Giving techs to the AI, info needed

lord of the mark · April 2, 2001, 13:27

There is lots of discussion about giving away techs to the AI to speed your own research. I hear this especially in discussion of OCC.

I dont play OCC, but often in my perfectionist games i have a tech lead over the AI. Im thinking this strat would help with tech advancement in my games as well.

What is the "tech gap" that impacts my rate of advance? me versus all the AI's, the next best one, the worst one, etc? Would it help if i gave techs to the least advanced AI but not the others? how about the most peaceful AI? Are there any techs that the AI's tend not to share? Which are the lamest techs, that you like to give away?

TIA

LOTM

Scouse Gits · April 3, 2001, 05:04

I saw something recently - sorry can't recall which thread, but it was either Strat or General - where someone - sorry again - used the terms AI average and 5 tech gap -- assuming I have remembered correctly and that the poster was not inventing things it would suggest that bringing the weak AIs up to scratch is the better ploy ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Rufus T. Firefly · April 3, 2001, 06:56

The discussion SG speaks of is this one, and specifically the longish comment by La Fayette. The general suggestion seems to be that the formula for determining beakers needed for the next tech is affected by proximity of the other civs to you; the farther ahead you are, the more likely the chance of being "penalized" by needing extra beakers for your next discovery.

I am curious about the effect of giving away techs, too. Does giving one away essentially "reset your clock," so that your beaker count moves "back" one tech? And is giving it away unsolicited the same as giving it away on demand? And why does that second question seem to have all sorts of unsavory connotations?

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited April 03, 2001).]

Scouse Gits · April 3, 2001, 07:18

Now I think on - there was a discussion in one of the OCC (Fortnight?) threads in which ?vik? identified the importance of keeping the 6th civ somewhat abreast wih you - this means that if two civs are wiped early you have problems

------------------
Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

La Fayette · April 3, 2001, 07:48

quote:

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 04-03-2001 06:56 AM
The discussion SG speaks of is this one, and specifically the longish comment by La Fayette.

Thank you, Rufus!
SG remembered most of it, apart from the name of the author.
And the name of the author deserves to be praised throughout the centuries

(though I think that much remains to be tested in the field of giving techs; I suggested that ST would do that, but I'm afraid he's much to busy building the WoW among the WoWs: the improved SGs GL!).
I suppose I'm going to be compelled to reopen my lab sooner than expected.

La Fayette · April 3, 2001, 07:57

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-03-2001 05:04 AM
assuming I have remembered correctly and that the poster was not inventing things

I am very happy inventing strategies (though Xin Yu and Solo seem to have published most of what I thought I had discovered).
But I hope you don't have in mind that I might be able to invent test results (I have seen that done in real life and I STRONGLY DISAPPROVE of it).

------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

Scouse Gits · April 3, 2001, 08:35

LaFayette - had I been able to recall that it was your good self that had posted, there would have been no caveat -- however, making recommendation based upon the suggestions of some of our, shall we say younger and more reckless colleagues, would be more dangerous

------------------
Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

solo · April 3, 2001, 11:24

Giving away techs sure does lower beaker costs sometimes! In later stages of the game I have seen them drop by about 15% or more after giving away everything I know to every AI. Sometimes they drop when you give tech to just one AI, and I'm not sure why (maybe that AI is way behind everyone else), but I am reasonably confident that giving to all always seems to do the trick.

There are some dangers:

1) Early in the game, the benefit is not that great and if you don't keep a tech cushion, the AI seem to know this and become more belligerent becuase you no longer have something they need or want. You can usually get some sort of beaker reduction without giving it all away, anyways. Also, the less you give, the faster they learn something themselves that you can trade for later.

2) Giving away a tech too early may mean an AI beats you to Leonardo's or Copernicus, etc., so be careful with the key techs.

3) Giving away too much advanced technology later may give the AI some nifty weapons they will want to try out on you the turn after your act of generosity. The AI aren't all that bad at using advanced weapons.

