The Lone Engineer at Work (started by Gastrifidis, stolen by SlowThinker)

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 03-15-2001 11:39 AM Originally posted by La Fayette on 03-15-2001 10:18 AM BTW has anyone established a list summing up the results of transforming special squares (such as irrigating a pheasant and getting a buffalo)? rather than ask that the testing laboratories of Albi or Praha be reactivated (considering the number of innocent young spies that have died for the true cause in those laboratories - they probably have 'War Grave' status) ...

All of these young and highly desirable young spies certainly deserve 'War Grave' status (never mind, I tell you a secret: one of them is buried under the Arc de Triomphe and named 'soldat inconnu').

ST
Thank you for the link.(I was about to re-open my lab and do some more testing; I confess it's more fun playing, especially when it is a test game as Jospin, revered leader of the french, to try and find out whether he also gets some techs as gifts, just alike Thatchy did last week).

[solo]

LaFayette - The list is as follows:

whale, wheat, oil, silk, wine, iron, furs, spice and bananas are in one group, the special appearing depending on the terrain type.

fish, buffalo, oasis, pheasant, coal, gold, game, ivory, peat and gems are in the other group, the special appearing depending on the terrain type.

If the terrain is grassland, the special disappears, which is why a special can sometimes pop up in a grassland square that has been transformed into another terrain type.

OK, since no one else volunteered to answer to my question, I'll do it myself!

quote: Originally posted by Marko_Polo on 03-16-2001 08:59 AM Does someone know how this Xin's trick of getting more than two engineers/settlers work at the same square works? It would be very useful in OCC games if you have for example two settlers and one engineer and want to clear pollution during one turn. Also transforming a mountain to a hill quickly would be nice..

Here is the link to Xin Yu's trick of multiple engineers doing transforming in one turn:

A scroll of Xin's inexhaustible wisdom

quote: Btw, is there any way to create mountains? A gold mountain would be cool to have sometimes in OCC.

AFAIK: no, there isn't.

(edit: typo)

[This message has been edited by Marko_Polo (edited March 17, 2001).]

[debeest]

Monsieur La Fayette, I think you're quite right. IIRC, I was "correcting" William Keenan's original statement that transformation took 20 settler turns. (He's now corrected that post, so I'm not positive that's what it first said.) And in my haste, I added my own error. Should be 20 engineer turns, not possible for settlers.

[Ming]

quote: Here is the link to Xin Yu's trick of multiple engineers doing transforming in one turn

When Xin Yu explained this to me, the first thing I thought was...
"now how in hell did he figure this one out" Think about it

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 03-16-2001 08:59 PM whale, wheat, oil, silk, wine, iron, furs, spice and bananas are in one group, the special appearing depending on the terrain type. fish, buffalo, oasis, pheasant, coal, gold, game, ivory, peat and gems are in the other group, the special appearing depending on the terrain type. .

Short, clear and simple.
I keep it in mind.
Thank you.

[La Fayette]

Solo
Not so simple as it seems at first sight (I found out why: you did not mention that oil can be encountered either on desert or glacier tiles).

[debeest]

Still simple. Whatever the terrain, if you transform a special, there's only one special for the corresponding terrain in the other group. Note that pheasant = game, so although there are nine in one list and ten in the other, they really do match up.

On second thought, what's the alternate special on glacier? I guess there is none.
[This message has been edited by debeest (edited March 21, 2001).]

[Gastrifitis]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 03-21-2001 11:55 AM On second thought, what's the alternate special on glacier? I guess there is none. [This message has been edited by debeest (edited March 21, 2001).]

Glacier can be Oil or Ivory.

[Sieve Too]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 03-16-2001 08:59 PM If the terrain is grassland, the special disappears, which is why a special can sometimes pop up in a grassland square that has been transformed into another terrain type.

Not exactly. Grassland squares with a special "hidden" under them always have a shield. Shield grass has a pattern separate from the special terrain pattern. If you find shield grass that is outside the normal pattern but does fall into the special pattern, you can bet your bottom dollar that changing the terrain will uncover a special.

[Scouse Gits]

...and there are hidden specials to be found from some non-shield grassland tiles as well.
--------------
SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

Don't forget that huts are always two squares orthogonally from a special - if no visible special fits your hut there will be a hidden one - this + the special pattern itself makes finding some hidden specials dead easy ...

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Xin Yu]

Quick note: turns required for settler/engineer work are based on defense bonus, not move cost.

[Gastrifitis]

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 03-22-2001 01:19 PM Quick note: turns required for settler/engineer work are based on defense bonus, not move cost.

I assume by defense bonus you mean the listed defense number of the unit, not the actual defense bonus which can be affected by veteran status.

[William Keenan]

quote: Originally posted by Gastrifitis on 03-22-2001 03:21 PM I assume by defense bonus you mean the listed defense number of the unit, not the actual defense bonus which can be affected by veteran status.

I believe he means the defensive bonus of the terrain. For example it takes longer to build a road on a plains square with a river then without.

[Xin Yu]

William is correct

[Gastrifitis]

Then why does it take longer to reforest a plains square than a grassland square?

[Xin Yu]

Actually there maybe an easier way to use more than two settlers/enginners. The idea comes from here:
Look at the last post by Harlan

I have not tested it but I think it will work this way:
Move settlers/engineers to the squares they want to work and press 'W' to let them wait;
Move all other units first and press 'S' to sentry them if they still have move points left at the end of their turn;
Now select a square and let the settlers/engineers work. The first square won't change immediately (if it requires more than 2 units to finish) but the second and all squares after will (thus you should choose your first square carefully, building a road is a good choice, for example).
There may be a way to get the first square work as well. If I have time I'll test it.
-- [edit: tested it. Seems that it only works if the settlers hasn't been moved. Hence it takes one turn to move the settlers there, then you can finish the job within the next turn if you have enough settlers. The first square will work as well. the trick here is 'never use mouse');

Another related hint: if you move a settler on road/river, you can move it two squares then let it work (mining) to accumulate work 'experience'. This will save you time. For example, I did that in 'Lord of Rings' scenario and moved my dwarves that way. When the dwarves reached the enemy city, an instant fortress was built right next to it and my units got protection.

