Come! Laugh at an SG!

[La Fayette]

Really well done.
HG to avoid unhappiness, GW to feel safe at home, Marco to know where 'they' are, LH to get there ...and there we go, with 6 vet crusaders onboard 3 mighty triremes sailing towards the capital, then a few dips able to bribe small cities after taking the capital.
Really well done.
and very low losses (12 crusaders and 2 elephants IIRC).

I modify the tiny Hall of Fame at once:
AC (with caravan rehoming): smash (launch 1530, ETA 1543)
AC (without rehoming): La Fayette (launch 1550, ETA 1578)
Conquest: arii (800)

[arii]

Actually I built the great wall to prevent an AI civ from having it (they were working on it). It was nice also to have instant walls on newly conquered cities.

[DaveV]

Still plodding along:

1340 Tactics discovered. Oil (D) Theveste->Carthage, 320; Silk Saguntum->Carthage, 100; Dye Utica->Carthage, 62; Silk Theveste->Carthage, 92; Dye Alalia->Carthage, 70; Silk Leptis Magna->Carthage, 80. Rushbuy mass transit in Carthage, caravan in Alalia, 44 shields in Utica, caravan in Theveste, 44 shields in Oea, 35 in Malaca, 46 in Leptis Magna, 12 in Gades.
1360 Aztecs steal Chemistry. Atomic Theory discovered. Carthage builds mass transit. Coal (D) Leptis Magna->Carthage, 200; Oil (D) Theveste->Carthage, 315; Salt Malaca->Carthage, 65; Hides Naples->Carthage, 80; Hides Gades->Carthage, 82; Hides Girba->Carthage, 100. Rushbuy 29 shields in Girba.
1380 Machine tools discovered. Oil (D) Utica->Carthage, 215; Oil (D) Alalia->Carthage, 245; Silk Oea->Carthage, 100; Oil (D) Girba->Carthage, 350. Peace with Americans. Add engineers to smaller cities. Rushbuy coastal fortress in Carthage, 2 shields in Cartenna, 28 in Caralis, 23 in Cannae, 14 in Akragas, 33 in Rusucurru, 5 in Rusicade, 33 in Panormus, 47 in Oea, 22 in Naples, 44 in Malaca, 26 in Capua, 14 in Leptis Parva, 32 in Leptis Magna, 46 in Gades.
1400 Genetic Engineering discovered. Carthage builds coastal fortress. Oil (D) Malaca->Carthage, 226; Oil (D) Gades->Carthage, 315; Coal (D) Leptis Parva->Carthage, 225; Oil (D) Oea->Carthage, 374. We demand tribute from Vikings, they declare war. Rushbuy 40 shields in Alalia, 13 in Akragas, 38 in Utica, 26 in Theveste, 2 in Naples, 27 in Girba, 17 in Carthago Nova.
1420 Miniaturization discovered. Dye Utica->Carthage, 62; Silk Girba->Carthage, 105; Silk Leptis Magna->Carthage, 82; Silk Capua->Carthage, 60; Dye Alalia->Carthage, 70; Cloth Cartenna->Carthage, 107; Hides Leptis Parva->Carthage, 90; Hides N->Carthage, 72; Salt Cannae->Carthage, 70; Spice Panormus->Carthage, 62; Silk Theveste->Carthage, 102. Rushbuy caravan in Carthage, 29 shields in Cartenna, 23 in Caralis; 12 in Akragas, 30 in Rusaddit, 43 in Oea, 47 in Malaca, 34 in Leptis Magna, 43 in Gades
1440 Computers discovered. Gold (D) Carthage->Rusicade, 274; Silk (D) Oea->Carthage, 320; Silk (D) Akragas->Carthage, 240; Coal (D) Leptis Magna->Carthage, 210; Hides Gades->Carthage, 95; Hides Rusucurru->Carthage, 90. Add 12 caravans to SETI in Carthage. Rushbuy 29 shields in Cannae, 47 in Alalia, 44 in Utica, 27 in Tingis, 30 in Theveste, 30 in Naples, 44 in Rusicade, 41 in Leptis Parva, 30 in Girba, 30 in Cremona, 29 in Carthago Nova. Taxes to 0/70/30.
1460 Barbs capture Jorvik . Flight discovered. Taxes to 0/80/20, hire two elvii in Carthage. Oil (D) Utica->Carthage, 117; Silk (D) Leptis Parva->Carthage, 143; Oil (D) Naples->Carthage, 128; Oil (D) Girba->Carthage, 190; Oil (D) Alalia->Carthage, 132; Oil (D) Theveste->Carthage, 187; Silk (D) Cremona->Carthage, 110. Rushbuy 30 shields in Capua, 37 in Akragas, 40 in Theveste, 35 in Oea, 47 in Malaca, 30 in Leptis Magna, 40 in Girba, 45 in Gades.
1480 Radio discovered. Silk (D) Leptis Magna->Carthage, 131; Oil (D) Oea->Carthage, 198; Oil (D) Akragas->Carthage, 144; Silk (D) Theveste->Carthage, 160; Silk (D) Girba->Carthage, 163; Silk (D) Malaca->Carthage, 100; Oil (D) Gades->Carthage, 164; Hides Carthago Nova->Carthage, 48; Beads Rusicade->Carthage, 47; Gems Rusaddit->Carthage, 60. Rushbuy 42 shields in Carthage, 32 in Cannae, 33 in Alalia, 50 in Akragas, 30 in Tingis, 40 in Theveste, 41 in Saguntum, 22 in Rusucurru, 44 in Rusicade, 16 in Rusaddit, 40 in Oea, 30 in Naples, 50 in Malaca, 33 in Leptis Parva, 40 in Leptis Magna, 40 in Girba, 29 in Carthago Nova.

