Multiple engineers working as a team!

I've been experimenting with the idea of getting multiple engineers/settlers to work as a team. I got inspired by this Xin Yu's excellent idea (quoted below).

First a little background information (in case you didn't know): normally you can put max two settlers/engineers do the same work on a single square. The third assigned to the same job doesn't help anymore. However you can put multiple pairs of engineers on a same square doing different things; ie a couple building (rail)road, another couple working on irrigation/farmland, the third cleaning pollution etc.

But what if you want those engineers do the same job as a team? You don't want to wait 15 turns to transform a mountain to hills, right? That's what it takes by using a couple of engineers. Or you have OCC game going and have bribed a nice lot of engineers and want to start changing those rivered grassland tiles into hills..

Then it's the time when Xin's advice kicks in:

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 05-18-2000 07:28 PM1 turn transformation of terrian: engineer #1 starts transforming the land, then engineer #2. Before engineer #3 begins, click on the square then click on engineer #1 so the "O" on its shield disappears. Now #3 can start transforming. Similarly, dismiss #2 from the job before #4 start working, and so on. When you have too many engineers on the same square, it is not possible to activate, say the 10th, unit. You can first move an engineer to a city and assign it the home city (the city must supports less than 8 units), then go to work. When you try to dismiss him from the job, open the city window and call him "back to home city", that will do the trick. The sequence is very important. If you dismiss #2 instead of #1 it won't work.

This works just fine. However, I tried to find a more 'user-friendly' approach to the problem. If you insist to have everything done in a single turn I'm afraid this 'homing/calling home' is the only alternative. But it's so easy to miss the proper order of the engineers and thus blowing up the whole effort.

There is another way. You can handle max 9 engineers without using rehoming city trick so I suggest you use any number of engineers between 1-9 on a given tile. Do exactly as Xin has suggested. Move #1 engineer to a tile and give the order. You can give any order you want (o,i,r,e...) Do the same with #2 engineer Move #3 engineer to the tile, then click the top engineer in the list to remove the order and give the order to the #3. Repeat with the #4. Note that the engineer who's order you have to remove is always the highest one with that order in his shield.

After doing this to the last engineer, leave them there (the last two in the engineer list should have their order written in their shield). When next turn comes, move all engineers away from the tile leaving just the two with their orders. Then start moving them back one by one and again the engineer who's order must be removed is the highest on the list. Repeat this as many turns as necessary until the job gets done! The reason why I suggest you moving your engineers out and in is simply because it's easier to keep track of the proper order of removing/giving orders.

One more trick: you can 'charge' your engineers before committing them to do a hard, time-consuming job. You see, the job done by engineer is accumulated to the engineer himself, not to the terrain. Just make them do something (like 'o') and immediately click on them to remove that order. After that they have 'job count' of two. You can go further and repeat this as many times you want. Let's say you have 'charged' you engineers to the job count of five. If you have say 2 of them you can put them making a 2x5=10 turn job in a single turn, for example transforming a plain to a grassland.

You can even mix charged and non-charged engineers if you like using Xin's method. No job done will ever be wasted.

Don't forget Ribannah's clue, it's very useful in OCC games!

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 02-10-2001 07:38 AM Farmland is 5 turns for Settlers, and therefore 2½ for Engineers. If you still have your original NON-Settlers plus two Engineers, you can be very efficient by having the Settlers aid first one Engineers unit, then the other.

Just do this with your settler and two engineers using Xin's method and you get one-turn farmland!

Read also the thread The Lone Engineer at Work (started by Gastrifidis, stolen by SlowThinker). There is a lot of useful information, for example the turn counts an engineer needs to do the various jobs.

[La Fayette]

Marko Polo
IMO this thread is worth an Embassy
Well done.

[East Street Trader]

Marko, reading your interesting post may have cleared up one point that has been puzzling me recently. When pre-working a settler/engineer I have been trying to figure out whether it costs any time to cancel instructions. But from your post and one by Rah which pointed out that if you cancel a settler/engineer's orders in time you get to move him in that turn I conclude that it does not cost anything. If you cancel after the settler/engineer has done his work for that turn it simply remains stored within him, if you cancel before his turn to work has come then you can either move him or give him new orders which will set him back working during that turn.

Have I got that right, now, do you think?

For completeness I'll have to try using up one of an engineer's move points, then give him some instructions and see whether he stores up half his work during that turn. But that seems rather elaborate and I'm guessing that it's either move or work, never a mixture of the two.

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 03-26-2001 11:37 AM Marko, reading your interesting post may have cleared up one point that has been puzzling me recently. When pre-working a settler/engineer I have been trying to figure out whether it costs any time to cancel instructions. But from your post and one by Rah which pointed out that if you cancel a settler/engineer's orders in time you get to move him in that turn I conclude that it does not cost anything. If you cancel after the settler/engineer has done his work for that turn it simply remains stored within him, if you cancel before his turn to work has come then you can either move him or give him new orders which will set him back working during that turn. Have I got that right, now, do you think?

Yeah, this is exactly right!

quote: For completeness I'll have to try using up one of an engineer's move points, then give him some instructions and see whether he stores up half his work during that turn. But that seems rather elaborate and I'm guessing that it's either move or work, never a mixture of the two.

Even if there are 1/3 movement points left the settler/engineer will do a full work day for that turn. One more thing that's nice to know: lets assume your settler/engineer has less than one movements points left and you want him to go to rough terrain working [edit] or to any square you can't reach during that turn[/edit]. If you try to move him there, the remaining movement points are simply cleared and you can move him there only next turn. Now you can prework the unit (sort of converting the remaining movement points to full turns work), by putting him to do something (m/i/o) and immediately clearing that order. Then next turn you can move him and have that one turn work 'stored' in him.


[This message has been edited by Marko Polo (edited March 26, 2001).]

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Just a quetsion : Is "work" points of an engineer stay in memory after save the game and restart it ?

[Scouse Gits]

Yes - I hope so. Otherwise it is not a saved game!
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SG(2)

quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior on 03-28-2001 11:39 AM Just a quetsion : Is "work" points of an engineer stay in memory after save the game and restart it ?

I tested it and yes, accumulated work of engineers are stored in the save file, also of those preworked engineers/settlers.

[East Street Trader]

Great stuff this, Marko!

I realised after I posted that an engineer can do work and move because, of course, we are all familiar with a road appearing straight away when he uses up one movement square and is then told to start roadbuilding. But I had not got my thinking into any sort of decent order and your explanation has clarified things real well.

The fact that you get 100% work in exchange for only a fraction of a movement point may mean your idea about pre-working has quite an extensive application - even going beyond the case you describe.

Highly practical stuff this. Good land management is obviously one of the crucial parts of the game if you are any sort of perfectionist.

Always love it when engineers appear in my civ.

By the way, I sometimes realise I have moved units in the wrong order and could have progressed better if I'd given the engineers their orders first. I may try systematising the way I go about giving my move orders better - as I think was suggested (for slightly different reasons) in a recent thread.

Also I am reminded of a point I picked up from the SGs. On those happy occasions when you get a settler as a result of bribing a city, he may well be pre-worked. Twice I've been able to get an important fortress in place to stem a counter attack by keeping that in mind.

[Edward]

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 03-29-2001 08:01 AM By the way, I sometimes realise I have moved units in the wrong order and could have progressed better if I'd given the engineers their orders first. I may try systematising the way I go about giving my move orders better - as I think was suggested (for slightly different reasons) in a recent thread.

A (somewhat tedious) way to do this is to "skip turn" units that are about to enter a square that a settler/engineer is roading/railroading. The settler/engineer will get to do his thing (perhaps completing the road) before all the "skip turn" units are up for processing again. This way your patient unit gets to take advantage of any road/railroad built that turn.

[Gastrifitis]

quote: Originally posted by Marko Polo on 03-22-2001 09:18 AM You can handle max 9 engineers without using rehoming city trick so I suggest you use any number of engineers between 1-9 on a given tile... After doing this to the last engineer, leave them there (the last two in the engineer list should have their order written in their shield)...

I found this whole idea fascinating. Normally, we say the charge is kept in the engineer/settler, not the land. But what happened here? Did the Engineers keep their charge? All of them?

So I did an experiment. I did the 9 Engineer combo move as described above, on a mountain square with a road. The very next turn, I woke the last two Engineers in the proper order. I moved the last Engineer to a plains square and told it to Transform. Instant grassland! This happened even though two Engineers had been left working over the turn, and they had only started to charge the previous turn (along with the other 7). 9 charges = finished transforming plains, though over the new turn I might have picked up two extra charges. The other Engineers didn't have a charge. So this is really a method for Engineers to pass their charge between one another, although I'm not sure how we would use it. Maybe to charge up one Engineer, then march him off to a hill or glacier and do his business alone.

[Gastrifitis]

Corollary: Any time two Engineers (/Settlers) go to work at the same task, the first passes its charge(s) on to the second.

