus declare war , 2 techs->V,M, Maps, Z Cannon
580 Hides, Tactics, We Love ends , 1 tech->V,M
600 Hides, Machine Tools, 1 tech->V,M,Am
620 Hides, Miniaturization, 1 tech->V,M,Am, 3 Hides to Texcoco (3x519), Mongols sneak attack - lose M Knights
640 Diplomat, Computers, We Love , di Engineers, 1 tech->V,Am
660 Flight, S34, 1 tech->V,Am
680 Radio, We Love ends , 1 tech->V,Am
700 Advanced Flight, 1 tech->V,Am, sold Sewer System
720 Rocketry, 1 tech->V,Am, sold Aqueduct
740 Space Flight, 1 tech->V,Am 100<-V , Aztecs declare war , Hides to Texcoco (270), sold Temple, Z Cannon
760 APOLLO PROGRAM, Plastics, 1 tech->V, 100 , 8 techs->Am, Maps, Hides to Teotihuacan (258)
780 S#01, Atomic Theory, 1 tech->V,Am, 100<-V Hides to Tlatelolco (258), Az Knights, Az Chariot - both Engineers vetted, C Knights
800 S#02, Nuclear Fission, 1 tech->V,Am, 50<-V , C Knights
820 S#03, grassland/r into hills/r
840 S#04, Nuclear Power, 1 tech->V,Am, 50<-V
860 S#05, hills/r mined -> 52 shields, Carthagians: ADAM SMITH'S TRADING CO.
880 S#06, The Laser, 1 tech->V,Am, 50<-V , C Cannon
900 S#07
920 S#08, Superconductor
940 M#01
960 S#09, Fusion Power, Am: S#01
980 S#10, 4,4,7, techs->Z,Az,C, Peace, Maps, 3 techs->M
1000 M#02, bribed Az Dragoons
1020 S#11
1040 S#12, Aztecs: SETI PROGRAM, Carthagians: WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE
1060 S#13, grassland/r into hills/r, Zulus: HOOVER DAM, Vikings take Tabriz
1080 M#03
1100 S#14
1120 S#15, hills/r mined -> 61 shields, di Engineers, Zulus: C#01
1140 C#01, Recycling
1160 C#02, LAUNCH
1196 ALPHA CENTAURI

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[solo]

I’ve been experimenting more with my method of delaying invention from huts (by studying its prerequisites) and have some preliminary results from my tests that I’d like to share. The results so far suggest that:

1) Techs coming from huts are selected randomly, but candidates are weighted before the roll of the dice, making some more likely to appear than others.

2) The chances of picking a favored tech on some lists can be over 80% of the time, and the chances of picking the least favorite can be lower than 1% of the time. This can produce “lucky” as well as “unlucky” streaks, and also explains why many players have observed the “regular” appearance of a certain tech from a hut in certain situations.

3) So far, it appears that these weightings stay the same, as long as the list of candidates that may come from a hut remains the same. Any other manipulations I have tried so far (including my prerequisite studying technique), do not seem to alter the odds at all. Apparent successes of player methods seem more like happy coincidences. I could find no direct cause and effect.

4) Actually learning or trading for one of the techs on the list creates a new list of candidates that can appear from huts, and a new set of weightings.

5) Knowing the weightings in any given situation could be quite helpful. For example, most players try to get to monarchy as quickly as possible. If it is known that certain prerequisites are much more likely to come from huts than others, the path of study can be adjusted to work with the odds instead of against them. Conversely, if an unwanted tech is most likely at a certain time, hut tipping can be deferred.


For those interested in more detail, I’ll describe the tests made so far:

I started playing OCC #23, and got the following from huts before founding Rome:

warrior code, horseback riding, pottery, masonry

Rome was founded, and I saved the game.

The only techs that can come from a hut now are alphabet, bronze working, ceremonial burial and the wheel.

