Anyone disappointed in the Chinese special unit?

[El hidalgo]

For those who know about Chinese history, was there really a "rider" unit? Anyone else besides me wish they had gone with the Boxer (pic: http://teachpol.tcnj.edu/amer_pol_hi...mbnail257.html) or some other unit instead? Even though the Boxer could hardly have been said to usher in a golden age....

[Gramphos]

You are in the wrong Forum. This is Civ3-General, you should have posted this in Civ3-Civilizations. I bet Mark will move this.

I think that Firaxis knows what they are doing, I trust them.

[Admiral PJ]

Riders a good unit i just don't like the name, maybe it will grow on me.. maybe they'll change the name.
If the mongols aren't in their horsepower can be shown through the chinese(who were influenced by mongols and are basically the same) in their rider unit, (super knight) , the eastern horse cavalry were powerful and conquered a large empire (Mongol Hordes) and the chinese had this too.
The boxer rebellion was at a time when china was overrun by the european powers so i don't see how this would relate it to a golden age, boxers sound far less interesting than Super Knights (knights have been my favourite early unit for a long time)
PJ

[The Mad Viking]

Riders suck. The name is stupid, and the unit is stupid. The Chinese had no special military unit. Now for some reason they get the world's best knights?

Persians had better knights. Turks had better knights. Maybe they could have gone with "Horse Archers", again not a typically Chinese unit, but at least a historically significant one.

Chinese already had great civ attributes, now a killer unit.
Faster and with enough defense to withstand a counterattack.

Black Riders = Nazgul. Three movies coming soon...

[The Mad Viking]

Chinese special unit could have been an inexpensive worker unit that excelled at building huge fortifications...

[Provost Harrison]

Who knows and who cares? It is a game, for Christs sake, lets make it fun and stop nitpicking little things. We will not know how it works until we see the whole game working in unison...you can't just an oilpainting from a square milimetre of canvas now, can you? It's whinge, whinge, whinge with some of you, and for no good reason either

[RobC]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Chinese special unit could have been an inexpensive worker unit...

...which would virtually guarantee that China could never have a golden age (when was the last time you saw a settler/worker win a battle?)

[Rhysie]

Originally posted by RobC


...which would virtually guarantee that China could never have a golden age (when was the last time you saw a settler/worker win a battle?)

In my last civ2 game one of my settlers building a fort in a mountain fended off three aggressive barbarian horsemen... So it's not impossible.

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Rhysie
In my last civ2 game one of my settlers building a fort in a mountain fended off three aggressive barbarian horsemen... So it's not impossible.

But dont workers in Civ 3 have 0 defence??

[Inverse Icarus]

well, the boxers werent really an elite group of soldiers, they were chinese citizens who wanted to expel "the white man", and used martial arts to beat the sh*t out of them.

stupid white men said they were boxing.

[El hidalgo]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Who knows and who cares? It is a game, for Christs sake, lets make it fun and stop nitpicking little things. We will not know how it works until we see the whole game working in unison...you can't just an oilpainting from a square milimetre of canvas now, can you? It's whinge, whinge, whinge with some of you, and for no good reason either

OK, how would you feel if instead of archers we had the clown unit, who hurls coconut cream pies at the enemy? Is it unthinkable that a phony unit could mar your enjoyment of the game even a little? (And no, the rider, if it is indeed a phony unit as I suspect, won't put me off that much, not as much as a clown).

If the rider is a phony unit, that is; it doesn't ring true to me, but then I admit to my ignorance of Chinese military history.

Not whinging, just discussing. If anyone knows more about the subject, I'd be glad to hear. But it sounds to me, and forgive me if it seems rude to say so, that you are just whining about whining. If you really don't care, why bother to reply to this thread at all?

[Provost Harrison]

Ooooh, get you

[yin26]

I will give it my best shot in the Civs section...

[EDIT: The thread is here.]

[Urban Ranger]

Not the Boxer

They were just a bunch of rebels with no real discipline and organisation. They thought they had supernatural powers that in fact did not exist.

[Lung]

Originally posted by El hidalgo


OK, how would you feel if instead of archers we had the clown unit, who hurls coconut cream pies at the enemy?

So, who's going to make the "Clown Civ" scenario, huh? You know, King Bozo of the Circus Clowns. The special unit could be the "pie-chucker", which, instead of having bonuses in attack, defence, or movement, instead lowers opposing units' defence ratings! Think of the endless possibilities!!!

Sounds;
----------
Whoopie-cushions
nose-horns
water squirts

Graphics
-----------
movement with big floppy feet
attack with cream pies
etc

Buildings
-----------
pie factory (in lieu factory)
circus (in lieu colliseum)

Just think of the diplomacy! You know - you go to speak to King Bozo, and he arrives to stupid clown music. When you actually speak to him, he squirts you with water from a flower on his chest, then shakes you hand in apology, only to find he's got a buzzer in his hand

The possiblities are endless!!!

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Lung




So, who's going to make the "Clown Civ" scenario, huh? You know, King Bozo of the Circus Clowns. The special unit could be the "pie-chucker", which, instead of having bonuses in attack, defence, or movement, instead lowers opposing units' defence ratings! Think of the endless possibilities!!!

Sounds;
----------
Whoopie-cushions
nose-horns
water squirts

Graphics
-----------
movement with big floppy feet
attack with cream pies
etc

Buildings
-----------
pie factory (in lieu factory)
circus (in lieu colliseum)

Just think of the diplomacy! You know - you go to speak to King Bozo, and he arrives to stupid clown music. When you actually speak to him, he squirts you with water from a flower on his chest, then shakes you hand in apology, only to find he's got a buzzer in his hand

The possiblities are endless!!!

