"On Second Thought..." Civs: A Truly Unique X-Pack?

[yin26]

I have seen and am watching the x-pack thread with interest. But I would like to put a spin on the discussion: "On Second Thought..." Civs. These are civs that you probably never would have considered interesting enough for Civ 3 (or ever heard of, for that matter) but once you learned more about them made you say: "On second thought, that WOULD be kind of cool."

My reasoning: I would absolutely LOVE to fire up the x-pack and be behind the wheel of a civ and a location on a map that is totally foreign to me. I want to have to study the small advantages I have (if any) and really take on the big boys. Think of it this way: When you play as the Chinese, you are SUPPOSED to kick some arse. But playing as Ireland and having to work and work and work just to stay alive could, in the end, leave you feeling a lot more accomplished come the end of the game!

I realize this would be leaving out some 'big names' for the x-pack, but it would add SO much to the overall Civ experience in my opinion.

Some Ground Rules (if I can set any, of course):

1) Please let's not detract from the civs discussed, though asking for good research is assumed. Let's really try to find the coolest thing about each civ and ask: Could that be made fun to play in Civ 3?

2) Again, forget the "Bigger is Better" argument for a moment and think about civs that would present a cool challenge in Civ 3 and bring to light some amazing history that we probably would all have overlooked or never been taught otherwise.

Some suggested civs:

** Korea (you have my thread for that, so I'll leave that alone for now)
** Ireland
** Scottland
** Malta

[yin26]

Again, the way I'd tweak the Koreans for the game is something like this:

• Reduced ability to expand but increased defensive ability.
• Increased research ability until modern age.
• Added diplomatic bonuses reflecting its non-aggressive stance.
• Near immunity to opposing civ cultural influence (borders CANNOT creep into Korean territory) but conversely much slower influence over OTHER civs' borders.
• Special Unit: Turtle Boat (most effective from 15-17th centuries): Nearly impossible to sink but has slow and rather poor offense.
• Special Tech: Printing Press: From time of discovery (usually early 13th century), adds for 20 turns a Golden Age of Learning (science bonuses) and major cultural influence over surrounding areas...one of Korea's best chances to expand its borders. Yes, Korea's Golden Age should be triggered by this PEACEFUL discovery.
• Special Trade Item: Celadon Pottery, which can only be produced in small quantities but is highly sought after by ALL civs.
• Major bonuses to worker productivity in the Modern Age but also increased chance for worker strikes unless full Democracy is implemented.

[yin26]

I have no idea for Malta and probably a ton of other civs, so I look forward to being educated.

[aaglo]

How about Denmark or Sweden? They both were once quite powerful and influential nations (at least in northern Europe). I just can't figure out anything special about them . Oh, Denmark has the oldest flag still in use...

Not much of help, I doubt...

[mactbone]

Ireland
Obviously Relegious (the guy who converted them all has a really interesting story)

Very autonomous, dislike centralized government (hmmm, how could that work, more partisans when invaders come?)

They have retained their culture even through many years of foreign rule/partial rule.

Case could be made that they're Militaristic.

UU could be a monk/missionary.

I can't think of any scientific advancements.

Follow this link for "concise" history of Ireland.

Desmond's Concise History

[Ribannah]

Just a random list of some "minor" civilizations to get you started:
Afghans, Australians, Batavians, Cherokees, Comanches, Frysians, Genoese, Goths, Helvetians, Hospitallers, Huns, Jutes, Normans, Nubians, Papuas, Parthians, Saracenes, Saxons, Tatars, Templars, Venetians ....to be continued

[Jeje2]

My idea is Åland, Ahvenanmaa in Finnish

And before you ask Åland is a county of Finland)

Before I give my spechs some clarification to why

The Åland Islands form an autonomous, demilitarized and unilingually Swedish province of Finland. They consist of more than 6,500 islands and skerries. Today other countries with minirities / minority areas come to Finland/Åland to study this special relationship - it's considered as an model example for rest of the world. (And it's an accomplishment of the League of Nations)

So an nation with own suverinity, but no military and highly accepted by others.

