Are the Civilizaion abilities balanzed?

[Jeje2]

We have now been talkng about new civilization abilities for the expansion pack for a while. While I was just posting about additional abilities, I started to think that: Are the current abilities balanzed?

Take a look at the Firaxis list at Civ3 official site.

While I looked at them I started to think that is Expansionit underbalansed compared to the others when it has as effect 2 only an scout for you at the beginning?

So is it balanzed?
Of course it would help estimating if I knew which science is required for scout.
But anyway I now do think that maybe expansionist would need someting else/more as effect 2. (Ex. incresed sightrange +1 for scouts)

What do you think, are the abilities balanzed or...?

[monolith94]

Depends on if it's a Protoss scout
A horseman
Or just a 1/1/1 warrior

[Urban Ranger]

A scout, I reckon, is probably a 0/1/3 unit who treats all terrain as clear.

At any rate, the expasionistic ability also gives a player better odds at exploring goodie huts. How much better? If it's good enough to negate the possibility of babarians, it's not a half bad ability. It can be downright too powerful.

[tniem]

I am under the belief that expansion is one of the better abilities.

Are the abilities balanced? I would hope so. I hope they have tested them enough. But if they are still fideling with the atributes here a month and a half before release than they haven't had time to teach the AI to use the attributes and the game could use some more time in the oven.

[d_dudy]

expansionist sounds good off the bat but it's scientific that's gonna rule. especially for peaceful players. religous seems kinda week, all it's gonna do is make it easier to keep your people happy. no anarchy is kinda week.

so, i think scientific is the best along with militaristic and industrious

[Tarquinius]

I agree with you d_dudy, that Scientific and Industious are really good abilities, but Militaristic is one of the weaker ones IMO.
Its first advantage is more chance of a battlefield promotion. That is quite useless, because if I play agressively, then I build a Barracks in each city, so I would have veterans automaticly.
The second advantage (less costs to build miltary improvements)
sounds OK to me, but not better than other advantages.

Religious sounds weak indeed, but commercial looks fine to me.
Commercial and Scientific sounds as a terrific combo to me (less corruption means more science, and the science can be boosted by cheaper science improvements)

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Tarquinius
Militaristic is one of the weaker ones IMO.
Its first advantage is more chance of a battlefield promotion. That is quite useless, because if I play agressively, then I build a Barracks in each city, so I would have veterans automaticly.

Civ3 has three leevels of morale (regular - veteran - elite) and also 'great leader units' that are sometimes spawned when an elite unit wins a battle. I guess that barracks will produce veterans, while you actually will have to fight (and win) to get elite units. So, the 'militaristic' ability may be quite a good choice for agressive players.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I think that any civ who has both Commerce and Scientific is way too strong. Commerce means that they get 1 more trade per square which already has it. More trade, faster new techs. The Golden Age also adds 1 more trade per square which already has it. A scientific civ also has a faster tech discovery rate too.

[The diplomat]

I think that part of the balance comes from the fact that most attributes only really have an impact later in the game. For example, "commercial" gives the civ extra commerce in the city center, lowers corruption, and starts with alphabet. Well, when you start the game and you only have 1 city, the extra commerce in city center is not going to make a big difference. However, later in the game, when the civ has reached a dozen cities, then the extra commerce will really make a difference.
Since the attributes only really make a difference later in the game, it gives every civ an equal opportunity to develop and gain a good starting position. By the time you have become a well developped civ, you should be able to counter whatever the other civs throw at you. In this they are balanced.
The "expansionist" attribute is the exception. It is only meaningful at the very beginning. Pottery will give the civ granaries which will give the civ better pop growth. The scout and the better goody huts really only help in the beginning of the game by giving the civ an unparalled opportunity to get ahead early. If I use my scout properly, I can seize goody huts and get free tech, extra gold, even a free city when other civs encounter the unfortunate barbarian invasion. "expansionism" could really give a civ a great start but that is all it does.

If civs only got 1 ability then I would have a problem with "expansionism" being the only "early" ability. It would not match well against the other "late" abilities.

However, each civ get 2 attributes not 1. The second ability can compliment the first one, and reduce any differences. It also increases the odd that another civ will have at least one ability the same as me. This reduces any unbalance because we now share one ability.

So, I think that civs are purposely given 2 abilities to reduce any potential unbalance of a single ability!

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
Commerce means that they get 1 more trade per square which already has it. More trade, faster new techs. The Golden Age also adds 1 more trade per square which already has it. A scientific civ also has a faster tech discovery rate too.

According to civ3.com,

- 'Commercial' means 'extra commerce in the city center',
- 'Scientific' means 'reduced science improvements cost'.