Next turn I picked the wheel for research, a prerequisite of invention. The next tech from a hut was the wheel. Not much of an endorsement of my technique, but I was curious now about how likely it was to get wheel at this time, so I kept reloading and retipping, and was surprised to get the wheel about 7 more times in a row, before anything else showed up. So I tried some other huts. Same deal. The wheel came up much more often than the other 3 techs. I fiddled with the science rate, at one point putting it to zero. No change. I went back to the turn where I founded Rome and started again from that point, picking alphabet to study, instead of wheel. Same results. I tried it again studying ceremonial burial. Still no change. I tried studying wheel again, and did not tip any huts in 3500 B.C. (where I had been testing so far), and tried waiting until 3450 to start tipping. Same results. The wheel was the overwhelming favorite. I tried again, at 3400 but still kept getting the wheel the most. All the while, I kept a little scorecard, ending up with 140 results:

The Wheel - 113 times (81%)
Alphabet - 16 times (11%)
Bronze Working - 10 times (7%)
Ceremonial Burial - 1 time (0.007%)

In each individual test I got at least 10 occurrences of the Wheel, before getting more than 3 of the other 3 techs combined. Far more remarkable than the preference given to the Wheel was the single occurrence of Ceremonial Burial!

So I decided to tip again until I got the wheel, which did not take long, and this time I kept it and continued tipping with only alphabet, bronze working and ceremonial burial as possibilities. A new list of candidates. This time I got alphabet 20 times in a row before getting bronze working from a hut. Amazing! So I tipped again, until I got alphabet, and kept that. Now I had a much more interesting list, because alphabet had opened up map making, writing, code of laws and mathematics as possibilities. I kept tipping on a hut until I got 100 results. (This takes forever, because other hut results besides techs have to be endured and skipped).

Map Making - 26%
Writing - 43%
Code of Laws - 3%
Mathematics - 2%
Bronze Working - 24%
Ceremonial Burial - 2%

I tried another hut getting 50 results with similar percentages. This time there was no overwhelming favorite, but it was fascinating to see 3 techs were favored over 90% of the time!

Well, with such heavy weighting going on, my interest is piqued and I will be making this a little project to work on in my spare time. Maybe when I have enough test results, I can convince oedo to take a look and figure out the x’s and o’s needed to predict the weightings for any list.


(Ribannah, nice going in the no huts version. If you are getting all those allies and gifts with MGE, very well done, because it’s hard to believe. I don’t think I can compete until the copy of 2.42 I ordered arrives.)

[solo]

The original Civ II arrived and I gave 2.42 a first try in this game, the no hut version of OCC #23. What a difference when dealing with the AI, as they stay cheery a lot longer and are less stingy. Now that I had no excuse to lose to Ribannah, I did just that! Came up 6 turns short, which produced a landing 120 years later, but I killed my chances by giving away invention to the AI too soon, as one of them beat me to Leonardo’s while I was busy with Sir Isaac’s. Lack of commodities to trade in the last half of the game also slowed me down, but no excuses, you played a better game, Ribannah. My log and drivel follow:

OCC #23, no huts version. Civ 2.42, deity. 1316 landing.

3950 Rome using 2 gold, 1 whale and 1 wine
3850 Alphabet
3650 Code of Laws
Zulus: peace, give tech
Carthaginians: peace, give tech, alliance
3350 Americans: peace, give tech, alliance
3300 Vikings: peace, give tech, alliance
3150 settlers

>Stole this idea from Ribannah, an early way to size 3 and earlier technology. I didn’t know a settler from your capital at size one is okay before size 2, a real boost in the early game!

3100 size 2, settler joins Rome, presto, size 3
3000 Writing, give it to allies
2950 Aztecs: peace

>Now the horseman, back from the Vikings is home and a Monarchy can be imitated with we love

2800 WLTED starts
2700 Literacy, give it to allies, 25g gift from Americans
2550 Mongols: peace, give tech, alliance
2500 library

>I avoided trading techs until I was a Republic, which came quickly, another idea I stole from Ribannah! However, now I was completely on my own and got to try some of my dumb ideas.

2450 Republic, revolution, government to Republic
Zulus: trade for Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism
Carthaginians: give tech, 50g gift
Vikings: give tech, 50g gift
Americans: give tech
Mongols: trade for bronze, give tech, no gift
2400 temple, start WLTCD at 3

>My previous game using MGE, I lost Rome to the barbarians!
So now I’m cautious, and build a diplomat early. So they ignored my city practically the whole game! I really missed not having early chances at barbarian leaders, or bribed barbarian units to use as disbanders.

