September 7, 2001, 16:04
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#1
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Warlord
Local Time: 13:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 184
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CIV attributes changing!
No more Scientific and Industrial CIV!
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September 7, 2001, 16:09
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#2
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King
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
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What? 
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September 7, 2001, 16:09
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#3
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Technical Director
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chalmers, Sweden
Posts: 9,294
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 Yes, they changed China to Militaristic and Industrious.
Not a word from them about it either.
__________________
ACS - Technical Director
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September 7, 2001, 16:10
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#4
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Technical Director
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chalmers, Sweden
Posts: 9,294
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__________________
ACS - Technical Director
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September 7, 2001, 16:17
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#5
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King
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,529
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They also changed the Persians from Militaristic/Commercial to Commercial/Scientific.
And moreover, the Germans are now Militaristic/Scientific.
__________________
"As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW
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September 7, 2001, 16:18
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#6
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Warlord
Local Time: 13:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 184
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That's a changing related to the new GA trigger. They changed it this way, so Chinese can get GA by GreatWall solely. Really don't know it's good or not. But after all, they care about our ideas, and we get a preaceful trigger.
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September 7, 2001, 16:19
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#7
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Warlord
Local Time: 13:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Plano TX, USA
Posts: 120
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I wonder if they will change the Romans to Scientific then? They are now listed as the same as the Chinese.
__________________
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home.
-- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
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September 7, 2001, 16:23
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#8
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King
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posts: 1,285
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Quote:
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Originally posted by donarumo
I wonder if they will change the Romans to Scientific then? They are now listed as the same as the Chinese.
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I hope not. Please no! The Romans need to stay as "militaristic" and "industrious".
After all, how many scientific civs are we going to have? They can't all be scientific!!!
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
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September 7, 2001, 16:30
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#9
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King
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,529
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So, now there are three pairs of civs with the same abilities:
- Aztecs and Japanese (Militaristic/Religious)
- Greeks and Persians (Commercial/Scientific)
- Romans and Chinese (Militaristic/Industrious)
And two 'ability-slots' are empty: Militaristic/Commercial (former the Persians) and Scientific/Industrious (former the Chinese).
Surely, there´s a lot of game-balancing going on at Firaxis right now.
__________________
"As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW
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September 7, 2001, 16:32
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#10
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Chieftain
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 47
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Gramphos - not my problem...
Militaristic/Commercial - None
Militaristic/Expansionist - Zulu
Militaristic/Scientific - Germans
Militaristic/Religious - Aztecs/Japanese
Militaristic/industrious - Romans/Chinese
Commercial/Expansionist - English
Commercial/Scientific - Greek/Persians
Commercial/Religious - Indians
Commercial/Industrious - French
Expansionist/Scientific - Russia
Expansionist/Religious - Iroquois
Expansionist/Industrious - Americans
Scientific/Religious - Babylonians
Scientific/Industrious - None
Religious/Industrious - Egypt
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September 7, 2001, 16:51
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#11
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Warlord
Local Time: 05:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Franky's Cellar
Posts: 241
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They haven't updated the description of the Chinese civ in the civ of the week page, though:
>In Civilization III, the Chinese are considered a Scientific and
>Industrious civilization, therefore, they start with Bronze
>Working and Masonry, and have significant bonuses to scientific
>activities pursuits and building activities.
http://www.civ3.com/civoftheweek.cfm?civ=Chinese
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September 7, 2001, 16:57
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#12
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Warlord
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: home
Posts: 170
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Question  :
Do the attributes of a Civ only affect the start-up bonuses of the civ or also affect further gameplay for human players?
For instance, if a civ is set to scientific, does it have a (speed?) advantage in discovering new things?
Grtx
__________________
-------------------------------><------------------------------
History should be known for learning from the past...
Nah... it only shows stupidity of mankind.
-------------------------------><------------------------------
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September 7, 2001, 17:00
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#13
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Warlord
Local Time: 08:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Amherstburg, Ontario
Posts: 240
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Quote:
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Originally posted by tuckson
Question :
Do the attributes of a Civ only affect the start-up bonuses of the civ or also affect further gameplay for human players?
