another bloody scenario!!!

[Grothgar]

The title means oh my god another scenario from me not its a scenario and it will be bloody although it could be.

Anyway on to my point. At the moment i have a scenario called Sword Point in progress but i really have lost the enthusiasm for that project for the moment. I may regain it sometime in the future but for the moment im moving onto pasture new.
I have decided to concentrate on the pacific theatre in WW2. Not many scenarios are based here and i was looking through all the units i have and i frankly have all the units i need. At the moment i have these units for the various sides. It will be a tri polar scenario with you being the Japs, Britain or america so most of the units are based around them. Right here they are. Any suggestions about what was involved because at the moment im not to good on the pacific theatre but this will change tommorow when i procure a book about the conflict from my school.

Anyway.

The Sides

Japan
USA
British Empire
Nationalist China
Red China
Dutch EAst Indies
Russia

The Units

General Units:
Engineers, Light Tank, Fighter, Bomber, Trade Freight, AA Gun, Strongpoint, 152mm Howitzer, Landing Craft, LST-2

Japanese Units:
Imperial Marines, SNLF, Reserves, A6M2 Zero, Ki-67, IJN Yamato, Mogami Class, Kagero Class, Nagara Class,CJ Class, Ki-43, G4M Betty, Zuikaku Class,

USA Units:
Infantry, Combat Engineers, Marines, Airborne, Sherman, M3 Halftrack, M3 Grant/Lee, LVT-2, M7 Priest, USS Iowa, USS South Dakota, Brooklyn Class, New Orleans Class, Gato Class, Atom Bomb, P-38 Lightning, P-47d Thinderbolt, P-51D Mustang, TBF-1, B-17 Bomber, B-24 Mitchell, Essex Class,

Britain Units:
Infantry, Commandos, ANZAC Troops, Churchill, Cromwell, Matilda Mk2, Churchill Crocodile, Spitfire, Lancaster, HMS Indomitable, Renown Class, AA Cruiser,

The Rest:

Nationalists, Red Chinese, Red Army, Dutch Troops,

And i think thats it. Looking at it now i think i have given the US too many units. any ideas.

Thanx

[Case]

First, have a look at Harlan Thompsons Pacific Scenario - its playable as the Japanese, and IMHO is the only good scenario to have been made on the Pacific Theatre (Its got a great map to 'borrow' as well )

Secondly, I'd recomend that you include Australia and New Zealand as part of America - after the fall of Singapore Australia, in the words of PM John Curtin, "looked to America" for its defence needs, and Australians made up the vast majority of MacArthur's forces untill late 1943. Also, NZ was basically a province of the US Navy during the Pacific War.

Also, I'd recomend that you cut back on the American tanks and armoured units - the Pacific War was mainly fought by infantry. Include the M4, but drop the rest. Give the US infantry higher stats to reflect thier armoured support though.

[Grothgar]

Thanx case and i already nicked the map lol. Its the one im using because its the only good map out there. surprising. As i ssaid i dont know much about it but i will soon and i didnt think they used much armoured units but what to replace them with? I could have a japanese tank i suppose and that means i could include a lot more naval units. woo brainwave
Anyway australia has to be british im afraid because otherwise the british arnt one of the 3 to be played anymore. But ill certainly have that event in just for you case

[Case]

Originally posted by Grothgar
I didnt think they used much armoured units but what to replace them with? I could have a japanese tank i suppose and that means i could include a lot more naval units.

Yeah, include Japanese tanks for use in China. You could also include oil tankers for the japanese, and have an event that takes a lot of money off the Japanese each time one gets sunk (the loss of oil tankers to American subs crippled the Japanese armed forces and war economy)

Originally posted by Grothgar
Anyway australia has to be british im afraid because otherwise the british arnt one of the 3 to be played anymore. But ill certainly have that event in just for you case

Grothgar, I can't emphasize enough that Australia shouldn't be British.
Untill 1945 the British were minor players in the Pacific Theatre. After the fall of Singapore British forces were limited to fairly minor operations in India and Burma. As long as the war in Europe continued Britain lacked the resources to make any real effort in the Pacific.
All Australia contributed to the India-Burma theatre was a few pilots, and 4 destroyers.

In 1945, Britain sent out the best parts or the Royal Navy to serve as part of the US Pacific Fleet, but all this amounted to was to provide the Americans with another Carrier task force - something they had plenty of allready. Australia provided major logistical support for the British 'Pacific Fleet', but this was done reluctantly, and with an eye to providing facilites for the post war Australian Navy.