2250 diplomat, size 6
2200 Philosophy, Currency
Aztecs: trade for Warrior Code and Pottery, give tech
Zulus: give tech
Americans: give tech, 50g gift
Carthaginians: give tech, no gift
Vikings: ditto
Mongols: trade for Horseback Riding, give tech, no gift

>Now I try something new, an extra early settler to help develop Rome. On the plus side, with two settlers, I was able to fully irrigate and mine by the time I got bridge building, when they continued with roads. On the minus side, size 7 and Colossus were delayed a bit. Also at size 7, I couldn’t keep all 4 workers on the specials without losing 1 food a turn.

2150 settlers
2100 WLTCD restarts at 6
2050 size 7
1900 Zulus: have Map Making
1800 Trade
Zulus: trade for Map Making, share maps
All others: give Map making, share maps
1400 Americans: trade for Masonry, 50g gift
Carthaginians: give Masonry, 100g gift
Mongols and Vikings: ditto, but no gift
1350 Zulus: trade for Monarchy, share maps
1300 Construction
1250 Colossus
1150 dye
Aztecs: trade for Iron Working, share maps
Americans: give tech, 50g gift
1100 Vikings: trade for Banking, no gift
Carthaginians and Mongols: give tech, no gift
1050 hides
925 hides
900 Americans: give tech, 100g gift
Mongols: give tech, 50g gift
875 colosseum, WLTCD starts at 7, Mathematics
850 Vikings: 100g gift
Mongols: 50g gift

>I’m just getting by here, just managing to buy needed improvements with gifts from allies. In MGE, I managed fewer gifts and that slowed me down in the beginning

775 hides, size 11, dye(d) to New York, 381g
750 University, size 12
725 build university
700 hides(d) to Washington, 398g
675 coal, Astronomy

>Another nice thing about having 4 allies was knowing exactly when they discovered something new I could trade for. I think I should have asked for more gifts, but I kept plying them with techs to keep them happily allied, so that I could trade for the things they learned. The only ally showing no signs of stinginess were the Americans. I was afraid of dissolved alliances with the others.

650 Carthaginians: trade for Wheel
625 gold
575 marketplace
550 Mongols: give tech
525 bank, Bridge Building
500 Americans: trade for Seafaring, 25g gift
Zulus, Aztecs and Vikings: give tech, share maps

>Now commodities ran out early, which I prefer to food. This slowed me down, as I was not able to get enough gold quickly enough at this stage in the game to build needed and improvements and wonders without minor delays. Also, many commodities went out of demand as they were approaching their destinations.

475 food
450 hides to Samarkand, 350g
425 food, Medicine, coal to Philadelphia, 226g
Mongols and Carthaginians: give tech
375 Copernicus’ Observatory, Engineering
300 food
275 Sanitation, hides(d) to Samarkand, 560g (more like it!)
250 food, Invention, gold to Washington, 142g (yech!)
225 Shakespeare’s Theater

>Now I give away invention inadvertantly (the AI always demand it). Plans for farmland and a bigger city are now gone. What I will try, is to get to corporation as quickly as possible, and hope for a lot of commodities later that I can speed to AI cities to help generate income and one-turn advances. The game did not cooperate with this plan, but I thought it was my best chance, given the circumstances.

175 WLTCD starts at 12
All AI: give away all tech
150 sewer system, size 13

>Wasted a turn of research here waiting for oedo

125 Democracy, revolution, government to Democracy
100 food, size 15
50 food, Theory of Gravity, size 17
Americans: trade for Navigation, 75g gift
25 food, size 18

AD years

1 food, Americans: 100g gift, barbarian bribed
20 food, Economics
80 Isaac Newton’s College, WLTCD ends at size 22
100 Physics
120 stock exchange
140 Magnetism
160 food
180 Steam Engine
Zulus: have gunpowder
200 food
220 Railroad
Americans: have gunpowder, trade for it

>Beakers needed now jumps from 960 to 1230, what gives?