For instance, if a civ is set to scientific, does it have a (speed?) advantage in discovering new things?
Grtx
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You want an answer, do it yourself:
http://www.civ3.com/devupdates/abilitiespopup.cfm
__________________
Retired, and it feels so good!
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September 7, 2001, 17:45
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#14
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Emperor
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 7,138
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I dunno, the chinese are scientific and militaristic in my view. If anything, thier top trait is being scientific.
I guess japanese can become militarist / commercial
Romans could be expantionist militrarist.
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September 7, 2001, 17:45
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#15
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Administrator
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Posts: 11,635
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Quote:
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Lockstep: Surely, there´s a lot of game-balancing going on at Firaxis right now.
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guess so !
this is a good sign. We might pherhaps see more changes soon
__________________
Formerly known as "CyberShy"
Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori
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September 7, 2001, 17:50
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#16
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King
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,555
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If you don't like the default civ attributes...CHANGE THEM. I don't think we have to accept the default since game balancing implies that everyone is equal. If you want a real challenge, how about changing everyone's attributes to militaristic/expansionist except yours? And if possible, change everyone's trigger to a Golden Age (via wonders or units) to something much earlier (or later?) than yours. Or, you can simply change the attributes to suite your view of history.
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September 7, 2001, 17:59
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#17
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King
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posts: 1,285
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Why do some civs have the same attributes while some combinations are not used? Is it for historical reasons, or play-balancing reasons?
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
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September 7, 2001, 18:18
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#18
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Prince
Local Time: 05:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 610
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I'm very glad and relieved they changed Germany to Militaristic/Scientific. In fact, I was planning to do exactly that when I got the game! Partly because I think those two categories better represent the German character, and partly because I thought it was going to cause grumbling if England and Germany had the same attributes! 
__________________
"Harel didn't replay. He just stood there, with his friend, transfixed by the brown balls."
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September 7, 2001, 18:37
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#19
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Prince
Local Time: 13:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Southeast England , UK
Posts: 592
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I'm pleased with these changes, perhaps they're partly from play testing - it would be silly to find the chinese ahead of everyone else in technology by 1900(very unhistoric[nice new word for unrealistic historical stuff] ).
Very interesting about the wonders as well, but I think they'll need to make it hard to get a golden age with your special unit, sounds too easy compared to building a wonder. (perhaps if they made it you had to capture an enemy city with your special)
BUT does your golden age end if the wonder that triggered it is captured/destroyed? (it should do)
I'd give my girlfriend If I had to to get Sid Meier to give me civ3 
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September 7, 2001, 19:05
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#20
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Prince
Local Time: 13:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 334
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I'm very satisfied with these changes. Besides, at Firaxis they're publicly stating that they'd rather admit they were wrong at first than to ship an unbalanced game. This shows character.  Now just rename the chinese "Rider" please. 
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September 7, 2001, 19:31
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#21
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Prince
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: MO
Posts: 543
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i'm glad they fixed the germans, that was thuroughly discussed in another thread and many believed the germans being expansinist was stupid.
how are the chinese militaristic? and why did they go from having only 2 civs the same in abilities to 3? someone said the romans could be militaristic and eexpansionistic. i think that would suit them better than militaristic and industrious. even more so when you realise slaves did so much work in rome while the owners had holidays on literally half the calender.
i hope they do some more tweaking and fix a few things. i want as few civs with the same abilities as possible. because, if not for the abilities the only truly defining difference in the game will be the unique unit.