In comparison Australia commited 6 divsions, 3000 aircraft and the bulk on the Royal Australian Navy to the 'American' drive through the South Pacific. Also, Australia was the US's major logisitcal base in the region and over a million American servicemen were based in Australia.

Personally, I'd either merge Britain with the US (as the Allies), or drop plans to make them playable.

[Grothgar]

I would merge them but then youd have silly things like american units turning up in burma etc and im british so i want to make them playable. you never know you can maybe alter history although i want to make it quite hard to do so with anyone. so no expelling japan from the islands until near to when they did historically. I want to make it as historical but also as playable as i can. So we are having the british and australia is part of the empire then. still is kinda, part of the commonwealth. Any unit suggestions would be good. ill put some australian ships in as i have some free space. Diod any King George V battleships find their way into the pacific?

[Case]

At the risk of this thread becomeing the Grothgar and Case show...

Originally posted by Grothgar
I want to make it as historical but also as playable as i can. So we are having the british and australia is part of the empire then. still is kinda, part of the commonwealth. Any unit suggestions would be good. ill put some australian ships in as i have some free space. Diod any King George V battleships find their way into the pacific?

Its your scenario and your call, But Imperial defence was a bad joke in WW2, and the commonwealth didn't fight as a unit in the Pacific. Britain could barely defend herself, let alone the rest of the empire. I did a lttle bit of checking, and prior in 1945 the only British unit in Australia was a single squadron of Spitfires based at Darwin.

Had the Invasion of Japan occured it was planned to form a 'Commonwealth corps' with divsions from Britain, Canada and Australia. This would have been the first time that commonwealth forces had fought together in the Pacific since the fall of Singapore in early 1942.
Also, Britain didn't send any Lancesters out the the Pacific [though some Lincolns (an improved Lancester) were prepared for operations against Japan in 1945]. The Only Lancesters sent out prior to this were a couple that the Australian Airforce used for publicity stunts to raise money for war bonds (see atached picture ) I'd recomend that you use Mosquitos or Beaufighters instead.
There were some KGV's attached to the British Pacific Fleet.

[Grothgar]

Ok then. No Lancasters!!! Grr. i liked them. Oh well got unit graphics for both the mosquito and the beufighter. Im going to sort the units out before anything else. also ive been doing the placing of cities. (shamefully ripped off Harlan's scen lol )
And if it becomes the Grothgar and Case show who cares lol. Although i am hoping ANZAC will come in with his infinate store of knowledge. Boy i kiss ass bad

[Chris 62]

Pacific in WW II, eh, Groth?

I can help with this, A LOT.

First, Japan didn't have marines (Sorry, they didn't, they used sailors trained in landing ops, and army troops, but NEVER had a dedicated Marine corp. A lot of people may think differently, but they are DEAD WRONG). So drop the Marines, the SNLF is the same thing.

Second, Japan used armor in the phillippines, and in the defense of the island sin the central Pacific (Tarawa), in the Marianna's (Saipan, Tinian and Guam), even on Iwo Jima, so they had tanks, not just in China. The major type, used through out WWII was the type 97 Chi-Ha, armed with a low velocity 57mm main battery. By all means include it.

Third, your comment Groth, that no US units in Burma is WAAAAY off.
Look up a group called Merril's Marauders to start with.
Also, the Chinese forces in India (2-4 divisions) were under American control, and American equiped.

Next, the Australian Question.
Case is right, the Brits shouldn't control Australia.
Now comes the radical part: The US Should!
Case pointed out that Aussie units acted in concert with the US, what you could do is create special Aussie infantry, very powerful units, that arrive ONLY via events, and cannot be built, and only in Australia.
The Aussies could only field so many units, so this is realistic, and as Case pointed out, Australia was vertually a US base in WW II.
This would end up being VERY historical for civ, but once created, those units could go anywhere.

For extra Japanese units, besides the Chi-Ha tank. The Japs were working on some fine A/C, some of which entered service, like the Ki-84 Frank, and they bult a four-engined bomber proto-type (It's name escapes me right now). You could add the deadly Kate torpedo bomber (stats similar to the TBF)

For the US, you could lose the half-track and the M3 Lee series (they wern't used much in the pacific). The other units are good.

I'm a little tired right now Groth. Contact me on Yahoo tommorow night and we can talk more about it.