4) In OCC, try not to give away Combustion too early if you value having the benefit of Colossus in your city. Give them Combustion and they become veritable little Wright Brothers, and will discover Flight before you can say Kitty Hawk.

5) If you become too "chatty", one or more AI may cut you off before you give away enough to lower beakers. Every 10 turns or so seems to be safe.

------------------
It is more pleasant to live in the corner of a housetop,
than in a wide house with a brawling woman.

Xin Yu · April 3, 2001, 13:38

OCC
First contact with an AI: exchange techs, sign peach treaty, gift techs to improve attitude (worshipful), ask for map exchange and ask for alliance. If successful, ask for gift. I guess whether you can get an alliance depends on yours and the AI's power ranking. If you are at peace with the AI's enemy, forget about alliance unless you want to take a reputation hit.
Later, if you want to exchange a tech with an AI, try after gifting techs till attitude is Cordial (in MPE the AI attitude drops to hostile the very next turn after contact).

Give AI techs after trading if the commodity is demanded by the target city. Giving AI tech gifts lowers your beaker requirements for a tech, but also lowers the potential trading bonus -- the trading bonus has an upper limit, which is 2/3 of the beakers for the current tech.

geofelt · April 3, 2001, 15:13

Against the AI, looking to conquer the world; I give techs early to get enthusiastic/worshipful and exchange maps so I know where the civs are. Later, I give railroad when asked, it makes it easier to conquer later.
The ai tries to balance the tech gap by a variety of means. Exchanges among the AI is common, and later on, you can count on theft of spaceship techs. On the other hand, if you have a low science rate, the AI will follow suit and not go so fast. I suspect that caravans are not counted, so fundamentalism and lots of caravans can still get you ahead.

debeest · April 3, 2001, 16:49

** Give AI techs after trading if the commodity is demanded by the target city. **

Can you explain that a little bit? Why only if it's demanded?

** Giving AI tech gifts lowers your beaker requirements for a tech, but also lowers the potential trading bonus -- the trading bonus has an upper limit, which is 2/3 of the beakers for the current tech. **

This is the first I've heard of this. Is this something that other people are aware of? How did you determine it? I'm on a one-man rampage to overthrow the false formulas for trade values in the Scrolls of Wisdom (well, William Keenan is the one who's really doing something about it), and this sounds like yet another argument against those formulae.

Xin Yu · April 3, 2001, 17:05

When it's demanded you can get more instant bonus. If an unmatched caravan gets you 100 golds, then a matched hides caravan to the same city can give you 200. However if one tech needs 200 beakers then you end up with 133 golds.

Scouse Gits · April 4, 2001, 05:02

debeest - this rule, "A caravan can only provide a maximum of two thirds of the beakers required to complete the current advance" was 'common knowledge' when I first joined these fora - it seems to have fallen out of currency - I suspect (since you cannot actually achieve a tech advance by delivering a caravan) it or something very similar is in fact truth, but my own experience would suggest that this does not apply to the gold gained by delivery. As a matter of course I normally delay delivery of 'good' caravans if an advance is imminent so as not to be 'capped', but this could all be urban myth...

------------------
Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

La Fayette · April 4, 2001, 05:50

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-03-2001 08:35 AM
making recommendation based upon the suggestions of some of our, shall we say younger and more reckless colleagues, would be more dangerous

Thank you very much for your confidence (though I suppose I would very much prefer being MUCH younger and MUCH more reckless

).

Scouse Gits · April 4, 2001, 05:57

La Fayette - it has been said, "Youth is wasted on the young." -- by a very wise man in my eyes ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

La Fayette · April 5, 2001, 06:20

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-04-2001 05:57 AM
a very wise man in my eyes ...

Very wise indeed... and I suppose that by 2020 we both find him even wiser
(though IMO the tiny button 'Start a new game' is a quite powerful elixir)

------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental