This Week's Reasons to WAIT to Buy Civ 3:

[yin26]

if too many people take your advice there won't be an update.

Then again, if EVERYBODY took such caution in buying games, companies would have to put out games in proper condition in the first place.

Anyway, I said "reasons to WAIT" not "never buy."

[- Groucho -]

But we don't, so they won't.

"Wait" might as well be "never buy" - a game really only has about three months to make it. If you wait for MP or the first big patch then you will count as a "never buy" as far as the "do we spend more money" decision is concerned.

[just to show my bias - I have to confess to already having pre-ordered the limited edition. What can I say? I'm weak.]

[Steve Clark]

No, I truly believed that too much time was wasted on such things. I had argued to no avail (regarding the debate about what Alexander should look like) that it is irrelevant and hopefully ignored. Someone argued that you need the eye-candy to tell what their reactions are. I said that having the words, "Mao, leader of the Chinese, is pissed at you" would more than suffice. I don't want leader animations, I couldn't care less what they look like and I will find a way to remove them from the informational screens.

[- Groucho -]

[tongue in cheek] O c'mon steve - you're telling me you don't want that stoned babylonian prancing around your screen? And you call yourself a strategy gamer? [/tongue in cheek]

[yin26]

LOL! It will be cute/annoying the first time you see it and just annoying after that.

Steve: I remember your saying that about Mao, and I agree.

Echinda: I know I will never win this 'battle.' I am the Don Quixote of the gaming world. By the way, Gamespot had an article about buying 'older games' instead of new stuff. It makes sense, of course, for a million reasons, but it's not human nature.

[Steve Clark]

LOL, echinda, go tell that over in the Civ3-Civilizations forum and you'll get folks hammering you.

[yin26]

Here's the article: Staying One Step Behind.

[- Groucho -]

That's a good article. In all things computer (except Civ) I'm a proponent of appropriate technology - I'm almost always a couple of years behind the tech curve at home because the stuff I've got works, so why buy new buggy stuff that will just make my existing stuff stop working?

Except Civ.

Why? Because Excel spreadsheets just don't have the same addictive capacity, I guess.

[Steve Clark]

You know, yin, I do understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree with you regarding Civ3. I am 41 yrs old and been in gaming since the 1980s. In some of the other fora that I'm active in, I railed against many, if not all, of the latest and greatest games. I also do not have anything kind to say about the whole console gaming market and their players. I made comments that I had stop subscribing to computer game magazines because I am totally the wrong kind of customer for them. They (and the gaming industry) appeal to the crowd that wants way kewl, kick ass games that rawks. That's definitely not me. I prefer to play (and replay and replay) a 6 year old game. They don't want me doing that, they want me to stop playing old games and keep buying new ones.

You know how many games I've bought this year (btw, I can easily afford games, computers, etc.)? 3 (EU, which you and I know about; The College Years and Shogun). And what do I end up playing most of this year? Civ2, Imperialism II and Pharaoh, all games 2 yrs or older. No, I don't like 99% of what comes out on the market but I know (and love) Civ2 and I view Civ3 just an enhancement of it and that can only be a good thing.

[yin26]

Echinda and Steve: I'm there with you guys in spirit. But I have adopted Mulder's line: "Trust no one."

[- Groucho -]

I have had much the same experience this year. I'm 32 and funds aren't an issue, but though I've got EU loaded up, I keep going back and playing SMAC. I just like it. The story is a little goofy - but the engine is great (love that unit workshop) ... and something about Miriam makes me want to crush her like a bug - must be the haircut. I have a feeling I'll be smacking that Babylonian around for much the same reason.

Well, that's enough chatting for me - it's midnight on the east coast and I'm taking the kids to Mystic, CT tomorrow (three hour drive). G'night.

[Imran Siddiqui]

LOL! This is the guy, who is trying his damned hardest to get Apolyton to pay for Civ3 for him (for a review he says) so he won't be exposed as a hypocrite when he buys it himself.

Your act wears thin.

[dennis580]

Fact- The majority of Civ players don't give a rats a$$ about MP
Fact- Firaxis probaly has not even thought about MP because thier concentrating on making Civ 3 the pinnacle of SP games for years to come.

[yin26]

Imran: The 'Buy me Civ3' thing was a joke. Live a little.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Underlying it is a desire for a free Civ3. Because you know you will buy a copy!