[La Fayette]

Dave
Your island, covered with tiny cities and railroads, is very goodlooking ... and I have a feeling that you might be able to lauch in 1560.
That would be 10 years after me, but if your SS is big and powerful your ETA on AC might be sooner than mine.

(La Fayette, completely convinced that this game is fun)

[Carolus Rex]

I finished my game. Seems I messed up the good start, I launched a 15-3-3-1-1-1 (not fusion powered) ship in 1680, estimated arrival 1701.

I have a couple of questions, but let me post my log first.

400 BC-25 BC

400 Masonry (D), medicine or construction?
275 Construction (D), what good is Shake's if I can't grow past 8?
150 Mathematics (D), astronomy or medicine?
100 50 gold in tribute to the Vikings for peace, wine from Malaca to Lindholm (Russian!), (160 gold, in demand)
75 Astronomy (D), wine to Uppsala from Rusicade (270 gold, in demand), salt from Cartenna to Uppsala (in demand, 192 gold)
50 Medicine (D)
25 CO built in Carthage, war with the Russians. They killed a camel… A completely idiotic move by me... They demanded the Republic and got it, then I made the mistake of asking them to withdraw troops (an annoying chariot in my island), they declared war. That camel was home...

40 AD-280 AD

40 Carthage builds Shake’s
60 University (D)
200 Theory of Gravity (D), wool from Leptis Parva to Trondheim (in demand, 192 gold)
240 Carthage reaches size 12 (the other cities are 6-6-5-5-5-5-5)
280 Navigation (D), hides from Carthage to Stony Lake (in demand, 228 gold), Caralis silk to Stony Lake (in demand, 198 gold)

300 AD-420 AD

300 INC built in Carthage
320 The Wheel (D), silk from Cartenna to Killdeer (in demand, 180 gold), silk from Rusicade to Wounded knee (in demand, 228 gold)
360 Engineering (D)
400 Leptis Parva builds Magellan’s
420 Sanitation (D), Panormus silk to Three Forks (in demand, 192 gold), Rusicade silver to Wounded Knee (in demand, 205 gold), beads from Carthage to Little Bighorn (not in demand, 186 gold)

440 AD-580 AD

440 Banking (D), hides from Carthage to Killdeer (in demand, 328 gold), Bridge Building conquered from russian city on my island
480 Invention (D), silk from Leptis Parva to Little Bighorm (in demand, 252 gold)
500 Leptis Parva builds LW
520 Physics (D), gems from Malaca to Stony Lake (in demand, 156 gold)
560 Warrior Code (D), hides from Carthage to Killdeer (in demand, 432 gold), Utica silk to Wounded Knee (in demand, 204 gold)
580 Steam Engine, Panormus silver to Cedar Creek (in demand, 170 gold), Cartenna gold to Little Bighorn (202 gold?)