[Grothgar]

First of all your tired!!! lol. im the one up at 2:45 in the morning. Stamina my good man. Anyway i implimented the Type 97 tank and i have one more unit slot. I renamed the imperial marines are you sure about the SNLF because i have Steel panthers WAW and they are in there. Ok so ill bow to pressure australia will be american. Any other places that could be british? ive got singapore and india and thats about it. hmm maybe it will have to do. Grrr i hate you guys sometimes I was going to have a T-34/76 for russia but im getting rid of that which is why i have a free unit slot. I have A carrier class for each of the 3 main protagonists as well as a battleship class (2 for britain.) The US and Japan have 4 types of surface ships and one sub each. there are 2 transport types but i could cut that to 1 which would free up another slot. I could get rid of the enginners which would free up another.

So i have 1 definate and 3 maybe.

Japan has 4 airplane types the US has 6. hmm did many B-17 see action in pacific because if not ill keep the B-24 and get rid of the B-17. help me guys

[Grothgar]

First of all your tired!!! lol. im the one up at 2:45 in the morning. Stamina my good man. Anyway i implimented the Type 97 tank and i have one more unit slot. I renamed the imperial marines are you sure about the SNLF because i have Steel panthers WAW and they are in there. Ok so ill bow to pressure australia will be american. Any other places that could be british? ive got singapore and india and thats about it. hmm maybe it will have to do. Grrr i hate you guys sometimes I was going to have a T-34/76 for russia but im getting rid of that which is why i have a free unit slot. I have A carrier class for each of the 3 main protagonists as well as a battleship class (2 for britain.) The US and Japan have 4 types of surface ships and one sub each. there are 2 transport types but i could cut that to 1 which would free up another slot. I could get rid of the enginners which would free up another.

So i have 1 definate and 3 maybe.

Japan has 4 airplane types the US has 6. hmm did many B-17 see action in pacific because if not ill keep the B-24 and get rid of the B-17. help me guys

Oh and chris ill take you up on that offer. be ready for loads of questions my good man.

Thanx a lot everyone even when you do **** up my plans

[Boco]

Only 62 units is a tough limitation for the entire theater from 41-45. If my first impression was correct, your list has already reached the total number of units limitation. Yet you missed a lot of naval fighters and bombers, B29's, older aircraft, older battleships, and non-Essex class carriers. The sheer number of ship classes are going to force you to treat most in a generic manner.

Now for an odd idea. How about focusing on a single major campaign or a single year? Perhaps, 1945+. Besides US and Japan, this could include two Chinese civs, the Soviets, the Commonwealth (is that farfetched at this point, Case?). It would also have a lot of potential for "what if's". In particular, you could create a tense race between the Soviets and Mao overrunning Korea and China before the Western allies force a Japanese surrender. The units could be the latest and greatest of WWII: a variety of land/sea/air kamikazes, jets, advanced heavy and light tanks. Still the 62 unit limitation would be tough here, too.

[Grothgar]

Well im going to have the IJN Yamato and the USS Iowa and the HMS Renown (Although for a really short length) and the King George V classes but i think your right the rest will have to be generic. also im having a carrier class for each of the 3 nations
But your right i need to have more miscellaneous ship types

[Hobbes]

I can help too...
go Canada!!
have a big Canadian invasion of Japanese China!!! just for the hell of it!

[Case]

Grothgar, after the first few months of the war, B-17's were replaced by B-24's (which with thier longer range were better suited to the Pacific)

BTW, having a look at your proposed list of units, I'd recomend that you drop all the unique British tanks and just have them use the Sherman. The India-Burma theatre was to rugged for tanks to operate, and Britain didn't send any tanks to Malaya. Replace them with Indian infantry and Gurkas

Boco, having the commonwealth as a seperate civ in 1945 is marginally better then it would be in 1942-44, but not by much. While Australia and Britain did work together, it was definetly under the command of the Americans.

[Grothgar]

Well ive gotten rid of most of the tanks and a lot of the ships because im just going to have types of them. like cruiser destroyer etc. British have a matilda II at the start but then ill give them the tech to build shermans and there you go problem solved. The special ships im having are:

IJN Yamato
USS Iowa
King George V Class
Zuikaku Class
HMS Indomitable
USS Lexington (Lady Lex)
USS Essex Class

I have 12 slots left to use as a result of my downgrading 13 if i take out the B-17 but ill leave it in for a while. Most of these will be taken up by sea units though.

