About the American Civilization......

[Melios]

I've been wondering this since the original Civ: Why Abraham Lincoln as the default leader? Why not Thomas Jefferson, who wrote most of the Declaration of Independence?

I also am a bit confused on why Civ2's default American female leader was Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Tarquinius]

Well, I think I'd rather have George Washington as default leader of the Americans, because he was the first president. But Abraham Lincoln isn't a bad choice in my opinion.
But not Thomas Jefferson, he wasn't even a president!!

And about the female leader, the Americans didn't have one, so they had to think of something

[saracen31]

Ummm...Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd president of the US. Of course he was president!

[jsw363]

Originally posted by saracen31
Ummm...Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd president of the US.

Umm.... I hope that this is a joke.

About the Lincoln debate, well I would prefer Washington, but Lincoln's a close second. Yep, there hasn't ever been a female president and no woman has had a significant impact on US history, so they had to choose someone... (And just so I dont get a bunch of angry feminist e-mails, there have been some female leaders, but no female has ever really commanded the nation)Guess Eleanor was the best they could do.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by jsw363
Umm.... I hope that this is a joke.

Umm, why?

American Presidents:

1.George Washington : 1789-1797
2.John Adams : 1797-1801
3.Thomas Jefferson : 1801-1809
4.James Madison : 1809-1817
5.James Monroe : 1817-1825

[Martinus]

Originally posted by jsw363
About the Lincoln debate, well I would prefer Washington, but Lincoln's a close second. Yep, there hasn't ever been a female president and no woman has had a significant impact on US history, so they had to choose someone...

:hmm: I can name at least 4 from Clinton's presidency:

1. Hillary
2. Madelaine Albright
3. Janet Reno

4. ...Monica

[static]

Abe Lincoln, George Washington, or F.D.R., all would make great choices, but Washington probably will be a great leader.

Eleanor Roosevelt was the female leader because during the late years of WW2 she played a major in running America as F.D.R.'s health was failing. For a while 'in a way' she was the president.

[monkspider]

There aren't any significant women in America's history huh?That's a bigger joke than Jefferson not being president!

-Susan B Anthony
- Rosa Parks
- Elizabeth Cady Stanton
- Amelia Earhart
- Mary Stone

Plus a ton of great Authors, scientists, poets, etc etc

And I do speak this as a man!

Originally posted by static
Abe Lincoln, George Washington, or F.D.R., all would make great choices, but Washington probably will be a great leader.

Eleanor Roosevelt was the female leader because during the late years of WW2 she played a major in running America as F.D.R.'s health was failing. For a while 'in a way' she was the president.

Maybe a lot of you don't know that Mrs. Roosevelt was one of the reason that the Black flyer had a change to fight during WW II to show how good they could be.
It is now a matter of records that they while flying cover for our Bomber, they never aloud one Bomber to be shot down by the German Air Force. No other Fighter Command can claim that.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, I'd like Jefferson as the American leader. That would be very cool.

However, at the same time, I think that the American leader should be from the 20th Century. The US became powerful in the 1900s, and especially during the latter end of Franklin Roosevelt's administration (WW2).

[monolith94]

Tomas Jefferson would make a great leader; he wrote the Decleration of Indipendence, and was a great President, opening up the West to American expansion by buying the Louisiana purchase from France.

Washington was just a big ole stick in the mud.

[Felch]

Didn't Woodrow Wilson's wife take over after his stroke? I seem to recall something along those lines.

Although I don't like Lincoln as the leader, I think the reason may be that he created the United States as we know it today, which is one with a powerful central government and weak states.

I think that the herald in Civ2 should have been a businessman instead of some goofy redneck though. More a sign of America's international influence.

I do agree with it being Thomas Jefferson, although some people might view slaveholders as being a bit out of place. Possibly JFK?

[jsw363]

Locutus-

You're right. So sorry. Guess my US history isn't as good as I thought it was. I think I was thinking of Franklin, who everyone thinks was preseident, but never was. Anyways, mea culpa.

As for:

- Hillary Clinton
- Madelaine Albright
- Janet Reno
- Susan B Anthony
- Rosa Parks
- Elizabeth Cady Stanton
- Amelia Earhart
- Mary Stone

All of them were brilliant women, but I just don't think that there's a convincing argument to be made that any of them had a significant impact on the history of the United States.