I´d be glad if you´d share your source of information with me.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by d_dudy
expansionist sounds good off the bat but it's scientific that's gonna rule. especially for peaceful players. religous seems kinda week, all it's gonna do is make it easier to keep your people happy. no anarchy is kinda week.

so, i think scientific is the best along with militaristic and industrious

religious improvements will also add culture, so the "religious" ability does more than make your pop happy, it also helps culture. And, from what we know culture will be a significant part of the game now.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by The diplomat
Notice that there is no "militaristic" and "commercial" civ. Since units are supported nationally by gold, giving a civ more gold would only help them be even more powerful militarily. This is why you can't have civ that is both "militaristic" and "commercial". It is too powerful. Notice again that there is no civ with both the "scientific" and "industrious" abilities. The ability to build improvements faster would make the "scientific" ability too powerful.

Before the latest developer update, the Persians were a militaristic/commercial, the Chinese a scientific/industrious civ. Moreover, whereas now the Germans are militaristic/scientific, there was no such combination in the first place, and everyone seemed to agree that it would have been way too powerfull, anyway.

diplomat, I agree with your thoughts about the 'expansionist' ability (that it is only useful in the early game), but let´s scale down our speculations about balancing this part of the game. I doubt that we have already seen the version that will go gold.

edit: the text passage I quoted stems from diplomat´s 21:41 post, which he has edited since then.

[kolpo]

I actualy think that militaristic and religious is a good combo. The ability to change as much as you want between democracy and communism is a dream for the imperialistic builder. Most warmongers will have culture problems but with the cheaper religious buildings won't that be as big aproblem as for other civs, this means also that there will be less revolts in cities, and you can stop revolts fast because you can buy religious buildings cheap if needed.

Armies sound extremely powerfull and because miltaristic leaders promote faster will miltaristic civs get mor leaders to build armies! More armies that's the real benefit of militaristic civs, combine extra armies with free government switching and a decent culture rate and you can see why this is the best combo for the imperialistic builder!

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by kolpo
I actualy think that militaristic and religious is a good combo. The ability to change as much as you want between democracy and communism is a dream for the imperialistic builder. Most warmongers will have culture problems but with the cheaper religious buildings won't that be as big aproblem as for other civs, this means also that there will be less revolts in cities, and you can stop revolts fast because you can buy religious buildings cheap if needed.

Armies sound extremely powerfull and because miltaristic leaders promote faster will miltaristic civs get mor leaders to build armies! More armies that's the real benefit of militaristic civs, combine extra armies with free government switching and a decent culture rate and you can see why this is the best combo for the imperialistic builder!

Very true. But "militaristic" and "industrious" is right up there too as a dream for warmongers. You get a strong army plus the ability to build the army faster!

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by The diplomat


Very true. But "militaristic" and "industrious" is right up there too as a dream for warmongers. You get a strong army plus the ability to build the army faster!

quite.

but i think expanisionist/militarist would be a bit better

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Lockstep

I stand rebuked. I was just writing off the top of my head. I should have said something to that affect

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by UberKruX


quite.

but i think expanisionist/militarist would be a bit better

The great thing about expansionist/militaristic is that you could probably go for a total conquest right from the start and never look back. Use the goody huts to give yourself a great head start. When your first scout finds other civs, immediately send your military to beat them up before they have a chance to get stong. Get yourself on a roll and never look back.

The truth is that I just love these special abilities because every type of player can see something really cool in any of them! Every different type fo player can find a combo that suits them like a glove!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by UberKruX


quite.

but i think expanisionist/militarist would be a bit better

'em are the Zulus!

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
Lockstep

I stand rebuked. I was just writing off the top of my head. I should have said something to that affect

No offence, Lawrence of Arabia.

[Theben]

Extra commerce in the city center? Sounds like a new ICS problem to me.

[TechWins]

I think all of the abilities are balanced but could be of different value in different situations. If you are going to be a cultural freak then being religious will be of great value. If you are to be a warmonger then militariastic will be of great value to you. If you are to be a scientific expansionists then expansionist and scientific will be of great value to you. All of the abilities are equally balanced but depending on what method of playing you took will be of different values.

[Dimorier Maximus]

Originally posted by Theben
Extra commerce in the city center? Sounds like a new ICS problem to me.

The only way to stop ICS is to limit the number of cities any one civ can place to a certain number, say 25. Otherwise people will keep putting cities, and putting them close.

Wait, there is another way I just thought of, and I think it is much better. Simply don't allow anyone to place a city if it overlaps with any other cities in more than 3-5 squares or something like that.

As for me, my favorite combo is the industrious-commercial one-two punch. Extra trade and production in the city center, faster working workers, lower levels of corruption, and I start with the Alphabet and Masonry. French, here I come!

[Sandman]

Scientific sounds much too strong.

Three free technologies.
Cheaper libraries, universities and labs.

And don't scientific improvements generate culture as well?
Not to mention a headstart at building wonders.

[saracen31]

Scientific sounds the strongest to me - suits my style of play great.

[War4ever]

so far those indian war elephants are looking nice to me .... being a warmonger and all while you scramble for resources , the indians will be crossing the alps

[Steve Clark]

Are any of you concerned that chosing a civ to play, with its predefined attributes, will limit strategy and replayability?