Destroyer, Cruiser, DD, AA Cruiser, Battleships


So thats 7 slots left. So any ideas. I might use the indian and gurka units which leaves me with 5. so 5 definate 7 maybe, Thanx guys

[Grothgar]

Right then an update for the unit minded of all of you out there.

General Units:

Enginneer, Light Tank, 152mm Howitzer, AA Gun, Strongpoint, Bomber, Fighter, LCA, LST-2, Freight, Destroyer, Light Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, AA Cruiser, Battleship.

US Units:

G.I's, Combat Engineers, Marines, Airborne, M4A2 Sherman, P-38 Lightning, P-47D Thunderbolt, P-51D Mustang, TBF-1, USS Iowa, USS Lexington, Essex Class Carriers, Gato Class Subs, B-17 , B-24 Mitchell, Atom Bomb,

British Units:

Infantry, ANZAC Troops, Commandos, Matilda II, Spitfire, DH Mosquito, King George V Class, HMS Indomitable, Gato Class Sub, Beaufighter, Indian Infantry (Complete with great imperial india flag )

Japanese Units:

Japanese Army, SNLF, Reserves, Type 97, A6M2 Zero, Ki-67, IJN Yamato, Zuikaku Class, G4M Betty, Ki-43 Oscar.

Everyone Else:

Nationalists, Red Chinese, Red Army, Dutch Troops,

I have 6 units slots left and it looks like a need some more units for the Japanese, Any Ideas???

[Case]

Originally posted by Grothgar
I have 6 units slots left and it looks like a need some more units for the Japanese, Any Ideas???

Well, no Pacific scenario would be complete without Kamakazis!
You may want to have a few different types of Kamakazis - eg fighters and bombers,* and maybe that rocket powered thing.

Give the British carriers the x2 defence vs missile flag to simulate the fact that Kamakazi's did little damage to them thanks to their armoured decks.

As for other units, Anzac's De Ruyter is very nice and historically accurate
You may also want to have an 'atol defence' unit for the Japanese and place it on the various islands.

BTW, did you recieve that stuff I sent you?

*The USS Franklin was hit by a Betty Bomber - I've read that this packed a greater punch then a modern anti-shipping missile!

[Grothgar]

How could i forget the kamikazes!!!! im an idiot (Note any of you who agree with that staement will be killed. Im just self lamenting.) Well there in now. Thanx case and yes i did get the scenario you sent me. Almost buggered my mailbox but hey lol. I was thinking about the de reuter but i would rather concentrate on the big 3. also the dutch went under rather quickly so it would be a waste of a unit. its a fine unit too. well i wonder if chris will have any ideas. Thanx case by the way

[Boco]

I suspect Chris is right about no IJ Marines. I've read MUCH more about SNLF (special naval landing force?) in battles than about imperial marines. Still Case has them in his Australian scenario, and he usually does his research well. Chris, what about airborne units?

B17's were used in the Pacific, but B24's were used more. They had somewhat similar stats. Do you have any F4F Wildcats, F6F Hellcats, or F4U Corsairs? The first two were workhorses for the USN, far more important than P-47's and even P-51's. You might need to lump P-40's, P-39's, Buffaloes, and Hurricanes into a generic slot. They were mostly Zero-bait.

For terrain graphics, you might want to play with the River16(?) icon, the one with rivers out of 4 edges. By 'hollowing' it out with water (leaving enough to see the underlying terrain) you could make something resembling atolls by using one square islands with rivers. River16 is rarely seen elsewhere.

A possible trick to reflect the installation of effective radar in US ships is to change the AEGIS flag on selected classes. This could be done with a Rules.Txt switch midgame sometime in '43 (I think). This way you could get around the 62 unit limit a little.

Hong Kong was British until its capture sometime in the first 6 months of the war. Burma was primarily a Commonwealth theater, although Merrill's Marauders (a battalion-sized unit) accomplished some amazing feats on a shoestring before they were exhausted and disbanded. I believe the Chinese divisions in Burma were hamstrung by red tape through most of the war.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Boco
I suspect Chris is right about no IJ Marines. I've read MUCH more about SNLF (special naval landing force?) in battles than about imperial marines. Still Case has them in his Australian scenario, and he usually does his research well. Chris, what about airborne units?

US used some in Phillippenes in 1945, less then a brigade, Japs landed a regiment on corrigidor in april of 42. Otherwise, no airborne.

B17's were used in the Pacific, but B24's were used more. They had somewhat similar stats. Do you have any F4F Wildcats, F6F Hellcats, or F4U Corsairs? The first two were workhorses for the USN, far more important than P-47's and even P-51's. You might need to lump P-40's, P-39's, Buffaloes, and Hurricanes into a generic slot. They were mostly Zero-bait.