Clinton was only elected to public office after she achieved fame (or infamy) because of her husband's presidency. Her futile attempt at health care reform might have been significant had it not failed.

Albright was Secretary of State for four years and really didn't make any important policy decisions. She hasn't held elected office and didn't formulate a clear foreign policy for the US in the Post Cold War.

Reno's highest elected office was State Attorney of Florida (not super impressive) and has yet to really have a significant impact on much of the American legal system besides her dealings with a certain Cuban boy and a failed impeachment attempt, certainly NOT defining moments in US history.

Anthony and Cady Stanton are at least reasonable possibilities, but they really only were concerned with one issue, women's sufferage. Yes, this was important in the history of teh US, but I think that there have been MANY other leaders with a much more significant impact than these two.

Parks did help to spawn the civil rights movement, but was more of an icon than a leader. I think that Dr. King is a much better example of a civil rights leader.

Earheart was little more than a pilot (Correct me if I'm wrong) Certainly a brave and intriguing woman, but hardly a leader.

Haven't even heard of Stone, so can't refute that one...

I don't mean to diminish any of these women's accomplishments; all are incredible people. I just don't think that any of them are really American leaders. Parks and Anthony perhaps, but they still don't convince me.

[Inverse Icarus]

Reagan

Originally posted by UberKruX
Reagan

Reagan did some good and some bad in my view.
Stoping the spread of Communism in Central America, our Congress did not want to stop it. Cutting Taxes.
Bad; Removing the retirement age on Federal working from 70 to whatever, Firing the Aircraft Controller, making Federal Employee paid for Medicare without allowing it to be a tax deduction. Cap our paid for 2 year w/o a raise.

[d_dudy]

i've seen poles taken that said historians believe lincoln to be the greatest president ever. because he kept the country together in such bad times and did some really gutsy leadership things by stretching the constitution when he arrested maruland democrats.

washington should be a great military leader.

reagen would be great for a ww3 scenario. us vs ussr

[jsw363]

Reagan was a GREAT president. I think that his decision to fire the air traffic controllers was a GOOD one. That single decision shifted the balance of power between labor and management forever. It allowed companies to fire workers, adapt to the information revolution and then hire more workers. As a result millions of jobs were eliminated, BUT also millions of jobs were created, helping thrust America into the economic expansion of the 90's.

[static]

Originally posted by jsw363
Reagan was a GREAT president. I think that his decision to fire the air traffic controllers was a GOOD one. That single decision shifted the balance of power between labor and management forever. It allowed companies to fire workers, adapt to the information revolution and then hire more workers. As a result millions of jobs were eliminated, BUT also millions of jobs were created, helping thrust America into the economic expansion of the 90's.

Reagan was a great man, but a so-so president. The nation's deficit skyrocketed under him, and his tax cut was all smoke and mirrors. However, he was good with foriegn affairs and helped bring about the end of the cold war.

Here's my top five presidents:

1. F.D.R. - Led the country out the economic ruin and of course his leadership during WW2.

2. Lincoln - Kept the country together during the civil war (much harder than it sounds).

3. Washington - His diplomacy and honesty was necessary for the U.S. when it started, especially with all politcal battles over state rights.

4. Cinton - Yeah, I know what your thinking, but when he took office our nation was in a reccession, headed for a depression. His handling of the price of oil was amazing, really. With cheaper oil our industries surged back on their feet, and his administration was key for the expansion of the internet(No, Al Gore didn't invent it. ). America had it greatest economic boom, by far, under his presidency. And you can't forget about him getting 'favors' from an intern while on the phone with senators.

5. Jefferson - Perhaps had the biggest impact on America than any other president, but most of it actually came before and during the formation of the U.S., and not while he was office.

[Felch]

I'd have to say that doubling the size of the country through the Louisiana Purchase and writing most of the DoI slightly outweigh getting a hummer from a fat chick.

[static]

Originally posted by Felch X
I'd have to say that doubling the size of the country through the Louisiana Purchase and writing most of the DoI slightly outweigh getting a hummer from a fat chick.

True , But the DofI, while a VERY important symbol of freedom, didn't shape the goverment and polictical systems of America. The constitution is what our country is based on. The Louisiana Purchase was significant for the expansion of the country, so you have a good argument there.

