Scenario League's Sovereignity

St Leo · September 2, 2001, 20:31

Scenario League (and by extension the Spanish CivII Site, Art of War, HAC, etc.) are not part of Apolyton. They are small sites that are hosted by a bigger site, Apolyton. We also share a bulletin board with the said site.

Apolyton has a certain OT forum for "off-topic" discussion. Ignoring the highly intellectual quality of discussion there and overwhelming volume, I do not think that we should be required by the rules to keep the off-topic posts of Hosted Sites there. The Spanish CivII Site's forum is full of threads that are more Spanish than CivII. Ergo, the discussions we hold within our League are no more "off-topic" than the discussions we hold about Scenarios.

To summarize, Scenario League's forum is not part of the same jurisdiction as the CivII Creation forum and the Off-Topic forum; therefore, we do not have a designated off-topic area and all reasonable off-topic threads such as those dealing communal birthday celebrations, political events, and non-scenario computer games belong in here if the target audience are the members of the Scenario League.

Jay Bee · September 2, 2001, 21:02

1) While the HS's, strictly speaking, are not part of Apolyton, they are living under its roof and therefore must follow its policies and practices. Under such roof, however, they are entitled to their own internal rules.

2) The Spanish Civ2 Site and the Scenario League have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Ditto for their respective fora. Please don't make the mistake of comparing apples with oranges.

3) In the end, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

H Tower · September 3, 2001, 01:12

It also depends on the moderator. The rules can go out the window or be changed if the moderator doesn't care. so what say you, o great WarVoid?

Case · September 3, 2001, 01:58

I vote that we keep this forum on-topic (more or less

)

There's a perfectally good off-topic forum already - why stuff around with this one?

H Tower · September 3, 2001, 02:20

what case said. even though warvoid could open things up some. it probably wouldn't be that great an idea

MagyarCrusader · September 3, 2001, 03:00

Oh my, I am truly shocked. I actually agree with St.Leo. Doesn't really matter though, the SLeague is all but dead now so changing hosts is not an option. :banned: I post rather sporadically these days, so other than my below the belt sarcasm (see Allard thread), I really don't care.

St Leo · September 3, 2001, 19:40

It also depends on the moderator. The rules can go out the window or be changed if the moderator doesn't care. so what say you, o great WarVoid?

Markos would probably make me a moderator if I begged enough. Of course, I don't really care enough to ask.

There's a perfectally good off-topic forum already - why stuff around with this one?

1. Because it's not perfectly good.

2. The target audience is different.

Oh my, I am truly shocked. I actually agree with St.Leo.

Bah, our fights are long forgotten.

Doesn't really matter though, the SLeague is all but dead now so changing hosts is not an option.

The developer community is still there and we get some fresh blood from time to time.

Case · September 3, 2001, 19:48

Quote:

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Doesn't really matter though, the SLeague is all but dead

I'd disagree with that!
While the SLeague itself is dead, and this message boad isn't the busiest place in the world, there are still quite a few people posting.
Also, I'd imagine that if Civ3 has good scenario editing tools (as the developers claim it has), then this site will see a lot more action come november.

SunTzu · September 4, 2001, 01:07

Why don't you all come to www.civfanatics.com
We're alive and kicking

Sorry had to promote

Leonidas · September 4, 2001, 02:15

Civ2 and the SL are alive and well, especially with the great scenarios that are still coming out.

Case · September 4, 2001, 02:26

Quote:

Originally posted by SunTzu
Why don't you all come to www.civfanatics.com
We're alive and kicking

Just to add to SunTzu's plug, civfanatics now has scenario reviews, just like those Sleague used to do

BTW, happy birthday H Tower!

Jay Bee · September 4, 2001, 03:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Case

I'd disagree with that!
While the SLeague itself is dead, and this message boad isn't the busiest place in the world, there are still quite a few people posting.
Also, I'd imagine that if Civ3 has good scenario editing tools (as the developers claim it has), then this site will see a lot more action come november.

The original idea behind this forum is also dead. As is now, this forum strongly overlaps with Civ2 Creation (this one wins however). Practically all the things being posted here would actually fit in the other forum. For those of us who have been here from the beginning, it's interesting to see how the directions changed. I guess the departure of the father founders (Blackclove & Cam) had much to do with this.

Stefan Härtel · September 4, 2001, 10:14

I do wonder what the future of this forum is. SLeague hasn't been updated for I think half a year now, and I don't really think it will have much public encouragement, especially because Civfanatics has recently launched it's own version. If we're lucky no-one will notice, but I don't know what will happen once Civ3 will be out.
The other question that interests me personally very much is wether there will still be Civ2 scenarios after Civ3 is out. Sure we'll have to wait till the game is really out and spend one or two weeks playing the game before it can actually be told. But I'm afraid we will not be offered the same experiences and possibilities as with Civ2. From what I've heard by now the game will be layed out to make scenario design easy. I don't know if I will have the same fun from that as with Civ2. I don't know how others will feel about it...