[korn469]

yin has a number of good points here

Civ3 has a bull's eye painted on it because firaxis has said over and over again that civ3 is going to be the greatest civ experiance to date

well if it doen't ship with MP then it is inferior to Civ2 MPG, SMAC, or CtP because all of those games had MP ability

posted by Steve Clark
It's a good thing that I don't care about MP at all

You assume that an AI can be properly written in the first place. I expect the AI to be serviceable

Wouldn't you rather have a product that went through its own development and testing cycle instead of being piggy-backed on (or just thrown in with) SP??? Separating out MP from SP versions means the potential of both products being better without one causing problems (or conflicting with) the other.

that cracks me up...steve you don't care about MP but on the same hand you realize that the AI isn't capable of putting up a fight except with scenarios where everything is stacked in it's favor...they should be able to balance out the development between SP and MP, this is something they knew players would want even before they started making the game so they should have added in time to develop multiplayer earlier in the game's development cycle like how all of the other game developers do

here is an article for everyone to read by Bruce Shelly, you know that civ1, Age of Empires, Age of Kings guy

Polish the game

Reserve time at the end of a project to polish the game by adding the little necessary touches, bringing all of the elements to a high production value standard. Test rigorously to insure balance (where appropriate), to eliminate any potentially fatal gameplay flaws, and to insure that there is no single optimal winning strategy (or unit, or spell, etc.). When the game reaches the customer, we want them to feel that every aspect of the game was well planned and executed. Polish tells our customers that we took the time and made the effort to craft an extraordinary product.

Polishing a game increases customer satisfaction, enhances the reputation of the developer and publisher, and builds fan loyalty. Lack of polish has a negative effect on all of these areas, working against the goals of everyone involved in development. There is no acceptable excuse for not polishing a game. If you cannot afford to polish, you are in the wrong business or your team was inadequate (too small or unskilled). Nearly done is not an acceptable standard if you are going for the gold.

i just don't think we are asking too much to have a high quality civ3

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by korn469
well if it doen't ship with MP then it is inferior to Civ2 MPG, SMAC, or CtP because all of those games had MP ability

Civ II shipped without MP capabilities. Then TPTB shipped Civ II Gold/MPG to keep MP folks happy and we ended up with a horribly aggressive AI that makes SP play on Civ II Gold/MPG highly undesirable.

Furthermore, MP capabilities made the Mac version of Civ II Gold unstable (along with the aggressive AI problem). There was a bug in the damn game that would crash the program nearly every time the player tried to exit it. I was told that the bug's origins lay w/i the slapped on MP capabilities and to take it out would require the removal of the MP component from Civ II Gold/MPG.

So, I'd rather have TPTB ship out a tip-top SP version of Civ III rather than try to tack on an MP component that might screw up the SP experience. Better for them to *perfect* MP and add it on later to Civ III.

One would think that gamer experiences with Civ II Gold/MPG and CtP would make us a bit wary about cramming everything together at once for a single release date. I am more than happy to buy the SP now and MP later if it interests me, particularly if the latter doesn't crash the former when implemented.

CYBERAmazon

[yin26]

Imran: Yes, I will buy a copy...at half price.

Korn: Amen! "Nearly done is not an acceptable standard if you are going for the gold." It brings a tear...

[yin26]

...particularly if the latter doesn't crash the former when implemented.

One would imagine we have the technology to avoid such things. But I'm a dreamer...

[faded glory]

Sorry, Im still reeling from CTP2 trauma. Where activision 'promised' all the MP features and fixes. Then suddenly when sales plummeted and profits were nill. They pulled the plug on the patch program.

Thus we had a bugged Single player, unplayable mplayer. And an incomplete PBEM feature.

Thanks Craptivision

no, I will buy it. I will never trust a Civ label again if it does not have a usable PBEM feature

never !!!!!!

[korn469]

CYBERAmazon

note i didn't say civ2, i said civ2 MPG

btw what does TPTB mean?

One would think that gamer experiences with Civ II Gold/MPG and CtP would make us a bit wary about cramming everything together at once for a single release date. I am more than happy to buy the SP now and MP later if it interests me, particularly if the latter doesn't crash the former when implemented.

well what if 50% of the players are primarily interested in MP and they don't want to have to buy an extra game? that cuts sales in half

with proper planing you don't have to choose between a stable single player experiance or a stable multiplayer experiance...i know in starcraft that both SP and MP were stable, the same goes for AoK...Emperor:Battle for Dune is stable...multiplayer isn't a perk, it is almost required in a strategy games these days

i want a stable well balanced civ3 that has both SP and MP out of the box, i don't think that is too much to ask for, and to me this looks like another sign that civ3 is being rushed out the door to make a christmas release...what if other parts of the game like the scenario editor get held back too?

who would have thought that asking to play a normal game of civ3 with 2 human players and 8 AIs would be WAY beyond its capabilities?

[Mannamagnus]

Yin could you maybe consider going back into exile? Your constant negativism and whining is starting to go on my nerves!

[tniem]

yin - great points once again.

I said earlier in another thread that Civ3 minus MP would cause me to not buy Sim Golf but you know what that doesn't hurt Infogrames in the slightest.