P.S. - Monica is not a fat chick, she's just 'Big-Boned'.

[Inverse Icarus]

ok. i know right now all you Yoorp people are goign to slam clinton for the affairs...

well think of this: did we elect him to be a good person? no. we elected him to do the best he could four the nation. and he did.

HE WAS A GREAT PRESIDENT, BUT NOT SO GREAT A MAN.

(and this should be a double blessing comming from a republican)

[Felch]

It would be silly for Europeans to trash us for the affairs of Clinton.

Didn't some French President or something go to a state funeral with his mistress?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Possibly JFK?

Ugh! What a horrible President!

Clinton in the Top 5 . Funny, since the historians, who rank the Presidents (Republicans & Democrats) put him mid-pack. Yes, Reagan would be better, but still not that good. F.D.R might be the best. He was there when the US was at the beginning of its strongest era. Maybe Eisenhower would be good as well.

[Christantine The Great]

Doubling the size of the US by buying land at rock bottom prices from a country that didn't want it anyway isn't that impressive...

[static]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

Possibly JFK?

Ugh! What a horrible President!

Clinton in the Top 5 . Funny, since the historians, who rank the Presidents (Republicans & Democrats) put him mid-pack. Yes, Reagan would be better, but still not that good. F.D.R might be the best. He was there when the US was at the beginning of its strongest era. Maybe Eisenhower would be good as well.

Eisenhower , He was perhaps our dumbest president ever, he makes G.W. Bush look like Einstein.

JFK was a good president, Apollo Program was his idea and many thought he was crazy at the time. Leadership during the Cuban missile crisis, and of course, banging Marilyn Monroe (I guess I have a one track mind).

Clinton was ranked mid-pack because is was still in office, 50 years from now I think they will rank him in the top five.

[Felch]

It's funny how times change.

I'm an ancient studies major now, and one of the biggest bothers in terms of ancient historical documents is that all they do is praise the local ruler. So the first hand accounts are often things like, "The Great King Zybilogylisowagglethorp led an army of 100,000 mighty soldiers against his enemy, and, after a great slaughter, invented the Internet."

Point is, in modern times we've gone to the opposite extreme, at least according to static. Our leaders nowadays are just humdrum, run of the mill, nobodys. Although I don't consider Clinton that great it is interesting that he was considered so average.

[saracen31]

Funny that to be considered a "great" U.S. president, you had to have been in office during a war. Washington, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR - all during wars which the U.S. won.

It's not an easy choice. But I'm sure it will come down to Lincoln or Washington - you could make a case for either. Wilson did contribute quite a bit with the League of Nations, but there's no way he's the leader. FDR's biggest legacy today is that almost 40% of my paycheck is being sucked away by the government every 2 weeks.

For the great woman leader: can't really think of one, that's pretty pathetic. Eleanor Roosevelt would have to be my choice.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by saracen31
Funny that to be considered a "great" U.S. president, you had to have been in office during a war. Washington, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR - all during wars which the U.S. won

What war was Washington in office during?

[Tingkai]

RE: Hillary Clinton for woman leader of American Civ?

We should start that rumour. Can you imagine how the republicans would react. It would be like the old cartoons with the eyes bugging out and steam coming out of their ears. Civ would be front page news. Can you imagine how some people on this list would react. We'd never hear the end of it.

[Kc7mxo]

***********
4. Cinton - Yeah, I know what your thinking, but when he took office our nation was in a reccession, headed for a depression. His handling of the price of oil was amazing, really. With cheaper oil our industries surged back on their feet, and his administration was key for the expansion of the internet(No, Al Gore didn't invent it. ). America had it greatest economic boom, by far, under his presidency. And you can't forget about him getting 'favors' from an intern while on the phone with senators.
************

Clinton as top 5 president? Thats rather a stretch don't you think.

Any economist can tell you that the president has very little effect on the economy. His handling of the oil crisis? Please.

Greatest economic boom. The economic boom was alrady gaining strength s he went in to office. He merely didn't do anything to hinder it. And the current reccession started before he left office. But it wasn't his fault either.

JFk would certainly belong higher up on the list if only for his more unifyiny abilities (thoguh he wasn't universally liked, not by a long shot). I think that in the great book of history clinton will go down next to taft, nothing special.