On the road to becoming an expert: Day 1

MAP VISUALIZATION

As everyone knows, customizing a map will change the way the map looks. 3 billion will make the land less random, while 5 billion will put desert right next to arctic in many cases. So we will already know how the map is going to be generated just by these settings. Everyone also knows that if you click on a dark area or on a water mass or land mass, next to the coordinates will be a number designating it as such. This is all common knowledge. But the question is, how is it useful rather than just telling you if there is a water mass or land mass there? As we all know, exploration is key in the very beginning turns of the game, no matter what setting you play. The decision of whether or not to go left or to go right, to go up or to go down, can be the difference between finding your opponent early on, or allowing him those precious extra turns to gain more ground. Up might lead to a hutless alcove forcing you to turn around and go back over the exact same terrain you came over, while choosing to go down could lead to a nice river filled with huts and on the path to your opponent. In my opinion the decision making in the very first turns of the game are what set the good players apart from the bad players.
So then, back to the basic question, how does that number tell us where to move, and when to move? Lets take a small map for demonstration. Lets say we start out on the map with land all around us. We build our first city and we now have a warrior to move, but which way? First, click on the land, usually it will be 1. If it is not 1, then your job is that much easier. 1 is the designation of the main land mass (in most cases), and 1 is also the designation of the main water mass (in 99.9% of the time). The land mass number we won't worry about because it is the same as the water mass. We want to know exactly where the main water mass is located. The reason for this is because it is impenatrable. There is no way around it and it determines whether you're on an island or a continent. Water masses designated as 2, 3, 11, etc. will always have a way through them or around them. 63 is always a lake or a really small water mass, maybe no more than 6 squares. This is key knowledge.

Ex. 1
You start the game with land all around you, but you are north of the equator. You have just 1 ocean square in your view to the left of you. The rest is land in every direction. Click on the ocean square. If it is 1, then you're going to explore to the east. Don't bother going up, and don't bother going straight down for right now. Leave it black. Those 2 areas are what I call claimed territory. They're areas where your opponent will not be and therefore there is no need to explore at this moment. If you go to the left you'll hit a solid wall of water. You may have just saved yourself 5, maybe 10 turns by going right first instead of exploring the other two areas. Go south east, and go straight east in exploring. But do not explore to the left of your city for now. Keep in mind this is only true on a small map where you'll know for sure they can't be. On a medium map you use the same principles, the difference is that you take into account the amount of space between you and the bottom or top of the map and that the main ocean mass may go for a long ways in both directions. In most cases though you'll be able to tell if there is sufficient land to harbor an opponent.
Ex2.
This time we'll talk using a medium map. Medium maps are more complicated and require knowing the other land masses. First click on your own land mass. To make things easier we'll say it's land mass 2. That means you'll actually be able to tell where the coastline is. Your start position puts you next to a water mass designated 19. First click around and determine 3 things:
1. How close is the next nearest land mass? How big is it?
2. Click around a ways out, do you see 2 a long ways out into the unexplored area? HOw far out? Can you determine the coastline of your continent? HOw far does it extend in each direction, and what is your position with respect to the equator? North or south?
3. How big is water mass 19?

Now you've gone ahead and answered these questions. There is no land mass near you, 2 extends a long long ways around the world (good news for you, you're on the main land mass), you determine that the coastline is goes a ways to the east, but even further to the west. You are situated south of the equator and water mass 19 goes a long ways to the west. Now, the questions is, north, south, east, or west? Obviously not south because that territory is claimed. You know the land to the east hits water mass 1 which means that is possibly claimed territory as well. At this point you need to answer another question: How many players are in this game? If there are alot of players, you could very well have an opponent to your east, but more likely northeast. However you are assured there are opponents to your west, but how far out is water mass 19? The next thing you need to determine is:

1. How much land is to the south of 19, and how much land is to the north of 19?
2. Go ahead and begin determining its coastline.

We'll say in this case you are very lucky. There is much more land south of 19 than there is north of 19. Now we know where to go. We're going to send the first horseman west, the second horseman is going to go north east to confirm the claimed terrirtory.

If you use these ideas on a small map, I guarantee you will claim half the map and be on your opponent with in the first 5-10 turns of the game or even sooner. If you use this on a medium map you will definitely have an edge over everyone else and be able to claim much more land than and huts.