And the problem is that I want Infogrames to figure this out before MOO3's release. I mean it appears that they are going to force Firaxis to release an unfinished game no matter what we say. So what are the going to do to MOO3?

Sure Quicksilver is fan friendly but Sid is a legend in gaming and he has not been able to get the heat off his back? What is going on?

So I am going to save myself $50 by not purchasing Civ III at the start and hopefully Infogrames will wake up and allow a good MOO3 to be released no matter how long it takes.


Oh and while I was at first skeptical of the post early in the day, we are now almost 24 hours later and not a single post against this from Firaxis. They have had to heard are screming by now and they haven't said a thing. Every minute is making me more and more convinced that yes MP has been delayed. And they didn't even have the curteousy to let us know. Thanks Firaxis!

[yin26]

Tniem: Yes, so many problems could have been and could still be solved simply by dealing with the public in a more informative and timely manner. But there seems little hope of Firaxis changing its ways.

Your constant negativism and whining is starting to go on my nerves!

1) Ignore my threads, then.
2) Am I negative without good reason?
3) Whining isn't whining if the answer to #2 is "No."

Hey, I have found MY solution. I'll buy the game much, much later...if ever. Why not come up with some of your own by reviewing the 3 items listed above. Thanks.

[mactbone]

Double post

[mactbone]

AAAAAAARGH!!!
First of all, I may not buy Civ 3 right when it comes out (finances and all), but if you haven't noticed there are only a handful of games that stay on shelves for more than six months. Those that suck so bad that everyone tried to return the game, and those that enjoy wildly successful popularity (C&C Games, Blizzard games). So to say, hey, wait a while, buy the game when the X-Pac (which is total speculation anyway) comes out then you're SOL. It won't be there unless your nearby stores keep stocking a game 6 months after release. As to the MP not being in the game, I've read that thread. I've also seen the Civ 3 website, which do you think is more accurate? Although they did change the Civ attributes w/o any statement... Anyways, on to your "it WILL be buggy". How do you know? Have you played it? Fact is it's probably buggy RIGHT NOW, but it won't require an immediate patch just to be able to play right out of the box (as you imply). Oh, if MP is cut out, they better have an easy to use interface to find new players to play against, plus that whole it'll be free thing.
Why is everyone so down on the civ faces? So what if they're not entirely accurate, would you rather have your face (I say this because I wouldn't)?
As to the plethora of cruddy games being released right now, just remember, Civ 3, Warcraft 3, Empire Earth, and MoO 3 will all be released (supposedly) by February. At least one of the aforementioned games WILL blow chunks. My guess is Empire Earth, they set unrealistically high goals, but if they pull it off? We have Civ 3 and Empire Earth for all your god gaming needs.

[yin26]

I've also seen the Civ 3 website, which do you think is more accurate?

I won't bother rehashing the history of Firaxis on the Web. Needless to say, I trust the e-mail 'rumor.' You can tar and feather me as a fool if that mail is proved false.

[korn469]

well we should wait until firaxis officially announces that multiplayer won't make it into civ3 before we form the lynch mob

but who knows maybe we are completely wrong, the single player component is almost finished and it will be quite possibly the best SP game ever, and then they are going to be adding in some radical new MP options, like a persistant civ3 game on firaxis servers perhaps

we won't know how good or bad civ3 will be till the game comes out, but SMAC was built using the same system and rules as civ3 and many of you have already stated time and time again how bad it sucks...so the civ formula can still produce a game that people think is subpar, but i really hope that civ3 does provide the best civ experiance ever and i'm sure that firaxis intends to make civ3 as good as they can, but i still just get the feeling that it could really use some more time, more time that infogrames doesn't want to give it

[yin26]

Oh, and I'm sure it will be PLAYABLE. My point is whether or not it will be ENJOYABLE.

[tniem]

Originally posted by Mannamagnus
Your constant negativism and whining is starting to go on my nerves!

But everything he has complained about is right on the money. What game is now on the market without MP? What game is not only having changes made to it but fundamental ones like triggers to the Golden Ages less than a month and a half from release?

Lets put it another way. Yin has probably spent over a thousand hours on this forum. He helped put together a list that helped influence ideas that have been added to the game. To him this is his baby.

Now if he did this for MOO3, he would have been added to the Quicksilver team (that is what Stormhound did and other members of their team) but not only does Firaxis ignore him, they lie to him and the rest of us.

They promise the best Civ experience ever with new features for MP play. It appears that they aren't going to give it to us. THEY FLAT OUT LIED TO US!

Yin is only pointing out that we don't have to be mindless drones and buy the game at release and it will make a difference. I am a little bit more angry. I have in effect wasted hours of my life on this thread because I was looking forward to Civ III and I believed Firaxis would deliver. I even knew that their publisher would try to force a date on us but I figured Sid was a legend and could give the game some wiggle room. I guess I was wrong and very disappointed.