So the Åland is something like:

• Cann't declare war - hard to declare war on (Atrocity)
• Near immunity to opposing civ cultural influence.
• Special Unit: Police (Only battle unit they have)
• Special Tech: Hard one - need help here. (Could be something with commersial sailing around the world) Discovering the tech begins Golden Age
• Diplomatic bonuses

How do you stay alive and prosped totally independently?
(Quite challenging)

[Gangerolf]

The Sami (Lapps)

They live scattered across northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia, an area which they call Sápmi. Traditonally many of them are reindeer nomads. They number about 50000-75000. The word "tundra" comes from the Sami language (there are several Sami languages though).

Leader: ??
Capitol: Karasjohka (Karasjok), location of the Sami parliament.
UU: ?? reindeer-something. (moves extra fast on tundra and glaciers)
Abilities: Religious (shaman culture) and Commercial (fur-trading)

[DarkCloud]

Wales, The Welsh!

Inventors of the Cardigan WELSH Corgi

Obviously:

Noble, Friendly, Charming
(Perfectionistic, ?)

[Stefu]

Finland Finland Finland! Finland!

Capital: Helsinki

Ruler: Either C. G. Mannerheim (Led Whites in Civil War and Finns against Russia in Winter- and Continuation Wars) or Urho Kekkonen (was president for 25 years, by carefully leading Finland managed to keep us independent next to Russia)

Special Unit: Either Hakkapelits (primo Finnish cavalry under King of Sweden, fought in many parts of Europe when Swedes still amounted to something) or Ski Troops (to remind us of Miracle of Winter War)

Civ Abilities: Industrious (That Lutheran work ethic...) and Scientific (hey, we've managed to make ourselves a high-tech country).

[Gangerolf]

Stefu, wasn't Åbo capital before Helsinki?
-------------------------------------------------------

Here's another one:
the Boers (Afrikaaners)
http://www.boer.co.za/

Capital: Pretoria, or maybe Kaapstad (Cape Town)
Leader: Paul Kruger
Unit: Boer Cavalry
Abilities: Expansionist (the Great Trek)or Militaristic and Religious or Industrious.

THE MODERN BOER
"Take a community of Dutchmen of the type of those who
defended themselves for fifty years against all the power
of Spain at a time when Spain was the greatest power in the world. Intermix with them a strain of those infelxible French Huguenots, who gave up home and fortune and left their country forever at the time of rhe revocation of the edict of Nantes.
The product must obviously be one of the most rugged, verile unconqeurable races ever seen upon earth.
Take this formidable people and train them for seven generations
in constant warfare under which no weakling could survive, place
them so that they aquire exceptional skill with weapons and
horsemanship, give them a country which is eminently suited to tactics of the huntsman, the marksman and the rider.
Then finally put a finer temper upon their military qaulities by a dour fatalistic Old Testament religion and an ardent and consuming patriotism.
Combine all these qaulities and all these impulses in one individual and you have the modern BOER."

Arthur Conan Doyle. 1902 The Great Boer War

[yin26]

So far, that one DOES sound awfully cool! Anymore info you can did up for us? BTW, a number of these listed have me very interested. I hope people who list them keep coming back to add more info for us!

[Buck Birdseed]

Nice idea! To my mind, there are only three or four of this type of "unimportant but totally unique" civs already in the game, and of those only the Zulus have really captured my interest when reading history books.

My pick: The Swahili/Kilwans

- Unique in that it consists of blended elements from three distinct cultures, combining Shirzi/Persian, Bantu/African and Arab elements.

- Ruled by a Black nobility, with the Persians and Arabs as a middle class. The language (Kiswahili) is largely a Bantu one with certain Persian and Arab elements.

- Extremely trade-oriented- worked as a link between the Near East (and occasionally Far East) and inland africa.

- Very focussed on the central city state in each kingdom. The main one (strategically significant Kilwa) vassalised other major ones like Lamu (today in Kenya) and Sofala in Mozambique. However, lesser independent trade centres were located as far north as Mogadishu, which was in fact the second most dominant one.

- The Kilwan kingdom extended from today's Kenya-Tanzania border via Zanzibar to Mafia Island, but was almost entirely coastal. It only had coastal cities and trade posts, almost no in-land contact.