[StrategicKing2]

Another "civ hunting" technique used on med or larger board where 1 represents the main ocean is triangulation.
Begin by clicking aroung the cont you start on to get an idea of the shape.
Next, move a unit into the largest area of the cont since it is most likely that if any enemy civ is on your cont that is where they most likely will be.
City guiding is common knowledge , going to city screen and clicking on supported unit and the computer will tell you the closest city. Now as you move farther down into this area you will reach the "mid way point" and now you can triangulate and be asured that no enemy civ is in that area.
To triangulate, You count the number of squares back to your closest city as listed on the city screen. Now count an equal number of squares in all other directions , and if you hit 1 ( the ocean) in all directions, then without uncovering many squares you have eliminated that area from being infested by other civs
By doing this in all directions you can determine very fast with just a few wariors that you are alone on your own cont or not which is extremly valuable info concerning turning on the settler factory or producing horseman to control and defend territory.
This , of course assumes the closest city is your own.
If it is another civs city, you can guide to it if it is on your own cont.
Or if it is not, by clicking around in the ocean, look , again in that mid range, for a large cont where the other civ has to be.
Then you know what cont # the other civ is on and can use that info very positively.

[Scouse Gits]

Forgive me, we must all enjoy this game as much as possible, but surely clicking on the black to investigate the shape of your continent is against the spirit of the game - if you want to start with a known map - do so - there are many to choose from, if you want a spirit of discovery, don't ruin it by 'illicit' means - all my own opinion of course ...

[rah]

Gee, on a small map, just check out your x,y coordinates. If you're near the west end head east. If you're in the east, head west. Occasionally the land (a narrow strip) will wrap around the 0 line but that is the exception. If you're north veer south. It takes less time and I don't have to click to death. AND when you're hosting, and clicking unexplored areas, it doesn't always give you the real number, sometimes it always shows a "1". Every turn you have to check to see if it's showing the true number.

On a small map, I usually just head for the middle of the map to either meet or claim the area before someone else does. Unless I start in the middle, then I will use some of the techniques previously posted to find the corner that no one started in.


On a medium/larger map, the land/water mass numbers have more value.

I'm more interested in hearing about the "DEMO" search routine.


RAH

You do what you want, I think I know a little bit more about this than you do.

[StrategicKing2]

There is nothing wrong about clicking around. For instance, if you start on a small cont with no other cont visible , what my question to you is what do you do, just wait for navigation or build the light house or risk death blindly? The game will be over before you ever get off your cont so why play? By finding where the other conts are near by, thats an equalizer that will make more games fair. Also it will seperate the skilled from the unskilled. (+ if you risk death and succeed, if some one saves and sees later your ship out in the middle of the water, assuming it went the wrong way and did not sink, you could be called a cheater do to the ending your turn while there are still ships left to move cheat)

[drake]

Gotta win at all costs

Determinig the shape of a continent before even moving at all......how dull......

This is what makes a player skilled strategicfool? Nope. Following a formula game after game only shows a lack of creativity and genuine thinking.....anyone can learn these dull formulas, but its such a bore.....why not just play civ?

I'll let strat do the battling for whether it is legal or not. As for myself, it's in the game, it's part of the game, just like looking to see what city you're near in the unit screen. Live with it. I'll post the demographics strategy tomorrow Rah, but it's nothing you haven't seen before.

[rah]

EG, what do you do when blind clicking doesn't show the true number and always shows "1"?

RAH

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by EnigmaticGod
You do what you want, I think I know a little bit more about this than you do.

Are you Eyes' less-annoying DL? This stinks of the nonsense he bragged about in the GL discussion thread. Rah sums it up well.

D'accord with the others. If I want to know the shape of the continent I'm on, I'll send out some units to explore. But then, I happen to be one of those amateurs who plays to have fun.

[DaveV]

I am really hoping this kind of stuff is fixed in Civ 3. The black part of the map is supposed to be terra incognita - you only know the parts your units have passed through. Otherwise, why not do as SG1 said - reveal the whole map from the outset. For me, a big part of the fun of the game lies in the tension of pushing into the unknown. Having to act on limited information is, I think, an integral part of the experience.

[Bird]

Come on, give the guy a break, this thread is a far cry from his usual annoying posts. If you don't want to use all or bits and pieces of the information that's posted here, don't do it. I don't do what EG has laid out here to anywhere near the degree he apparently does, but I sure as hell click on the dark areas at the beginning of my MP games to try to figure out where the oceans (and therefore the other civs) are. The problem, of course, is as rah notes -- the numbers don't always work, and in fact seem to work no more than half the time.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that it is inappropriate to comment on whether this is a “feature” that should be eliminated, but I don’t think threads like this should be belittled or discouraged in what is, after all, a strategy forum. You never know what useful nuggets of information will turn up in these things.