[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited March 22, 2001).]

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 03-22-2001 12:37 PM I have not tested it but I think it will work this way: Move settlers/engineers to the squares they want to work and press 'W' to let them wait; Move all other units first and press 'S' to sentry them if they still have move points left at the end of their turn; Now select a square and let the settlers/engineers work. The first square won't change immediately (if it requires more than 2 units to finish) but the second and all squares after will (thus you should choose your first square carefully, building a road is a good choice, for example). There may be a way to get the first square work as well. If I have time I'll test it. -- [edit: tested it. Seems that it only works if the settlers hasn't been moved. Hence it takes one turn to move the settlers there, then you can finish the job within the next turn if you have enough settlers. The first square will work as well. the trick here is 'never use mouse');

Does this work also in the situation where those (multiple) settlers need more that one turn to finish their work. I mean, if you haven't got enough settlers for example to build a mine on a hill in one turn?

(edit: typo)


[This message has been edited by Marko Polo (edited March 23, 2001).]

[Xin Yu]

quote: Originally posted by Gastrifitis on 03-22-2001 10:43 PM Then why does it take longer to reforest a plains square than a grassland square?

a) Building Fortress ('f') and Airbase ('e') requires the same number of turns on all terrain types (4 settler turns or 2 engineer turns).
b) Irrigating/farming ('i') and Minging ('m') requires the 'base' turns specified in rules.txt. Terrain factor is not considered (in a sense it is already considered), and I don't think river matters.
c) Building road/railroad ('r') requires the same numbers of 'base' turns (2 settler/1 engineer) modified by defense bonus of terrain and river.
d) transforming terrain ('o') (engineer only) requires the same numbers of 'base' turns, modified by defense bonus of terrain and river. The base can be modified in the first section of rules.txt. It is 20 settler/ 10 engineer turns but only engineers can perform.
--[edit]: Clean pollution ('p') follows rule a). Railroads requires longer (double?) base turns than roads.

In rules.txt: mining grass, 10 turns; mining plain, 15 turns. Hence it takes an engineer (x2 working rate) 5 turns to mine a grass to forest, 8 turns to mine a plain to forest.


[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited March 23, 2001).]

[Kuciwalker]

[QUOTE]
I tried couple of tests:
1. Units don't rotate, they are arranged into a line. "Normally" you go through this line to one edge, you "rebound" back, you return to the second edge and so on.
2.If you end the turn, you start new turn with last active unit (I will call it A next) flashing, then you go to one edge (usually against the direction of last turn, but it is not a rule), then you jump back to A, skip it and go to the second edge. Then you continue "normally".
3.If you click a unit that is not active, then the process is ussually interrupted only: it continues normally after giving an order to the unit. But it is not a rule.
4.If you set an order to a settler then things may stop work "normally".
[QUOTE]

Say you attack a city with a bomber, and next to that city you have a rifleman that hasn't moved yet this turn. That rifleman will move when you're done with the bomber because it's closest to where the bomber ended its turn.

[SlowThinker]

skywalker,
thank you for elucidation. I was stupid. I tested it about a half of hour and I didn't see it.
So the rule is:
1. The first activated unit is the unit that finished the last turn.
2. If a unit finishes his turn on a given square then the civ program search for the "closest" unit from that square and activate it.

The question is what means "closest"? Sometimes a diagonally adjacent square ("civ distance"=1.5) is prefered under a directly adjacent square ("civ distance"=1).
And which unit is chosen if more than one unit are "closest"?

Xin Yu,
you are not right:

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on February 09, 2001 17:46 3* Build a fortress on grassland/plains/desert/tundra 4* Build a fortress on other squares

Numbers are related to a settler.

Xin Yu, thank you to serve as an example:
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All knowledge stored at Apolyton must be sorted!
You see: even a legend claims false statements. We need the Great Library!
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited March 25, 2001).]

[Xin Yu]

Xin is not a legend anymore since he has made a lot of mistakes, especially recently. This is all because of love, I guess.

[William Keenan]

Xin Yu:

To er is human.

And there is nothing wrong with being human.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 03-25-2001 07:58 PM This is all because of love, I guess.

Discussing this thoroughly would probably be off topic .
May I say that many of us love this game, and therefore love your way of 'slow thinking' about it.

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 03-25-2001 07:53 PM So the rule is: 1. The first activated unit is the unit that finished the last turn. 2. If a unit finishes his turn on a given square then the civ program search for the "closest" unit from that square and activate it. The question is what means "closest"? Sometimes a diagonally adjacent square ("civ distance"=1.5) is prefered under a directly adjacent square ("civ distance"=1). And which unit is chosen if more than one unit are "closest"?

Results 1 and 2 correspond to my own experience (thank you skywalker).
Shall we reopen our labs to test 'closest'?
(I suggest that we ask the SGs, since I'm busy trying to get good results with Mr Delanoe ).

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Scouse Gits]

Not sure that I buy 'closest' - I suspect next in the list (reverse of last turn - some programmers never get the hang of writing link-lists properly) that is on the current screen ...

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[SlowThinker]

SG(1),
buy it, it's not expensive.

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker ...Units don't rotate, they are arranged into a line.

read skywalker's post, he explained I was wrong. I did a short test (La Fayette, I am lazy to continue) and I agree with him.