- Have you heard the legend of King Solomon's Mines (Also depicted in The World of Jules Verne scenario in Fantastic Worlds)? The "garden city" of Kilwa was the origin of this myth, because of its rumoured fabulous wealth.

Leader: Sultan Souleiman Ibn Mohammed el Malik el Adil

Capital: Kilwa Kiswani

Other major cities: Mogadishu, Sofala, Mombasa, Lamu, Zanzibar, Kilwa Masoko, Pato...

Unique Units: Dhow. A Galley but with more movement and cheaper to build.

Attributes: Commercial/Expansionist.

[Stefu]

Stefu, wasn't Åbo capital before Helsinki?

TURKU was indeed capital during Swedish rule, but Helsinki's been capital of Finland throughout Russian rule, when our national identity began to form, and independence.

[Saint Marcus]

MALTA

Special Unit: Hospitalier Knight, Crossbow, Revolting Peasant

Special structure: Coastal Fortress

Special trade commodity: Maltese Silk, Maltese Silver

Capital: Mdina or Valetta

Civ abilities: Commercial and Religious

Special ability: extra partisans when a city is forcibly taken, increased chance of a revolt when a city is forcibly taken. People are never assimilated in another culture.

History: early temples and statues found, dating back to 3000 BC. Later colonised by the Phoenicians who made it an important trade centre. Then colonised by the Greeks and Carthagians after that. Conquered by the Romans in the Punic Wars. Mdina (which was called differently by the Romans) made capital. The island became an important trading centre once again. (first Golden Age) The apostle Paul shipwrecked on the island and performed several miracles there. The people of Malta converted to Christianity. It become the property of the Byzantine Empire when the Roman Empire was split in two. It was later conquered by the Arabs, who formally named the capital Mdina. The Arabs improved it's defenses, build a mosque, and modernised the island as a whole. They were greatly impressed by the Maltese people, who were labeled as "strong, honest and hardworking"(second Golden Age). Then the Normans conquered it from the Arabs. The legend has it that the Normans gave a cornor of the their flag to the Maltese as a token of appreciation and friendship. The Tuscani (I believe) got hold of the island after them, and the island was given to the Hospitaliers (Knights of St.John) by the Pope. The big mosque was converted in a cathedral and the Hospitaliers further modernised the island, and build schools and hospitals in various cities. Then in the 1560s the Ottomans launched a massive attack to wipe the Knights out once and for all. It seemed an unfair fight for sure. The Ottomans sent most of their fleet and best units, plus they had cannons and muskets, while the Maltese relied on Crossbows. This battle was known as the Great Siege of Malta. In the end, against all odds, the Maltese people and the Knights of St.John defeated the might of the Ottomans. After this major battle the Hospitaliers improved the defenses of Malta significantly, making it the best defended stronghold in the Mediterenean Sea. Valetta, where a massive coastal fortress was build, became the island's capital. (third Golden Age). However, the Knights lost their way and become decadent under their wealth. When the French under Napoleon invaded they didn't have to fire a single shot. But eventhough the Knights surrendered, the people of Malta did not. They kept resisting the French invaders and in the end removed them from every corner of the island, with the sole exception of Valetta, where the French troops where pretty much trapped. When the English came to the rescue they didn't had to do much to capture the remaining french garizons. In the following decades, the English made Malta a modern nation. Then World War 2 came. Malta resisted both Italian and German attacks on the island with incredible strenght of will, and ensured an allied victory in north Africa. After the war, Eisenhower awarded the Maltese people with the Iron Cross of bravery, for their heroic stand in WW2 against all odds. In the 1960s the English granted them independence.

Characteristics of the Maltese, summary: Pascifists. They rarely fight and usually welcome invading countries. However, they will never change their culture or way of life (not a single maltese citizen converted to the islam under arab rule, which astounded the arabs). The only time they will fight is if their culture is at stake. If a foreign power wants to change the Maltese way of life, the people will revolt with incredible strenght and will. (Ottomans, French, Germans/Italians). No matter, how much you hurt them, they will never give in. Not even if under the threath of extinction. The Maltese people will do anything to preserve their culture, and that explains the seeming paradox between the pascifists and the revolting citizens. If a foreign power comes along who is willing to leave the Maltese culture in tact (Phoenicians, Greek, Carthagians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Normans, Tuscani, Hospitaliers, English) then the people welcome the invaders with open arms. But if a foreign power moves in who wants to change the Maltese culture (Ottomans, Germans, Italians), the people will resist to the last man, woman and child.