260 Industrialization
280 food
300 Corporation
320 food
340 Metallurgy
360 food
380 Electricity
400 food

>Finally, commodities start again, but it’s too late

420 hides, Steel
440 hides
460 hides, Chemistry
480 hides
500 hides, Refining

>I tried a new tactic this game. I wanted to gift all tech to the AI, but still had 150 gold I knew some AI would demand, so I gave all my gold to the Americans, before contacting the others. After the giveaway, I played Indian giver, and it worked!

Americans: give them 150 gold and all my tech, share maps
All other AI: give tech, share maps
520 Darwin’s Voyage, Explosives, Combustion
Americans: trade for Conscription, 150g gift
540 Automobile
Americans: 150g gift (interest on my gift!)
560 superhighways, Mass Production
Americans: 150g gift (must have made a good impression!)
580 hides
600 hides, Electronics, hides to Philadelphia, 402g
620 wine, Feudalism, hides to Trondheim, 564g
640 oil, Chivalry, hides to Samarkand, 643g
660 Tactics, hides to Karakorum, 654g

>Pollution is bothering my settlers, who are trying to put in railroads to boost my shields from 25 to 30, so I can finish off structurals after using one food freight. The turn I build mass transit, guess what, more pollution!

680 mass transit, Tactics, hides to Upsala, 618g
700 Machine Tools, hides to Philadelphia, 417g

>Now I want to do a tech giveaway to lower beakers, but I’m sitting on a big pile of gold, not the best way to approach non-allies. I don’t give much thought to the idea of giving it all to the Americans, like I did earlier in the game when I had 150 gold I wanted to protect. So I just choose allies for the giveaway. Miraculously, beakers drop from 1770 down to 1416, within range of my city’s science!

720 food, Miniaturization
All Allies: give away all tech
740 Computers
760 research lab, Flight, hides to Utica, 304g
780 Radio, oil to Boston, 262g
800 food, Advanced Flight, wine(d) to Malaca, 650g
820 Rocketry, (oops, ran out of commodities to deliver)
860 Space Flight
880 Apollo Program

>Now I only have about 9 food freights and 2400 gold to build my rocket ship

900 Plastics
940 Atomic Theory
980 Nuclear Fission
1040 Nuclear Power

>It dawns on me I don’t have enough gold or food freights to finish the job. So I turn to those rich Americans and start selling off city improvements. Just as expected my other allies just aren’t in the mood.

1080 Laser, Americans: give tech, 150g gift
Other Allies: give tech, alliances dissolved
1100 Superconductor, Americans, give tech, 150g gift
1140 Americans: ditto
1160 Americans: ditto
1180 Americans: ditto
1200 Fusion Power, Americans: give tech, 200g gift
1220 Americans: trade for Mobile Warfare, 150g gift
1240 Americans: trade for Monotheism (why not?), 200g gift
1260 Americans: end alliance (enough is enough, I guess)

>Now I was ready to launch. All I had left in Rome was my original settler and a few coins! I even had to disband my diplomat to start that last spaceship part. My rocket, full of parts stolen from America, takes off!

1280 15-1-1-1-1-1 launch

>Now I fully expected barbarians to appear and capture Rome this turn or next, but all was quiet. All the AI were busy making spaceships.

1282 diplomat
1283 armor
1284 engineer
1285 city walls
1286 SAM missile battery
1287 armor
1288 alpine troops
1291 armor
1292 diplomat
1293 bribe American artillery
1294 Zulus: trade for Polytheism, give tech
1295 fighter
1296 Americans: I give them 750 gold, new alliance!
1297 bribe Zulu cannon
1298 fighter
1301 expel Aztec diplomat
1306 bribe Zulu cavalry
1308 engineer
1310 Cure for Cancer
1312 Manhattan Project
1313 Great Wall

>Now it was time to fully repay my debt to the Americans

1315 Lighthouse, bribe Aztec cavalry
Americans: give them 1450 gold and join them in an alliance vs. the Aztecs
1316 arrival on Alpha Centauri

Scenario score: 331

Well, now it’s on to OCC #24. I played a regular game once without wonders, even waiting for the AI to build Apollo. It was a real race to AC. I’m looking forward to the OCC version. I think it will prove how wonderful it is to have wonders.

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It is more pleasant to live in the corner of a housetop,
than in a wide house with a brawling woman.

[Xin Yu]

Bump