620 AD-840 AD

620 Chemistry (D), hides from Carthage to Killdeer (in demand, 464 gold), Panormus wine to Big Mound (in demand, 180 gold)
640 Railroad (D)
700 Leptis Parva builds DW, Iron Working (D), Industrialisation (D), Leptis Parva gems to Cedar Creek (180 gold?), Caralis salt to Little Bighorn (67 gold, not in demand), Carthage hides to Killdeer (310 gold, in demand), Caralis spice to Killdeer (66 gold, not in demand), Malaca wine to killdeer (52 gold, not in demand). Got fed up with logging caravans and bonuses!
720 Gunpowder (D)
760 Democracy (D)
800 Magnetism (D)
840 Explosives (D), revolution

860 AD-1140 AD

860 Elected President
880 Metallurgy (D)
920 Economics (D)
940 Corporation (D)
980 Refining (D)
1000 Atomic Theory (D)
1020 Combustion (D)
1060 Electricity (D)
1080 Steel (D)
1120 Automobile (D)
1140 Electronics (D), Carthage builds superhighways

1180 AD-1420 AD

1180 Mass Production (D)
1200 Conscription (D)
1240 Feudalism (D)
1260 Exchanged Chivalry and Leadership with the Sioux
1280 Tactics (D)
1320 Nuclear Fission (D)
1360 Machine Tools (D)
1400 Nuclear Power (D)
1420 Miniaturization (D), uranium from Rusicade to Carthage (232 gold, in demand)

1440 AD-1701 AD

1440 Computers (D)
1480 The Laser (D)
1500 Flight (D)
1520 Theology (D)
1530 Supported a camel by mistake to Panormus, my intention was to put it to sleep
1540 Radio (D) (must have been tired here, the log says "advanced radio" )
1560 Advanced flight (D)
1580 Rocketry (D)
1600 Mobile Warfare (D)
1620 Space Flight (D)
1630 Leptis Parva builds AP
1640 Plastics (D)
1660 Superconductor (D)
1680 Launch, estimated arrival 1701

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

A couple of questions and things I did wrong.

i) Are 8 camels to get LW in 500 AD only to see it expire in 1120 AD a waste? Should I have traded with them instead?

ii) I think I should have gone for Magnetism before Democracy, and possibly researched it earlier than I did. That would have made an earlier switch to demo possible (caravels -> galleons -> transports, hence no unhappiness caused by roaming ships). Thoughts?

iii) The space ship. It was some time ago that I built one, how much time does a 15-1-1-1-1-1 take? I built a 15-3-3-1-1-1, then I realised that researching Fusion Power for two more turns would mean an arrival of 1715.

iv) I only built libraries (and temples) in the other cities and fairly late. Should they have been built earlier or not at all?

v) I will post a couple of saves later. Would be good (for me) if someone could play one of them, say from 450 BC (where I am set up good) and show me how it should be done.

I think I was a little bit unlucky with the techs available in the end.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

I only grew my capitol to size 24 (later, it turned into size 25 the natural way). A mistake?

Should I have grown my other cities past size 8 (meaning I would have had to invest in marketplaces and aqueducts)?

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Clarification about unlucky tech choices. Theology + Mobile Warfare + (not obvious from the log) after Superconductor was discovered, there was no Fusion Power to research. If it had been available, then the arrival date would have been 1695.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Also, when I tried to get new supplies of goods by sending food caravans to my own cities nothing happened (even though I minimised trade in both cities). Xin Yu, is it random when it works?

Some saves, including the 450 BC.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

More saves.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Not finished yet.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Two to go.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

File was too big, had to fiddle (I have no idea what that means!) a bit...

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

One more question (fairly easy to check, I guess, but I have spent more time on civ and Apolyton this morning than what is good for me ). In 1260 AD, I exchanged techs with the AI and got Chivalry and Leadership.

I suppose it is unnecessary to get both (unless I was researching Chivalry, which I think I was)? If I have Leadership, the tech tree depending on/following it is "open" to me, right?

Carolus

[Edward]

Carolus Rex,

In answer to your last question, yes, "holes" early in your tech tree will not adversely affect the techs available for research.

The techs available for research are only determined by two factors:

1. You can only research techs you have the direct prerequisites for. (i.e. tactics requires leadership and conscription but NOT chivalry (a prerequisite of leadership))

2. All techs fall into one of three groups. (They're divided arbitrarily based on alphabetical order or order in the rules.txt file. The division is the same every game.) Every time you choose a new tech to research, techs in one of the three groups is not available. First, group 1 isn't available. The next time group 2 isn't available, The next time group 3 isn't available. The next time group 1 isn't available again and so on. Obtaining a tech through any means (not just research but also trade, conquering, or huts) will advance the unavailable group.