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September 7, 2001, 19:35
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#22
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Prince
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: MO
Posts: 543
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i'm glad they fixed the germans, that was thuroughly discussed in another thread and many believed the germans being expansinist was stupid.
how are the chinese militaristic? and why did they go from having only 2 civs with the same in abilities to 3? someone said the romans could be militaristic and expansionistic. i think that would suit them better than militaristic and industrious. even more so when you realise slaves did so much work in rome while the owners had holidays on literally half the calender.
militaristic/industrial and scientific/industrial are unused. surely some civs could fit that?
i hope they do some more tweaking and fix a few things. i want as few civs with the same abilities as possible. because, if not for the abilities the only truly defining difference in the game will be the unique unit.
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September 7, 2001, 19:42
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#23
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Prince
Local Time: 08:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Life Goes On
Posts: 519
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how are the chinese militaristic?
i think industious and commercial suits them better
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September 7, 2001, 19:43
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#24
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King
Local Time: 06:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,747
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I doubt that this is even the final version of the Civ Abilities.
__________________
However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.
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September 8, 2001, 01:08
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#25
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Warlord
Local Time: 08:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Eastern US
Posts: 129
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Quote:
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Originally posted by PGM
Besides, at Firaxis they're publicly stating that they'd rather admit they were wrong at first than to ship an unbalanced game.
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Did I miss something or did Firaxis admit they were wrong?
Have they even acknowledged that the Civ abilities have been changed?
Personally I like the changes, but I think it won't really matter much because the editor should allow the civ abilites to be changed as the player sees fit. I think I remember some discussion about being able to randomize the abilites. That would make things even more interesting.
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September 8, 2001, 01:36
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#26
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Settler
Local Time: 21:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Sgp
Posts: 4
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Quote:
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Originally posted by ancient
how are the chinese militaristic?
i think industious and commercial suits them better
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Because Chinese had been around for so long , it depends on which point in chinese history you take.
At some point in China's history, you'll fine a fit for all the abilities.
Most chinese Dynasty start out with a coup /Civil war and was Militaristic in the begiinng ,but after they settled down, they all become more "Civil"
eg.
Shang Dyanasty- Religious/Comericial
Qin Dynasty - Miltarisitc/Expanisionist
Early Han-Milltarisitc/Industrious/Expansionist/Scientific /comerical any combination of these at various points )
Later Han-Comerical/Industirous/Scientific
Tang-same as Early Han, but also religeous (2nd Chinese golden Age)
Song-Comerical/Industrious
Yuan-Expansiionist/Militaristic
Ming -Expansionist/Industrious or Comericial/Industrious
Early Qing- Milltarisiic/Industious or Milltarisitc/Expansionist
on the Whole, Chinese are seldom Scientific, but any combination of Religous,comerical ,industrious,Milltaistic and expansionist
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September 8, 2001, 03:17
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#27
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Chieftain
Local Time: 08:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 74
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Quote:
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Originally posted by GuangRong
on the Whole, Chinese are seldom Scientific,
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What? 
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September 8, 2001, 07:48
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#28
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Prince
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Wünderland
Posts: 543
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Re: CIV attributes changing!
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Quote:
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Originally posted by sekong
No more Scientific and Industrial CIV!
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Oh goodie... How the hell am I now gonna play with a Scientific and Industrial (my favourite bonuses) civilization when there isn't a single one anymore in the list... 
__________________
... This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality...
... Pain is an illusion...
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September 8, 2001, 07:56
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#29
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Prince
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Wünderland
Posts: 543
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Quote:
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Originally posted by GuangRong
on the Whole, Chinese are seldom Scientific
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*comes to a state of deep shock and bewilderment*
erm...
HELLO!!!
Haven't you forgotten about gun-powder, writting, chinese takeaways ( ), and all those other things (which I can't think of at the moment)?
__________________
... This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality...
... Pain is an illusion...
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September 8, 2001, 09:49
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#30
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King
Local Time: 07:10
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Posts: 1,285
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One advantage of having the Persians as "scientific" and "commercial" is that they now have the same attributes as the Greeks which sets up a really potential rivalry! Both the Persians and the Greeks are "commercial" and "scientific" but the Persians get a superior attack unit whereas the Greeks get a superior defensive unit. This sets up a great potential science rivalry between the 2!
__________________
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"
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