Jay Bee · September 4, 2001, 11:10

Well, I'm basically with you on that one. I am not particularly motivated with Civ3 scenario design at this time.

Chris 62 · September 4, 2001, 11:24

Well, I believe what prompted this was Mark locking a thread here the other day, but I could be wrong.

What should this forum be? What it has always been, a place to discuss future and current scenario projects, show show previews of said games, post a bit of PBEM of scenarios, and to field questions on history and such.

As for that other stuff, birthdays ect, I think it really has no place here, this is a more technical forum.

Now for the next order of buisness, Civfanatic's Scenario review section.
As a courtisy, I have not promoted that here (I created it, and edit it under my Civfanatics name, Alcibiaties of Athenae, or simply, AoA) because i believed it bad form to promote another site on Mark's hosted sites. However, Mark's people (Snapcase, in this instance) seem to have to problem with telling people to come to poly, and posting links to it, in CFC's forums, so therefore I WILL talk about the review forum now.

Since the League site went out during the winter, there has been noplace to read reviews about scenarios, old and new, by the people who make them and play them, and this was a real strength of the league. I felt that this was a feature that could be recreated, after a fashion, at Civfanatics, and this has come to pass, the review section lives there, not as a hosted site, but as an integral part of Civfanatics, so it will live as long as the site does, and it IS the #2 civ site, and isn't leaving.

I'm dismayed by your comment Stefan, "If we're lucky no-one will notice", I hope your not referring to all our hard work and effort, that it should be dismissed out of hand. The people who work with me in the reviews may be known to some of you, and we are just as interested and passionate about Civ scenarios as anyone involved in the SL ever was.

To talk about those people, let me mention there names.
John Valdez, whom many of you know (and who has made an apperance here), has designed a number of scenarios, and continues to be extremly prolific in producing scenarios.
Kobayshi, who set the SL on it's ear with his two fantastic Star Trek scenarios, and since then has added 2 more scenarios, and who knows more about the game then most people you will meet.
WillenVanOrangie is probaly unkown to most of you, yet he has created a very fine Dutch mod-pack, and an excellent Voyager scenario, and has also playtested many scenarios.
Sun Tzu, whom you see in this very thread, has play-tested so many scenarios about WW II I have lost count, and can always be found when a new Nemo design is in the works.
As for myself, a number of the designers here know me well as a play-tester and commentator on scenarios, and have given me a credit in there work, but I'll let them fill those in, not myself.

What all this means is, simply, don't sell us short because we are not under Apolyton's banner, not a sister site.
We are not in compition with Poly (we would lose that), but we are a site in our own right, and I wish some of you would give our scenario section and our review area a chance, as it will be worth your while.

You can find it easy, just follow the Civfanatics link in my signature, it leads to Civfanatic's homepage, and the review section and scenario forum can be easily found from there.

Thanks for your time.

our_man · September 4, 2001, 13:31

That the SLeague website is dead is pretty obvious, but is there any chance of reviving it? I mean, why did it die? Lack of reviews/interest? Or was there no-one to update it? Is Warvoid just meant to be a moderator of this forum, or is he meant to be in charge of updating the site as well?

Surely there's somebody who'd be willing to maintain the site.

Goingonit · September 4, 2001, 13:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Stefan Härtel
I'm afraid we will not be offered the same experiences and possibilities as with Civ2. From what I've heard by now the game will be layed out to make scenario design easy. I don't know if I will have the same fun from that as with Civ2. I don't know how others will feel about it...

I know what you mean. If it's too easy, then there is a large possibility that they will leave something out, whereas in Civ 2, they just put the game data in commented textfiles and .gifs and let the Civ 2 community discover it for themselves. This is perfect, and, in fact, better than the editing tools, as we can use Paint Shop Pro and our favourite text editor. It also supports user addins for scenario design. Then again, maybe Civ 3 will be great in all respects...?

MarkG · September 4, 2001, 14:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris 62
As a courtisy, I have not promoted that here (I created it, and edit it under my Civfanatics name, Alcibiaties of Athenae, or simply, AoA) because i believed it bad form to promote another site on Mark's hosted sites. However, Mark's people (Snapcase, in this instance) seem to have to problem with telling people to come to poly, and posting links to it, in CFC's forums, so therefore I WILL talk about the review forum now.

chris, you are complaining because snapcase responded to someone who asked what is apolyton?

meanwhile, you are promoting civfanatics with your sig(which is perfectly fine of course)....

Quote:

Since the League site went out during the winter, there has been noplace to read reviews about scenarios, old and new, by the people who make them and play them, and this was a real strength of the league.

our civ2 database has had player reviews for ages now....

Gothmog · September 4, 2001, 16:03

Quote:

Originally posted by our_man
That the SLeague website is dead is pretty obvious, but is there any chance of reviving it? I mean, why did it die? Lack of reviews/interest? Or was there no-one to update it?

Since Blackclove and Cam departed there has been no-one to update it. That sort of scared off reviewers and tip writers. Why bother with preparing a review if no-one is going to post it.

Why there has been no-one to update, I'm not sure if that has been due to lack of volunteers or technical problems.

Finally, I would not mind it if the Scenario Creation forum and this one were merged. It would be one less forum to check.

Stefan Härtel · September 4, 2001, 17:08

Quote:

I'm dismayed by your comment Stefan, "If we're lucky no-one will notice", I hope your not referring to all our hard
work and effort, that it should be dismissed out of hand. The people who work with me in the reviews may be known
to some of you, and we are just as interested and passionate about Civ scenarios as anyone involved in the SL ever
was.

Sorry, if you misunderstood it. I didn't mean to say that in regards to the Civfanatics efforts. As a matter of fact, I find it to be of vital importance to the Civ2 scenario designer's community that there is a forum for players to give their comments and really express their thoughts. SLeague was such a forum, but now it's dead, and Civfanatics has taken over the spot -rightfully, I think- and I really appreciate that. What I meant is "If we're lucky no-one will notice we're on a discussion forum to a dead site".
Sorry again if you misunderstood it, it wasn't what I meant.

I still believe the SLeague forum is a very good way of getting help with scenario creation and publishing them as well.

Regarding that Promotion stuff, IMHO the internet is a community and no commercial rivalty. Pages live off other pages. That's why it should be allowed to remark the progress of other sites.

Quote:

I know what you mean. If it's too easy, then there is a large possibility that they will leave something out, whereas
in Civ 2, they just put the game data in commented textfiles and .gifs and let the Civ 2 community discover it for
themselves. This is perfect, and, in fact, better than the editing tools, as we can use Paint Shop Pro and our
favourite text editor. It also supports user addins for scenario design. Then again, maybe Civ 3 will be great in all
respects...?

I do remember when I discovered that the text files were editable. You know, I wasn't really into this kind of thing back then, I was even afraid to touch the Windows Explorer. It was incredible to discover what was possible, and I simply couldn't stop it.
Even now, I discover new things within these files, and everytime it gets more fun. I fear that Civ3 will include an easy-to-use editor for things like the tech tree. Recently I made a fully new tech tree for a scenario that will most propably not be realized, but I sat hours on that just because I had to think of logical ways for tech distribution and ways to get over the limitations without touching those critical techs. I simply am afraid that this fun will get lost in Civ3.

Goingonit · September 4, 2001, 17:40

Quote:

Even now, I discover new things within these files, and everytime it gets more fun. I fear that Civ3 will include an easy-to-use editor for things like the tech tree. Recently I made a fully new tech tree for a scenario that will most propably not be realized, but I sat hours on that just because I had to think of logical ways for tech distribution and ways to get over the limitations without touching those critical techs. I simply am afraid that this fun will get lost in Civ3.

Having just made a new tech tree this afternoon (for an Ancient Greece scen) I agree with you. And also, if it's too easy, then everyone can do it. If it's too easy to design a scenario, and even make it look nice, then there will be a lot of eye candy that plays horribly. I wouldn't want to see the overall quality of scenarios go down.

Fiera · September 4, 2001, 18:01

Hmm... Firstly, there are also some Civ2 scns that weren't any good (mostly old ones, made before the release of FW). And if Civ3 has an easy scn editor that should mean that we will have more good scns, not the opposite.

I doubt that the fun of making scns will be less because the editor is easier to use. Anyway, Stefan, I'm sure that original and innovative scenario creators like you will always find ways to push the envelope, by toying with the game files, rather than just using the provided tools.

Stefan Härtel · September 4, 2001, 18:18

Quote:

Having just made a new tech tree this afternoon (for an Ancient Greece scen) I agree with you. And also, if it's too
easy, then everyone can do it. If it's too easy to design a scenario, and even make it look nice, then there will be
a lot of eye candy that plays horribly. I wouldn't want to see the overall quality of scenarios go down.

Maybe that's the satisfaction I get from my work. I am never really good at things to say the least, and that's why precisely the ability to change such things as the rules.txt in Civ2 and knowing exactly what's going to happen is what satisfies me. I don't know.

Quote:

I doubt that the fun of making scns will be less because the editor is easier to use. Anyway, Stefan, I'm sure that
original and innovative scenario creators like you will always find ways to push the envelope, by toying with the
game files, rather than just using the provided tools.

I'm not sure, I am actually of that sort who comfort with given things though I dislike them. Call me lazy or whatever, it took me three years to actually find out the facts that there were scenarios on the internet and that I could edit the game files...
Well, we shall see...

(Sorry for boring you with my personal characteristica analysis)

Chris 62 · September 4, 2001, 20:48

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
chris, you are complaining because snapcase responded to someone who asked what is apolyton?

Please don't misunderstand, Mark.
I didn't have a problem with it per see, is was the way it was posted at CFC that brought it to my attention.
I'm sure your well aware that I have always supported Apolton at Civfanatics, and consider this site every bit as much my home as CFC.
I was simply reluctant to promote CFC here, so as not to insult you.
Katharos ?

Quote:

meanwhile, you are promoting civfanatics with your sig(which is perfectly fine of course)....

I wouldn't have a problem with that at CFC either.

Quote:

our civ2 database has had player reviews for ages now....

I know about the point system, I meant in a fashion similar to the SL stlye.

BTW, when I log into Apoplyton.Net, why isn't new downloads and news displayed?
All I see is navigation aids.

SunTzu · September 4, 2001, 21:43

Oh Stefan, i'm having a delay in playtesting your alexander scenario. I had to wipe out all of my civ2 files cause of some virus or something. And i wasn't think and i erased all of my work that i was making on your scenario, so i have to download it again. I'll email you with progress.

William Keenan · September 5, 2001, 08:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Gothmog

Since Blackclove and Cam departed there has been no-one to update it. That sort of scared off reviewers and tip writers. Why bother with preparing a review if no-one is going to post it.

Why there has been no-one to update, I'm not sure if that has been due to lack of volunteers or technical problems.

The reason the Scenario League site has not been updated was because Cam could not FTP to the gamestats server for reasons unknown and unresolved.

Gothmog · September 5, 2001, 09:05

Ahh, technical problems then. I'd forgotten that Cam had unresolved ftp problems.

Jay Bee · September 5, 2001, 09:32

Probably the same sort of tech probls that prevented DarthVeda from taking over the CSC...

William Keenan · September 5, 2001, 11:17

Cam had been asking for someone to take over SLeague site without much success. I'm sure the job is still open if anyone is interested. I would have liked to do it myself, but I'm already webmaster for the Cradle of Civilization and that is more than enough commitment.

Kull · September 6, 2001, 00:01

Quote:

Originally posted by William Keenan

The reason the Scenario League site has not been updated was because Cam could not FTP to the gamestats server for reasons unknown and unresolved.

That was one of the reasons I quit my job as Clash of Civs Web Editor. This is no slam at Dan or Markos, since they tried hard to resolve the problem (something to do with my move from dial-up to DSL), but Gamestats never came up with a workable solution.

Since the "Fate of the Sleeg" discussion seems intimately bound to the impending arrival of Civ3, let me share some thoughts on that subject.

Personally, this whole waiting for Godot...uh....Civ3 experience has been deflating from a scenario development standpoint. How many great Civ1 scenarios saw the light of day after Civ2 came out? And did anyone care? Hopefully Civ3 will be a revelation, and we'll all be licking our lips over a wondrous new game engine that is both tweakable and capable of simulating things never before tried. That's one of the reasons I spent so much time on Clash and even (very) briefly abandoned Civ2 for the CTP's. Gameplay issues aside, the worst thing about the CTP experience was discovering just how difficult it was to customize them for scenarios. Graphics in particular were a designers nightmare. We've had lots of discussions here about the importance of new art. But just imagine trying to create exciting new scenarios using the same, tired old stable of 50+ units. Forget it! If you added up all the non-Microprose icons, units, cities, terrain, and people, the number of new images would number in the thousands! In CTP? Maybe 10 or 12, tops. So as each tantalizing bit of Civ3 info is released, I keep noticing unsettling similarities to CTP.....all of which adds up to a whiff of something not quite right.

The scary thing about Civ3 is that she's really the last hope for a large-market, commercial game of this genre. If she fails, what are we left with? Tweaking and retweaking the same old Civ2 engine, and turning out scenarios for the benefit of an ever-diminishing audience? I suspect many of you feel much as I do on this. Looking forward to Civ3, yet fearful of all it may portend.