English or British?

[Rogan Josh]

On all the list of civs I have seen it says one of the civs is the English, but on a few screen shots, it mentions ithe 'British'. For example, on one of the newer screenshots it has a picture (on the foreign advisor bit) showing Elizibeth I with the subtitle 'Queen Elizabeth of Britain' (which is wrong whichever way you look at it, but never mind).

So what are they - the English or the British?

[Gramphos]

They are named the English at www.civ3.com, so I think that is the truth.

[Dauphin]

There an identical thread like this about a week ago. I thin MarkG pointed out that its the English civ and the country is Britain, or that its the British civ and the country is England. Can't remember which way round it is.

Anyway its some kind of unforgiveable error of that kind going on.

[Transcend]

Does it matter? Everyone outside of the British Isle is going to view English and British being the same. Can you guys on the Island just stop distinguishing from each other and be happy to be members of a big family?

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Transcend
Does it matter? Everyone outside of the British Isle is going to view English and British being the same. Can you guys on the Island just stop distinguishing from each other and be happy to be members of a big family?

The one that started this thread is from Germany, and from what I've learned that isn't located on the British Isle.

[Dauphin]

RJ is British, he just lives in Germany at the moment.

There is a big important difference between English and British. Go to Scotland, ask if they are English and you may find that you wake up in hospital. If you are lucky you will just be shouted at very loudly for a couple of minutes.

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by Transcend
Does it matter? Everyone outside of the British Isle is going to view English and British being the same. Can you guys on the Island just stop distinguishing from each other and be happy to be members of a big family?

No, I don't live in the British Isles and I don't view British and English the same.

Allow me to correct your statement: everyone of Anglo-Saxon descent outside of the British Isle is going to view English and British being the same. (Bcos the Australians, Americans, Canadians all want to see themselves different. Very little people outside of the Anglo-Saxon world would see much difference between Americans, British, Australians etc and would probably just identify them as "English speaking peoples".) Can you guys in the English speaking world just stop distinguishing from each other and be happy to be members of a big family?

So it does matter. It's probably less confusing for people outside the English speaking world if the civ is British instead.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
RJ is British, he just lives in Germany at the moment.

Aha

There is a big important difference between English and British. Go to Scotland, ask if they are English and you may find that you wake up in hospital. If you are lucky you will just be shouted at very loudly for a couple of minutes.

I know that. Actually I'm that sort of person that want everything correct regardless if it concerns me or not.

[Transcend]

Sunzi, your example about English-speaking people is a bad one: They live all over the world, across many different time zones, lattitudes, and geopgraphic areas. It's understandable that these people are quite different. But Britain is a small Island(smaller than Japan)and should be considered a quite homogeneous unit. But apparently its inhabitants are not getting well along with their neighbors at all. I find it hard to believe that separatism and ethnic antagonism are running rampant on that small piece of real estate.

I think Firaxis should use Britsh as opposed to English. After all, British Empire was not only founded by the English.

Originally posted by Transcend
I find it hard to believe that separatism and ethnic antagonism are running rampant on that small piece of real estate.

Scotland is thinking about going along.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Transcend
I think Firaxis should use Britsh as opposed to English. After all, British Empire was not only founded by the English.

Try studying English history...

The English Empire was renamed British Empire in the 19th Century (~1850). By which time, most of the colonial possessions that the empire was going to get were in English hands.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Big Crunch


Try studying English history...

The English Empire was renamed British Empire in the 19th Century (~1850). By which time, most of the colonial possessions that the empire was going to get were in English hands.

I know English history. I just wanted to point out that Scots and Irish also made tremendous contribution to the British Empire.

[Melios]

In Civilization, the "English" seemed to be based on the UK/British. So British would make more sense, because I don't think Scotland and Wales is exactly "England."

[Sun Zi 36]

Originally posted by Transcend
I think Firaxis should use Britsh as opposed to English. After all, British Empire was not only founded by the English.

Is that what u said b4? U said it doesn't matter British or English bcos ppl will view them the same.

Actually, my point about the English speaking peoples is not an example. The fact that people outside the English speaking world view those inside pretty much part of the same civ makes the word "English" civ confusing. "British", on the other hand, definitely means those on the Isle. So firaxis should've made it "British" to clear up confusions.

Since u NOW think it does matter whether it's British or English, there's no disagreement now anyway.

[Dauphin]

I know English history. I just wanted to point out that Scots and Irish also made tremendous contribution to the British Empire.

I s'pose people from Wales did nothing then

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
I s'pose people from Wales did nothing then

Sounds about right, yep

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
RJ is British, he just lives in Germany at the moment.

There is a big important difference between English and British. Go to Scotland, ask if they are English and you may find that you wake up in hospital. If you are lucky you will just be shouted at very loudly for a couple of minutes.

Actually I am Scottish

BC: The country was called 'Great Britain' (actualy something like 'the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland' - Ireland was at that time 'British' and the 'Great' part is to distinguish it from 'Lesser Britain' which is the english name for Britany (sp?) in France) from the act of union in 1707.

But it doesn't matter how you look at it, Elizabeth I was never Queen of Britain. It would be like renaming the American civ as 'New England'.

[Dauphin]

British, Scottish same thing.

I have Welsh (ggp), Irish(2*ggp) and English(5*ggp) blood, but alas no Scots blood.