Anything else you'd like to know? Feel free to ask.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
Stefu, wasn't Åbo capital before Helsinki?

Originally posted by Stefu
TURKU was indeed capital during Swedish rule, but Helsinki's been capital of Finland throughout Russian rule, when our national identity began to form, and independence.

Just to make it crystal clear to everyone: I didn't say anything wrong. It's just that Stefu for some reason prefers to call the city "Turku". The most proper name is, of course, Åbo.

And BTW: I agree that Helsingfors is the best pick for finnish capital

[Gangerolf]

ARMENIANS

Well I don't know much about them, but as far as I know they have a quite unique culture, their own church, alphabet, etc. They have survived centuries of persecution by their (islamic) neighbours. Please help me on this one.

Leader: Vartan Mamigonian (?) link--> http://vartan.live.com.au/
Capital: Yerevan
UU: ??
Abilities: Religious & ??


Yup

[Inverse Icarus]

Polish

Capital: Warsaw
Ruler: Mieczyslaw I
CSU: Light Cannon or Infantry
Ability: Scientific & Commercial

why i chose cannon:

from http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/Army.html

The Poles set great store by artillery and were years in advance of their enemies until the eighteenth century, using light cannon with accurate bombardment and mobility being the crucial factors. They also used rocketry to great effect (Siemienowicz published a treatise on multi-stage rocketry in 1650!).

--

The infantry was lightly dressed without helmets or armour and armed with musket, short sword and hatchet. Only one man in eight carried a pike. In the 1550's a Polish regiment of 200 men could fire 150 shots in five minutes (contemporary Spanish brigades of 10,000 men could only deliver 750 in the same time)! Polish infantry possessed ten times greater firepower on a man-to-man basis than standard European infantries.

i didn't choose cavalry because i think theres too many already

[Brent]

Hittites, Mitannites, Trojans, Elamites, Ephraimites, Ammonites, Arameans, Moabites, Philistines, Phoenicians, Cimmerians, Scythians, Thracians, Basques, Galileans, Armenians, Azerbaijani, Georgians, Missourians, Mormons, Cheyenne, Maidu, Mohicans, Powhatan, Arawak, Aymara, Carib, Toltec, Tupi, Guarani, Swiss, Portugese, Lapps, Finnish, Estonians, Yakuts, Kashmir, Hmong, Aborigines, Tongans, Samoans, Hawaiians, Maori, Athapascans, Aleuts, Caledonii, Brigantes, Trinovantes, Dal Riata, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Goths, Vatican City, Malagasy, Berbers, Boers, Bushmen, Inuit, Hopewell, Texans, Confederates, Cubans

[aaglo]

Wellwellwell...
At first I have to apologise my lack of knowledge on every f***ing tiny detail on the history of human race. I'm a bit afraid of posting anything in these forums, cause there is always somebody, who gets all excited about the fact, that "actually the Seoul is only the fifth largest city in the world, you freaking freak!" (like it makes the difference). So here goes, if you are absolutely freaked out about what is coming, feel free to beat the crap out of me. It won't hurt, won't it?

I have an idea for a special civ for possible xpansion, but at first I have to ask a question about terrain types. What are there? If tundra, conifer forests, fells (check your dictionary, I'm not going to explain), or some other terrain type for cold regions is included, then OK! Enter, the...
Finns