Try this: Set two Engineers to irrigate the same square. The job will not be finished. You can wake them now, or wait until early next turn. On the next turn, move the second Engineer to a different square and tell it to irrigate there. The job will be done immediately. This Engineer holds both the charges from last turn, plus its abilities for this turn. The other Engineer, the first one, will not even be able to instantly build a fortress. It has no charge. As soon as the second Engineer helped out with irrigation, it passed its charge along.

The multiple engineers trick is simply this corollary taken to the extreme. It explains what happens when you wake the Engineers in the wrong order. If you wake the Engineer with all the charges, you can't access them any more this turn. But if you know which Engineer had them, you can use them next turn.

[Gastrifitis]

quote: Originally posted by Marko Polo on 04-03-2001 12:25 PM Gastrifitis, thanks for testing further this idea and finding the rule which explains how this engineer/settler(=workers) team-thing really works!

Hey, I just hope that I'm coming up with some new thoughts instead of rehashing work done before.

On the topic of your original post, I modify the 9-group rule slightly. I find myself gathering "ten-packs" of Engineers. Ten is the multiplier for transforming, and you don't need to see the last Engineer on the pop-up list to tell him to join in the work. So now most transformation projects are done "instantly", hills and glacier finish next turn, and mountains the turn after that. My supergroup of Engineers does transforming at the rate of the movement penalty; a very realistic project group to use.

I usually have to use trailblazer Engineers along with these groups. Trailblazers work ahead to build roads or airbases so the group can go do their thing. I could use the charge concept to prep an Engineer at a central location and then send him off, but I'm going to need roads and those squares anyway, and this way I keep the team together.

quote: Originally posted by Gastrifitis on 04-03-2001 02:12 AM Corollary: Any time two Engineers (/Settlers) go to work at the same task, the first passes its charge(s) on to the second... The multiple engineers trick is simply this corollary taken to the extreme. It explains what happens when you wake the Engineers in the wrong order. If you wake the Engineer with all the charges, you can't access them any more this turn. But if you know which Engineer had them, you can use them next turn.

Gastrifitis, thanks for testing further this idea and finding the rule which explains how this engineer/settler(=workers) team-thing really works! It's like relay in athletics.

Btw, the manual states that you can use multiple workers on the same tile but IIRC there was no mention about the limit of two workers. That would be quite arbitrary limit, IMO. So, what I think is that the designers had intended limitless teamwork and it's a bug that this only works with two workers without the micromanaging.

In one of my first games I had huge amounts of engineers and wanted badly to change one mountain to a hill. I moved almost all my engineers there and expected a quick transformation. To my immense suprise it took ages (read 15 turns) see that happen. I was very frustrated and confused. I took me relatively long time to realize the truth about this.

Nowadays I tend to have my land irrigated/railroaded etc. in one turn using multiple workers. It's flexible (if you don't mind the micromanaging) to have your workers freed up next turn as you might want them e.g. clean a pollution. In addition, you can benefit the improved terrain earlier as well. This is especially useful in OCC-game where you want to maximise the output of each turn.

quote: Originally posted by Gastrifitis on 04-03-2001 10:25 PM Hey, I just hope that I'm coming up with some new thoughts instead of rehashing work done before. On the topic of your original post, I modify the 9-group rule slightly. I find myself gathering "ten-packs" of Engineers. Ten is the multiplier for transforming, and you don't need to see the last Engineer on the pop-up list to tell him to join in the work. So now most transformation projects are done "instantly", hills and glacier finish next turn, and mountains the turn after that..{

This "ten-pack of engineers" is a nice discovery. Good find!

Btw, are you moving those engs away or back to keep in track the proper order?

[Scouse Gits]

A definite breakthrough - thread now flagged in the GL

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Gastrifitis]

quote: Originally posted by Marko Polo on 04-04-2001 04:48 AM Btw, are you moving those engs away or back to keep in track the proper order?

Since you can't see all of them in the pop-up list, moving them out is a must. (Maybe. See below.) Sometimes, they end up stepping on the trail-blazers, which is confusing. Keep an eye on the right-hand list, which at least indicates the full number of units present.

When using a ten-pack to transform hills, glaciers, and mountains, you don't even have to do the hot-potato charge passing trick until the final turn. Just start and then wake each Engineer in the first turn(s). They can add up their accumulated charges on the final turn just as easily. Only make sure you know which is the final turn!
[This message has been edited by Gastrifitis (edited April 04, 2001).]