I was also refering to the Empire not the country. Ireland became part of the "country" in 1801, not 1707 IIRC. Of course it was run by the English for centuries prior to that.

[fluffy]

What you call the country and people depends on when you are looking at them: if Elizabeth I is the representative leader (and she seems to be in the screenshots), the country can only be England (plus Wales), as she was definitely not queen of Scotland (or Great Britain).

To make things easier, maybe the country could just be called "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

(btw, the 'Great' in Great Britain comes not from some imperial description, but to differentiate it from 'Lesser Britain' or Brittany...)

[red_jon]

There have been a few threads on this and I believe I stated the first

Markos said that the race will be 'English' and the country 'Britain'. Hence we see 'Queen Elizabeth of Britain' AND the civlisation chioce 'English'.

It's wrong, very, very wrong. If they don't change it we're gonna have 'Queen Elizabeth of Britain' AND 'Queen Elizabeth of the English'. I e-mailed Firaxis a while ago about this but they didn't get back to me.

C'mon, Sid! Even Activision didn't make this mistake

[Rogan Josh]

although it would be really silly for Firaxis to get this wrong, they are in good company. Why, for heaven's sake is Queen Elizabeth called Elizabeth II, when she is Queen of a different country compared with Elizabeth I?

[Dauphin]

Well after James II/VI they probably got a bit bored with the long winded nature of the titles. As England is the more important they stuck with the domination of the English throne in the Royal merger.

[Chris Horscroft]

I am of the view that the whole civilisation should be called "Anglo-saxons". It's leader should be Alfred the Great, and it should replace the English/British and the Americans, neither of which should be in Civ3.

Sun Zi is right about the perceived similarities between the English speaking peoples of various modern nations.

Transcend, I find it hard to see how you can doubt that people will fight over very small pieces of real estate. Look at Macedonia, and for that matter, the rest of Former Yugoslavia, or the Walonia/Flanders disputes in Belgium. People will assert their nationality or their ideology no matter what.

And just in case anyone is interested in convoluted English nationalities: My father was English, my mother a New Zealander, I have dual nationality (British and Australian) and my wife has dual nationality (Canadian and Australian). (She was also born in Jamaica.)

[Keygen]

Originally posted by Transcend
Does it matter? Everyone outside of the British Isle is going to view English and British being the same.

I don't think so...

Scottish, Welsh and Irish are all direct descendants of the Celts while English are descendants of the Aglo-Saxons who somehow are related to the Germanic tribes that appeared in central and western Europe after the Celts.

English are closer to the Germans than to Scottish
Not to mention Norwegian and Normadian populations that inhabited England and were mixed with the Aglo-Saxons at later times.

So English, Scottish and Welsh are British because they all live in Great Britain but Scottish or Welsh are not English and vice versa.

[Melios]

The Angloes & Saxons WERE the Germanic tribes athat settled on the British Isles. They had an edge against the Celts since they were more aggressive and more resistant to the Plague (that was around the time of the first major outbreak).

[Kenobi]

Originally posted by Keygen

I don't think so...

Scottish, Welsh and Irish are all direct descendants of the Celts while English are descendants of the Aglo-Saxons who somehow are related to the Germanic tribes that appeared in central and western Europe after the Celts.

English are closer to the Germans than to Scottish
Not to mention Norwegian and Normadian populations that inhabited England and were mixed with the Aglo-Saxons at later times.

So English, Scottish and Welsh are British because they all live in Great Britain but Scottish or Welsh are not English and vice versa.

It's a myth that the Romano-Celts inhabiting South-East Britain were either totally eliminated or pushed into Scotland, Wales and Brittany. There must have been considerable mixing of Celts, Angles, Saxons and Jutes (those poor buggers rarely get a mention, do they?) in what became England. Likewise, the Vikings (Danes and Norwegians) and Normans contributed to the pool. Genetic testing has confirmed that few regions (e.g. Western Ireland, the Shetlands) of the British and Irish isles have a "pure" strain of anything - the British are a robust, mongrel breed of all the peoples that invaded the islands.

The English, Scots, Welsh, Irish and Manx all like to differentiate themselves from each other, but they are all closer than they like to admit. I agree with the proposal to replace the English with the "British".

[Dauphin]

The Angloes & Saxons WERE the Germanic tribes athat settled on the British Isles. They had an edge against the Celts since they were more aggressive and more resistant to the Plague (that was around the time of the first major outbreak).

Why would they have been more resistant to the plague?

Also the Angles and Saxons (and Jutes ) settled England at least five centuries before the first outbreak of plague.

I agree with the proposal to replace the English with the "British".

It depends on what attributes and cities are included. To have Aberdeen or Aberystwyth as English cities would be ridiculous, but if there aren't any Welsh or Scottish references then it should be kept as English.

[KrazyHorse]

Hey, Lizzie's from a Welsh family, so they should certainly include the Welsh. Also, the Union with Scotland went through in 1701, IIRC(less than a century after she died), and many of the events which brought renown to Britain took place after that, so IMHO, the civ should be called British.

[Rogan Josh]

They would have been better calling them the British and having Victoria in charge, I suppose they would have to update the SU from man-o-war to a 19thC ship too.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Melios
The Angloes & Saxons WERE the Germanic tribes athat settled on the British Isles.

And the Frisians, who settled mainly in Kent