Special unit: Snow soldier (during winter war against Soviet Union 30.11.1939-13.3.1940). What's so special about it? In temperate areas the unit is no different compared to a regular soldier (a conscript?). But when the unit is in cold region... movement increases 100%, defence (not in city) increases 75% and offense increases 50% (the percentages surely need tweaking).
Movement +100%: never heard of skis? Ok, you might think that anybody can buy skis and train a few elite units to perform flipflops with skis on and simultaneously empty a clip into an enemy group. But during winter war every single finnish soldier could use the skis, and I mean EVERYBODY (well, maybe not ten persons or so), but you get the point. Thus the added movement.
Defence +75% (not in city square, because it would be almost impossible to conquer, I think): Reflects the ability to use snow as a camouflage, stealth and protection. Yes, even from bullets. IIRC about 2 meters of dense snow will stop a 7,62 ammo.
Offense +50%: Again the skis. And it also reflects the the defenders inability to carry out a proper defence due to possible inconvinience caused by improper equipment against cold and snow. It also reflects the element of surprise. I've heard stories about the russian soldiers being scared of the finnish "silent and quick skiing soldiers who come in the dead of the night to our camps, killing everybody around the campfire. It is impossible to fire back, because nobody knows where the bullets are coming from." There is a saying (I don't know the origin of it, propably the winter war) which says:"one finn equals ten russians."

Golden age trigger: The best that I can come up with is victory with the special unit, in the special conditions (fight in cold region). IRL that sure didn't trigger any golden age - on the contrary, another war came . But I can't figure any other trigger (Nokia-mobiles are no trigger, they are the explosion).

Commercial ability: Finland makes and always has made a living out of forests. Between 1500-1800 Finland region was one of the major producers of tar. Tar was used to protect wooden ships from moisture, fungus and rottening effects of water. Finnish tar was delivered (IIRC) to the navies of England, Holland, Sweden and maybe Denmark and France. Nowadays the main exports are paper, machinery and ships. The tourism is becoming more and more important commercial branch (especially in Lapland). And there are also those Nokia-mobiles :P .

Religious ability: the Swedes made us protestants, and that is what we are good at . We have a saying (origin unknown, you may have it too) "fear of the Lord is the origin of wisdom". (what a clumsy translation!)
Why commercial and religious? In my opinion no other comply. Well maybe scientific, but I'm too modest. And as being a science engineer, I'd rather not choose scientific ability. It's pretty boring. But when I really start to think of it, Finland is one of the leading nations in the studies of cold technology (boy, those finns can really freeze their food )

Other specials: reduced growth (there aren't very much of us), high tax rates (which leads to free schools, colleges, universities, health care and constant promises of "lower taxes" ) and some political balancing skills (during the cold war Finland was trying to handle properly the good relations between east and west). I know there are some others, which don't come across my mind.

I really don't know what kind of modifications these would require, but there are professionals to do things like that. Or are there...

[Inverse Icarus]

OH OH OH. THE PALENSTIANS.

CSU: F*CKING COWARDLY HIJACKERS THAT GO INTO A CITY THAT ACCEPTS ALL PEOPLE INDISCRIMINATELY, LIVE THERE FOR SEVERAL YEARS AS A CITIZEN AND ON COMMAND HIJACK A PLANE, AND ONLY KILL CIVILLIANS NOT MILITARY UNITS.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by UberKruX
OH OH OH. THE PALENSTIANS.

CSU: F*CKING COWARDLY HIJACKERS THAT GO INTO A CITY THAT ACCEPTS ALL PEOPLE INDISCRIMINATELY, LIVE THERE FOR SEVERAL YEARS AS A CITIZEN AND ON COMMAND HIJACK A PLANE, AND ONLY KILL CIVILLIANS NOT MILITARY UNITS.

Great! You have already investigated and discover proper trial, out of a bunch of stupid citizen that burn a flag every other day, so come on: go to FBI a give them your great work, but please, don't let us stop you posting here at this forum.

Leave us alone!

"Hang him up and then let him have a regular process", where not the words I can tolerate, also if my relatives would been died in the attack.

I would be sure, double checked, to have discovered the real killers, not to kill someone just to feel me better.

[Skanky Burns]

I know we are all angry, but no point killing just *anyone*... make sure we get it right, and KILL those that DESVERVE it. Those that organised it and supported it. Anyone who supports the terrorists. The terrorists families - see how *they* like it

But not just any country we happen to think did it at the moment.

[Inverse Icarus]

according to a news source (FOX NEWS) the PLL claimed responsibility, and then retracted their statement.

"yea, we hit your building."

"oh it fell? that wasn't us then."

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Mongols
Incas
Aboriginals
Vikings

I chose these civs because it adds to the 'regional rivals' of certain areas of the globe in which civ3 has no civs.