Groth and I are discussing it now.

A possible trick to reflect the installation of effective radar in US ships is to change the AEGIS flag on selected classes. This could be done with a Rules.Txt switch midgame sometime in '43 (I think). This way you could get around the 62 unit limit a little.

I like this idea a lot.

Hong Kong was British until its capture sometime in the first 6 months of the war. Burma was primarily a Commonwealth theater, although Merrill's Marauders (a battalion-sized unit) accomplished some amazing feats on a shoestring before they were exhausted and disbanded. I believe the Chinese divisions in Burma were hamstrung by red tape through most of the war.

Hong Kong fell on 25 december, 1941.
Yes, the China divisions were ham strung, but did go on the offensive in 44.

[Grothgar]

Right ive got rid of the P-47 because chris said they hardly were used then and ive replaced it with the F6F hellcat. got U class british subs the B-29 and the K-84 Fiat so i have 2 unit slots spare. any ideas.

[Jimmywax]

I didn't know if you had a Hellcat or not? Here is one that I made the other weekend.

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
Still Case has them in his Australian scenario, and he usually does his research well.

I'm afraid that I screwed up here. I've seen a few references to IJN Marines, but I think the authors of these books got them mixed up with SNLF
I've since renamed this unit 'Guards' to simulate the ellite Imperial Guards Division, which proved to be very effective in Malaya and Singapore.

Originally posted by Boco
You might need to lump P-40's, P-39's, Buffaloes, and Hurricanes into a generic slot. They were mostly Zero-bait.

Late model P-40's were a match for Zero's. They weren't as long ranged or manuverable, but they had heavier armour, a better armement and a very useful speed advantage in dives.

I'd agree with your assesment of the other aircraft though, and lump Australian Wirraways and Boomerangs in with the Zero bait catergory

BTW Chris, The Japanese also mounted airborne attacks on the Sumartran Oil Fields, and West Timor.
The US had a full airborne divsion in the Pacific by 1945, but as you point out, it never made a full scale drop. The USMC also had a few airborne battalians, and the Australian army rasied a parachute battalian as well.

[The ANZAC]

Grothgar: Glad that you put in the B-29. Maybe you should give it to the Americans when they take the Marshalls/Marianas? Also they operated out of China and the Flying Tigers were in China, just to give you an idea of American involvement in the CBI Theatre. Also, why don't you cut out the generic fighter and bomber? The major powers have their own planes. Also you could get rid of the LCA since they weren't made for ocean travel. Also look at the graphics thread and various Nemo scenarios for unit graphics BTW thanks for promoting my infinite store of knowledge

[Grothgar]

Well i dont really want to get rid of the LCA because i would like to have 2 transports. The LCA which is faster than the LST but carries less and vice versa. Also im going to have the generic fighter and bomber because in 1941 the US didnt have much in the way of specific fighters and bombers and also its a good unit for the flying tigers. And Jimmywax thanx for that unit. there i was thinking i would never find a unit in that style and then i come here and find it. your a miracle worker Jimmy could you per chance do me a B-29? the one i have is fine but it doesnt really fit in with the graphics i have and you do them in the style i like. I know chris might disagree but its my scenario. (well it is for the moment. more info soon) And does anyone have a graphic of the Ki-84 "Frank"?? Or could someone draw me one because i have no idea what it looked like and im only including it so i can get chris off my back lol Also im using the fighter graphic to represent all the "zero bait" as you put it. So if i get rid of the LCA (note the if) ill have 3 untis left.

Bring it on

[Paul Hanson]

I must say Gary, when I started reading this thread, I was hopeful. But my heart sank when I saw that you decided not to use the De Ruyter class because the Dutch fell quickly.

This is going to be another of those WW2 scenarios where you just play out history, isn`t it? I want to marching into Tokyo and claiming Japan for the Netherlands!

[Grothgar]

Paul if you want to do that then youll have to cheat because the dutch have 4 units or so

[Grothgar]

Although if i get no more units to be used which i like that is ill put the de reuter class in and the T-34/76 for russia and dutch

[Grothgar]

Right this has probably come up so many times before but which technologies are needed to change to the industrial era and which are needed to turn to the modern era? i mean all of them because i know there are more than a few Thanx guys because i need them to make sure all the cities are not all the time

[Grothgar]

all the same even. big typo there