[Edward]

Since the Mongols are gone, a mounted special unit seems ok for the Chinese. As an ignorant pop-culture-raised American, I would have liked the "rider" to have a cool Asian-sounding name (however inaccurate), be wielding a bow, and have multicolored samurai-esque armor.

I'd love to have a super worker be my special unit, even if I don't get a Golden Age. My Civ2 settlers and engineers can never work quickly enough.

[Provost Harrison]

Lung:

[isaac brock]

Since the mongols are out of the game, and the team is working on only 16 civilizations, how about they try harder to make an accurate yet fun game, instead of some "samurai" unit that for some reason is associated with the chinese civ. Leave the fugging units to firaxis, and don't assume something is historically inaccurate simply because of your ignorance of other cultures.

And provost, that's a nice signature. What a good idea...

[YefeiPi]

Hell ya, I'm disappointed. There are better suited units out there for China than riders. However, China is the earliest nation to excel at horse riding, so I mean even if Firaxis made a mistake, it's not too much of one.

hell, besides, maybe I will enjoy kicking other civ's asses with my riders!

[YefeiPi]

If the mongols aren't in their horsepower can be shown through the chinese(who were influenced by mongols and are basically the same) in their rider unit, (super knight) , the eastern horse cavalry were powerful and conquered a large empire (Mongol Hordes) and the chinese had this too.

Mongols are the same as Chinese? Ok...
China was one of the, if not THE earliest nation to excel at horseback riding, I'm sure way before mongols even existed.

[PGM]

I like the unit, although a special worker could be a great idea now that peaceful GAs are possible.
What I don't like is the name. Rider. I wish Firaxis would change this. They could name it whatever they wanted, as long as it sounded chinese.

[ancient]

hmm chinese had horses, and they did ride them.. and got pretty good at it too..

i dont know if they were actually faster or stronger than other horse riding peoples but it is accurate other than that, often they used swords or bow and arrows..

[PGM]

One more thing, the Rider (4/4/3), despite the terrible name, is extremely powerful and surprisingly fast, which fits well the Chinese civ which is now Militaristic. From the movie we've all just seen, the Modern Armor also has a movement factor of 3, so this shows how important this knight can be in its proper period of time.
As someone pointed out, it can step out of a city where it was fortified, attack, and enter again. And let's not forget that the movement factor of 3 will be 9 (!) on road, so imagine the possibilities, as a couple of these babies patrol your borders.

[Dida]

Chinese mounted troops and other type of troops are powerful. The reason they were not famous is because China is more famous for something else, not for its military might. But remember, Han Empire existed about the same time as Roman Empire, and was bigger in size and more culturely advanced. Also notice the Huns, who after being defeated by the Chinese migrate across Central Aisan and conquer much of the the eastern Europe. China being able to defeat such powerful mounted enemy means it's good on horse back too.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by El hidalgo
For those who know about Chinese history, was there really a "rider" unit? Anyone else besides me wish they had gone with the Boxer (pic: http://teachpol.tcnj.edu/amer_pol_hi...mbnail257.html) or some other unit instead? Even though the Boxer could hardly have been said to usher in a golden age....

Well I expected party members waving Mao red books. That was a force to be reckoned with.

[Chow Yun Fat]

I will be posting some educated guess, not well-researched materials. So please take it with a BIG grain of salt.
And please make correction to my pinyin. I learnt my history in Chinese.

In the Chinese language, China means 'Central Empire'. The central part of China at pre-modern time is the 'pocket' of the Yellow River, (If I remember correctly, it's a flooding plain.) The land is good for farming but not very good for massive horse-breeding. Horses do not travel with ease in that area without roads.

The followings were depicted in quite a number of Chinese operas and novels, (but not in history books. Chinese official history did not usually record details of a battle). There were a lot of extraneous information added as favors. But I am quite certain that I had not quoted lores. (Nothing like Hercules, Merlin ,Siegfried, or people who can leap to the roof and fly [Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon] )

1. Horses in Central part of China were usually used by the rich (as carriage to faraway places, for short travel, they use sedans), by the officials (as couriers), and by the generals (riding a horse is a kind of privledge). A small group of elites would also ride the horses to the battle but the effect was usually rather small.
Some may argue that in ancient China, war wagons were used often. But the number of infantry support far exceeded war wagons. In the "warring state" period, it were claimed that a certain general had buried 400,000 captives. At that time, a big state would have 1000 wagons (There should be some quote about this in the Sun Tzu or Wu Tzu. The learned please confirm)

2. Infantry with swords, scimitars, and polearm-like weapon were usually seen. (I had not recalled seeing Chinese battling with lance in any novels and operas.)

3. Bows were used but it had usually been used as cover fire (I'm not very sure of this). There were two famous (yet unofficial) description of use of bows and x-bows. Both in the 3 Kingdom period and with ZhugeLiang. (Borrowing arrows using straw boats [there're more than 100,000 arrows involved]) (The making of Chukonu [x-bow that fired multiple arrows]) There was a Chinese saying that 'Shoot the horse before shoot a man, Capture the leader before capture all the bandits'.

4. Pikes, not cavalry, were used as defensive weapons against barbarians cavalry charges (South Sung period, Vs the Liu empire and Kam empire)

5. Battle vs the 'barbarians' in the western deserts were also made mainly by infantry. (not even camels, try to see the movie Wulan made by Disney. )

All these long-winded paragraphs were to illustrate that
"Chinese was not famous in using horses in combat"

If I were to devise some kind of special units for Chinese, I will choose 'Yan-Hoi' (literally 'Man-Sea', translation probably being 'hordes of human'). Huge number of HP, so-so attack and defense, slow movement, requires 1 pop point to create.