Basically any given tech will be available 2 times, then unavailable the next time, then be available two times, etc. This was discovered by Oedo. For an in-depth analysis of this, see his "Oedo's Unfinished" or "Next Available" thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001533.html
Oedo successfully used this knowledge to unerringly predict available techs and thus tighten up his tech tree in the early AC landing contest.

Back to your question, it is possible (and even advisable) to leapfrog techs. You can purposely not research, for example, chivalry so as not to carry a "junk tech" and wait to trade for leadership later. This will NOT affect your choices of techs to research. Of course there are a host of techs you can avoid researching with this strategy and you don't need to know the Oedo rules to do it.

[Xin Yu]

Originally posted by Carolus Rex
Also, when I tried to get new supplies of goods by sending food caravans to my own cities nothing happened (even though I minimised trade in both cities). Xin Yu, is it random when it works?

Only the least valued route will be replaced by a more profitable route. If more than one routes have a tie, the first will be replaced. Hence, you need to send a food caravan from a distant city, and the commodity to be replaced needs to be one of the supply commodities of the city.

[La Fayette]

carolus
edward gives good advice about the choice of techs, but your main problem is elsewhere IMO.
Your main problem is that your rate of research in the endgame is much lower than 'ours' (arii's or smash's or mine).
2 main reasons for that:
1) medium range foreign trade.
Your savegames show that you are mostly trading with Killdeer and a few other Sioux cities close by. The distance between Killdeer and Panormus is about 21 (and your shipchain is somewhat in disorder). With 2 or 3 more transports and a well organized shipchain, you might be able to trade with a big city twice as far as that and get almost double delivery bonuses.
2) Contact with other civs
Close to the endgame, you have no embassies at all and only a few maps. Therefore you miss long distance foreign trade (see above) and 'management of foreign research'.
Have you read the threads named 'science' in the GL?
There was a fierce competition between early landers in the beginning of 2001, especially between solo and samson. Very happily for us, samson was recovering from an illness and had plenty of time available to do research.
That gave us 'beaker counts' and 'target civs': the 2 strong legs of what I name 'management of foreign research'. Thank you samson!
In short, if you count beakers and wisely give techs to the AI, you can boost your research. Read it, try it and let us know!


(La Fayette, listening to sound advice given by solo and samson)

[Carolus Rex]

Thanks for your extensive and valuable replies, guys!

Seems that I have some catching up to do (still, I launched "only" 11 turns after Smash and La Fayette, so watch out... ).

Yes, the ship chain was not properly organised. In fact, for trading with the Sioux I had too many ships. That's why I didn't bother to optimise it. Still, that's no reason why I shouldn't trade with the other civs.

About the food caravans. I don't think I understand. This is how I see it, please correct the wrongs.

i) After a while a city produces nothing but food caravans (no supply of new goods)

ii) This is a nuisance for your foreign trade, so how to get the cities to supply new commodities?

iii) Minimise trade in both the sending and receiving city to make the value of the food caravan as low as possible, so that it will not replace any of your trade routes

iv) Move the food caravan into the targeted city

v) No trade route is replaced, and the sending city is able to produce new commodities

What is wrong in the chain of events in i) to v)?

Carolus (going to the Great Library to borrow some threads )

[Carolus Rex]

Addendum.

A lot of my commodities were not in demand. Is there a way to control which the new commodities will be?

Carolus

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Carolus Rex
(still, I launched "only" 11 turns after Smash and La Fayette, so watch out... ).

Some people on these forums are that kind of 'eager to win' people who have some tricks available and try to keep them secret, with the secret hope that they are going to win their games with help of those secret tricks.

Smash is like me, I think: no secret, try to play his best and explain why and how, happy if someone gets a better result than his own, this provides better competition next time.

(BTW carolus, I launched 2 turns sooner at 3rd try )

[Smash]

my 2 cents

1 Leo's....I think it is well worth it for just settlers>engineers and boats.But I might have delivered those camels and bought it.This is what I do for most of the later wonders.Generally I only build up a few cities with infastructure so I spend mainly on cargo,engineers,boats and wonders..later SS parts.

2.Magnetism is crucial for me but no good without Leo's as I build my boats early and get them into position..or try to at least.I don't do much trading overseas until magentism unless i can support boats out of the Shake's city or JSB.So I want Invention before Magnet in most cases.

3.15-1-1-1-1-1 with fusion is 36 years

4.I also don't build libraries until very late if at all(cept a few obvious cities).Its better to generate science with trade arrows..so most f my my cities get markets,banks,exchanges and superhighways long before they see a library.