The numbers are never wrong. If you get a wrong number it's because you clicked wrong or you interpreted them wrong. There is always a 1 for land mass and a 1 for water mass. So on a small map you won't be able to tell the difference between water and land, but you will be able to tell if it is the main water mass or not. ANd Rah, the 0 line isn't always the water line. Which means you have a chance for error. This way there is no chance for error, it is 100% sure.

[rah]

EG, NO IT DOESN"T ALWAYS WORK.

Bird two posts above stated the same thing. I've played over 1000 MP games, I think I know what I'm talking about. Some turns it works and others it doesn't. Trust me, I check to see if it's working every early turn in an MP game to do the things you've been discussing, BUT IT DOESN"T ALWAYS WORK. I've had games where it didn't work for the first 10 turns.

Yes I agree that 0 isn't always a water line, (I even stated as much in an earlier post.) But the expection is usually a narrow band. Granted that will give you the access to the other side.
But this occurs quite less often than 0 being the water line.

I've been hoping to glean new info here, but sadly, nothing new.

Rich

Well rah I'm sorry to hear that but I have played in games with you and you certainly don't explore very well. Second of all you are doing something wrong, I have been playing this game way longer than you have and I have played many more games on ALL the settings. If it doesn't work for you you did something wrong, plain and simple. If you feel you know more than I do, then there is no point in you reading this because you have obviously advanced far beyond my comprehension. Have a nice life.

[Bird]

lol, seems I spoke too soon. Sorry guys.

rah, you rookie, quit embarrasing yourself.

What do you expect if you're going to tell me I'm wrong?

[Bird]

Well, one reaction might be: “Hmmm, rah, that’s odd, I’ve never experienced a game where the numbers didn’t work. No idea why that happens to you and Bird, but maybe it’s a configuration thing. Anyway, my strategy obviously requires that the numbers work, so if they don’t you are sol.”

I’m not sure how many games someone has to play to be competent to tell whether the numbers work during his or her games, but I’m pretty sure rah qualifies. You’ll note that although rah pointed out limitations on your strategy, he didn’t impugn your skill or the validity of your insights where the numbers are working like they are apparently supposed to work. All he said was, "hey, for some unknown reason, it doesn't always work."

[rah]

Well now.

Eyes, I've never played a game with you when you were using the Eye's moniker. Please list all the other name's you have used, and I'm sure I've never played them either. Ming has, but not me(and I'm not going to comment on his playing ability). SO what the heck are you talking about. And Since I bought MP the day it came out, there is no way you could have been playing MP longer than I. So what the heck are you talking about. And I'll bet I've played more MP games than you have, but unlike you, since I can't prove it, I'll let the other repeat the chorus.

EG, you ignorant slut.
(i apologize but I still love that line)

We've been blind clicking since the first day. IT DOESN"T ALWAY WORK. IT may in SP, but I haven't played SP in years. Bird agrees and as more see this thread they will agree too, SO WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

I thought your new persona was going to stay away from the egotistical ******* crap. Lighten up.

[Ming]

Well... add another to the list of people who has seen that it doesn't always work.
I've also played MP from the day it came out.. many, many, many games on different settings...

And sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. It's that simple. Why many of us have seen something different than you EG is a mystery... but I'm not going to call you an idiot because you disagree

Now what was that about a new and improved Eyes

I never said it was an improved Eyes, I just said I wasn't going to go out of my way to be a **** anymore. But you better expect something if you're going to tell me I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure I played in a game with you Ming and War4ever on one of your small as maps on Deity 2x1x. I am 95% sure. Either way, if you want to contest who is better we need only play a game. On second thought I don't think I'll be posting anymore strategies. It would seem that you all know more than I do and therefore I am but a rookie in the eyes of you experts. It clearly shows in the way I lose all the time and the way you win all the time. I can't compete with the numbers.

[Deity Dude]

I know that I have not played as may games as Eyes (enigmaticgod, korscyth, sean, etc. etc.) or RAH. In addition, the one I played against Eyes et al I lost and the one I played in against RAH and friends I was a definite 3rd behind RAH and war4ever. Having said that:

What exactly do you mean when you say it doesn't always work? Does the number change from turn to turn? Does it incorrectly assign multiple numbers to the same continent? I have never noticed it "not working" before but I'm not sure what that means.

Another interesting point about #'s is: If you choose a white civ you are very likely to get put on continent #1 surrounded by ocean #1, thus making it harder to predetermine your own coastline. I believe the farther down the list u go the more likely you are to not be placed on continent 1. This is a double edged sword though because the farther you go down the list the more likely you r to end up on an island or in the artic

[Deity Dude]

Eyes - um excuse me- EnigmaticGod, just curious, how many days is your course?