Mongols vs. Chinese vs. Japanese vs. Russians vs. Indians maybe vs. Greeks/Persians

Greeks vs. Persians vs. Egyptians vs. Babylonians

French vs. Germans vs. England vs. Russia vs. Vikings

Americans vs. Iroquoi vs. Aztec vs. Incas maybe vs. Vikings

Zulus vs. Egyptians

Indians vs. Aboriginals

These regional conflicts just make things more interesting in those areas. At the beginning of the game, there are more choices for alliances etc. in the neighborhood where you start. Of course, on a random world, that wouldn't matter, but anyway... Besides, South America and Australia don't have any.

The CSA and SU of the regional civs must be balanced.

[fred]

Originally posted by UberKruX
according to a news source (FOX NEWS) the PLL claimed responsibility, and then retracted their statement.

"yea, we hit your building."

"oh it fell? that wasn't us then."

Your source is FOX news?

Oh I read the tabloids today they said it was the pengiuns...

Lets all go kill every single pengiun.

YOU ARE PARANOID, stupid, ignorant, racist and more dangerous then a rampid shark in a kiddie pool. You let one statement move your hatred against a whole innocent population. You are now the same terrorist, no different. Think then act, do not let; do not kill innocent people just because they look and sound and share the religion of the people that crashed the planes. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE. Maybe after you kill everyone possibly some how related, someone will get to retaliate upon you? Its only far since you got to retaliate.... STFU lifes do not pay for lifes; two wrongs do not make a right. Learn not to hate and you might not be hated....

[jsw363]

Originally posted by fred
YOU ARE PARANOID, stupid, ignorant, racist and more dangerous then a rampid shark in a kiddie pool. You let one statement move your hatred against a whole innocent population. You are now the same terrorist, no different. Think then act, do not let; do not kill innocent people just because they look and sound and share the religion of the people that crashed the planes. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE.

I agree completely.

[jdd2007]

i agree too for that matter ... but anyway ....

i think the civ that was pointed out (the one with 6,500 islands) was too pacifist, insignificant and wimpy to even be discussed

the boers are a good idea but the problem is that they were just a very long footnote (oxymoron?) in british history. the two things they evr did were the great trek and the boer war. they lasted for a very short time, I forget the exact number of years but it wasnt many. if they were a civ, then thats cool, but someone else must think of the cities...

[Dimorier Maximus]

The Texans

Leader: Sam Houston or Stephen F. Austin
Capital: Austin
Unique Unit: Texas Ranger (an improved calvary)

History: Texas won its independence from Mexico in 1836 and was an independent nation from then until 1845 when it became a state in the U.S. While it was independent, it was populated heavily by former Mexican, German, and U.S. citizens.

Other city names:
Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, El Paso, Fort Worth, Arlington, Lubbock, Amarillo, Corpus Christi, Brownsville, Fredericksburg, San Angelo, Albuquerque, Santa Fe (Yes those were in Texas before they ceded land to the U.S. when they joined the Union)

Texas would be a commercial and industrious civilization: industrious because they worked hard to gain their independence - "Remember the Alamo" and commercial because of the cattle trade which was very important in the time of independent Texas.

Extra tidbit:
The Texas Rangers were nearly always outnumbered by the Apaches, Comanches, and other Indian tribes they fought. But they always seemed to win anyways. Maybe it was because of their six-shooters (revolvers), or maybe God was just blessing them. Either way, the six-shooters didn't hurt their chances for winning.

[Inverse Icarus]

the terrorists didn't care WHO they we're bombing.

many of those people could care less about Isreal / Islamic Tensions.

but the terrorists made no judgements. they killed them all, including my dad.

and now we have to go and fight the terrorists, not a nation, a group of fundamentalists being protected by a government.

and the second we step in everyone is going to say "there's the US, bullying people again." just because we want to punish those who did this.

my friend is currently on a trip to Greece, and he said that the a lot of the people there said "it was a tragedy, but America deserved it".

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?

i never overgeneralized, i never said kill all muslims, and i never used an ethnic slur.

i called them f*cking cowardly idiots who hit civilians, parents, brothers.

and whats wrong with FOX news? they are a reliable nation-wide news channel.