Since you are usually capable of 1 tech per turn there is not much that can be done with tech choices.You will get rooked eventually unless you like the ais to have most of your advanced techs.I would try to keep the ai with at least 1 tech tech I don't have for such a situation.Once I start ship chaining I usually ignore the ais completely as far techs go.Manipulating must be done early.Their rates just die out after while.I've never had too much success with a pet civ researching.They always seem to wander off in useless tech directions ie amphibious warfare or communism at some point.And gifting can be a pain as I often have to give a bunch I don't want to just to get the one I want to gift as an option.

[Carolus Rex]

Thanks!

Carolus

[Edward]

Carolus Rex,

The full discussion of Xin Yu's strategy can be found in this thread:
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...001778.html?11

To elaborate on Xin Yu's response, there are a number of conditions to be met.

1. The delivered food caravan only replaces an existing route if it's perceived to be worth equal to or more than your current best route.

Say Las Vegas has all its supplied commodities tied up. You want to deliver a Las Vegas food caravan somewhere in an effort to free up some Las Vegas supply. As you already noted, you should minimize arrows worked in all cities with which Las Vegas has permanent trade routes. You want to maximize arrows worked in the city you send the food caravan to. The city you send the food caravan to should be equal to or greater in size than the cities Las Vegas is currently trading with. By doing all of these things, the computer will think the new food route looks better than your existing Las Vegas routes, and will replace one of them with the food route. (In some cases, all three of your Las Vegas routes will be to the same city. If you deliver a food caravan to this same city, it's guaranteed to be equal in value to your existing routes and will thereby replace one without you needing to fidget with worked squares.)

2. The food route replaces the worst permanent route in Las Vegas. By looking at the city screen in Las Vegas, you can predict which route will be replaced (the one with the smallest +whatever$ next to it). If there's a tie for worst route, the food route replaces the first route (the one listed first, not necessarily the oldest one).

Now that you know which route will be replaced, look at the commodity for that route. Is that commodity one of the three in parentheses as a supply in Las Vegas? If not, you're out of luck. If you replace this non-supplied commodity, none of your tied up supplies will be replaced.

Is this correct, Xin Yu?

Thank heavens they're getting rid of caravans in Civ3!

[arii]

Just finished my third attempt for alpha, and it's a good one.
Launched my spaceship in 1180 (15-2-2-1-1-1 28.2 years 87% no fusion power), EA 1208. This was without rehoming.
My strategy for this one was to build marco 1st and ASAP (similar to conquest game). This allowed me to have the maps of the AI plus a lot of techs that I did not have to research. I was also able to monitor the AI science progress. Thus giving almost everything to mongol, and giving techs to the other AIs until they would research something usefull. I build the lighthouse and HG next. Compare to the previous game I built a lot less caravans but was able to deliver them at further locations thanks to marco+lighthouse and thus getting better returns. I also focus very early on the SSC (built cope and isaac a lot earlier) and spent ressources on only 2 other cities.
Enjoy the saves.

[La Fayette]

arii

The Hall of Fame is much simpler now:

Conquest: arii (800)
AC: arii (ETA 1208)

IMO the gap is now so huge with previous attempts by other players that this Hall of Fame probably never will be modified.

Let us sing the glory of arii, President of the Carthaginians for the centuries to come.


(La Fayette, ready to study arii's savegames, eager to learn lessons from the MAAAAASTER)

[Carolus Rex]

Excellent!

I bow my head in respect.

Dare I say this? Yes I do. I don't think the conquest game is safe, far from it. My bet is that DaveV will overcome it if he puts his mind to it.

Carolus

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Carolus Rex
Dare I say this? Yes I do. I don't think the conquest game is safe, far from it. My bet is that DaveV will overcome it if he puts his mind to it.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, CR. Inspired by your faith, and bored to tears with shuttling freight units, I decided to try a conquest game.

Final result: AD 260. I built lots of triremes and elephants, and played a straight attacking game.

[Carolus Rex]

I knew you would break it, Dave!



Carolus

[La Fayette]

LOL@ Carolus
You guessed right.

Therefore new tiny Hall of Fame
Landing: arii (ETA: 1208 AD)
Conquest: DaveV (260 AD)


(La Fayette, looking at an elephant across the road and quite sure that Dave isn't far away)

[La Fayette]

Dave
I think that arii, smash and I could offer you a caravel of honour with 3 camels onboard