[rah]

God, grow a skin.

First off even you said pretty sure on playing, I'm pretty sure you haven't, So a draw.

I'm stating that sometimes it doesn't work. And I'm sure more will say the same thing. I don't know why it always works for you.
But you can't convince me it always works, so let it lie.

I never said I was better than you. I would never claim that, even if I thought it to be true. And I'm not here for a pissing contest. Here to talk stratagy, All I did was mention that it doesn't always work, and you started off on me, and like a jerk, I responded. ENOUGH. And I love your line that you said it was an improved eyes.

Yes, You're supposed to be one of the best, and I'll debate strats with you anytime in hopes of learning something, But NEVER assume that I'm some fresh newbie that hasn't played the game.

Come around on a Friday or Saturday and give us a try, I'd love to point out when it doesn't work to see if it is for you. I'm actually really interested in how it always works for you, because it's a heck of an advantage the first few turns if it is working, but it doesn't always for us. God, I'm repeating myself almost as much as ANNC does.

And I do want to continue to see your other DAYS, I've never believed the demo one, but you've seemed to written it a little clearer this time, and I seem to understand where you're going with it. (Because of the uncertainty of it, I'm not convinced of the value yet, Especially if the opponent gets a second city down quick, which is quite frequent in our Deity games) BUT THAT IS WHAT THIS Forum is all about, and to be honest, there hasn't been a lot of new stratagy discussion here in a few years. It's usually some newbie asking for the vet's help.

OK,
I'm done venting, and If I need to apologize, I will.

BUT I SWEAR IT DOESN"T ALWAYS WORK FOR ME.


RAH
Let's conintue the discussion please.


And Deity Dude, when I say it doesn't work I mean, one turn it will show an unexplored area, code "63" and you know it's working. But on another turn, you click on the same square and it's a "1" and for every other undiscovered square. We've tried to figure out what the pattern is for working an not working, but we've never succeeded. EG is right, it's a hell of an advantage and you can bet that I check to see if it's working at the start of every game. I may not be quite as anal as EG about checking everything, but if it's working I will check a few out before my first move.

"And Deity Dude, when I say it doesn't work I mean, one turn it will show an unexplored area, code "63" and you know it's working. But on another turn, you click on the same square and it's a "1" and for every other undiscovered square. We've tried to figure out what the pattern is for working an not working, but we've never succeeded. EG is right, it's a hell of an advantage and you can bet that I check to see if it's working at the start of every game. I may not be quite as anal as EG about checking everything, but if it's working I will check a few out before my first move."

63 denotes a lake square. You have to be precise in your clicking and take note of the coordinates. All you have to do is be off by a sliver and you'll actually be clicking on the next square. It's not working wrong, 1 just means it's land and 63 just means it's a lake. What's happening is you're not clicking on water, you're clicking on the main land mass. 1 works for land and for water. If you find a 63, it means there is land there and that you have clicked on a lake. It's one of the ways you determine the difference between the two main masses.

[drake]

Do you guys know how silly you sound arguing about whether or not clicking on black squares yields a correct reading or not?

Who gives a fuk?

Do you know how silly you sound when you're taking the time to tell us how silly we sound? If you don't find this important, why post?

[rah]

EG agreed, no offense drake.
But we haven't had a strat discussion to this level detail in a long time, so let us enjoy what we can.

Ok, last night, after reading your posts, I wanted to verify that I wasn't crazy. I set up some tests and was unable to not make the clicking show true.
But since I was unable to test with other people, I'm not quite willing to concede that I'm an idiot yet. I swear, I've seen turns where it didn't. I was aware of the land and water "1" so I don't think I got confused by that. (but since we play on small maps with large land masses, almost every square is a "1") I am usually very careful that I don't miss by 1 square, so I don't think that has confused me. But I will be real careful in future MP games and verify. It is possible that I've just been careless, but I not willing to admit it yet

Are there any other special numbers that you know of?

RAH

No, that's it. The number can never be wrong. Think about it. The numbers themselves are nothing more than part of the coordinate system. Does the coordinate system ever not work? There is no programming in the game that changes the numbers. The only way it can fail is to human error.

[drake]

No offense taken from you rah, but the opposite of engima (as in not mysterious in any manner) fellow can give up this "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say it act".

I've seen literally dozens of threads where the so-called "expert" has said nothing but "this strategy sucks" or "whoever thought of this strategy is a moron" or other comments of the same worth. So I'm just dishing a little sh1t back that he gave in the past.

Different name, same schmuck.....