Are any of you concerned that any of the AI civs, with its predefined attributes, will become predictable?

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I Civ Specific Abilities

Militaristic

Any militaristic Civ gets either Warrior Code or the Wheel. That means that they start off with good defense (archers) or good attack (chariots) In war, their units will quickly gain status. Although they get an improvement reduction cost for military buildings, there aren’t a lot of them (barracks, city walls, SAM…) This leads me to think that this is on of the least useful Civ specific ability (CSA)It starts affecting your units promotion right away, but the only real time that this is useful is during war (when your units are quickly promoted) and during peace after Nationalism (since nationalism means that you must choose your unit readiness, being at peace will still mean that your military buildings will cost what it would take at the middle setting, assuming that there are 3 settings.) The militaristic Civs are the Aztecs, Germans, Romans, Zulus, Japanese and Chinese. Could be interesting to see how the Chinese and Japanese fight it out. The Chinese have and early UU and could do enough damage to make the Japanese fall far behind. But if they fail, then Japans later UU (probably Samurai) would then have the advantage.

Commercial

Any city who belongs to a commercial Civ will get extra commerce in its city center. Even though it is not specified, it probably is not more than +2 trade. The lower corruption helps keep the profits easier, especially in early government forms like tyranny and monarchy. Alphabet is one of the most important techs to get at an early age. It opens up a lot of other things. The commercial CSA of any Civ will most likely start working very well in the Middle Ages/Renaissance, when most of your cities have marketplaces, and you have quite a few cities too. More money in the coffers also signifies a larger standing army, so a commercial Civ can have more soldiers but spend less on upkeep than another Civ proportionally. Since your commerce is pooled nationally, the more cities you have, the more global commerce you have. Commercial Civs will always seek to expand towards resources. The commercial Civs are the English, French, Greeks, Persians, Indians.

Expansionist

This is probably one of the most rewarding CSAs that there are along with commercial and industrious. The advance of pottery means that you can grow your cities faster and helps protect the grain. You start with a scout, which is probably the equivalent of a civ2 explorer. Also, you get lots of good goodies from the barbarian villages. Now, in my book, barbarian villages does not mean huts. It means that you have to fight to kill the barbarian encampments. From that I guess that you could plunder some stuff. All by itself, the Expansionist CSA is not that good. But when its coupled with anything, it becomes a force to be reckoned with. The usefulness of the affects of expansionist decrease in time. The expansionist Civs are the Iroquoi, Americans, Russians, English and Zulu. Both the Americans and the Iroquois are expansionist. It should be an interesting game when you play on the real world map.

Scientific

Probably one of the best CSAs, a scientific civ starts out with Bronze Working. This means that right off the bat, they have a great defensive unit, the phalanx. Each science building costs less to build and at the turn of each age, they get a free tech. This might be a tad overpowering, except that maybe militaristic Civs will steamroll these guys. The affects work during the whole game. After nationalism, during war time, the cost of normal peach buildings increases, but a scientific Civ can still build science buildings for probably the same price as a non scientific Civ at peace. The scientific civs are the Russians (shouldn’t be here, should be militarists. That would make for an interesting game against the Germans.), Germans, Greeks, Babylonians, Persians.

Religious

My first thought about this CSA was that it sucked. My second was that it was good. It gets quick, early easy culture with ceremonial burial (temple) and all religious buildings cost less to build. This means that this gives a lot of quick culture which is essential for a quick start and a quick grab at a bunch of resources. No anarchy between governments is not that much of a bonus, unless you are constantly changing forms of government. This CSA affects you throughout the game and it’s a pretty solid one at that. The religious Civs are the Aztecs, Iroquois, Egyptians, Babylonians, Indians and Japanese.

Industrious

This ranks among one of the best, with commercial, in my mind. Your workers work quicker and complete tasks a lot faster. Your city center gets extra production (probably not more than +2) and you start with Masonry. Coupled with extra production, you can quickly build city walls and protect your cities at a very early age, while your waiting for your population to get to 3 so you can build a settler. Since the workers work faster, your cities will also grow faster if you put irrigation in the right spot. Since production is not cumulative, this CSA is not as strong as commercial. Never less, it is still a great CSA if you want to protect your cities when they are most vulnerable. The Industrious Civs are the Americans, French, Romans, Egyptians, and Chinese.

II The CSA combos which are too strong.

Commercial/Scientific

Lets take as a case study the Greeks. They are commercial/scientific and have a UU of Hoplite

Extra commerce in the city center means that they will make more money at the start of the game. The lower corruption will also help keep more profits, especially during Tyranny. These both help tremendously at the start of the game especially since science requires money and armies require money.

Scientific buildings, especially things like libraries, etc, are cheaper and boost an already high science rate (due to the more money your collection) Hoplite almost certainly comes with Bronze Working, so the Greeks get their UU right off the bat (although it takes a while to get a colony or expand the borders,) The hoplite is a purely defensive unit, which will dominate the game until the middle ages.

To trigger a Golden Age, you need to build 1 or 2 wonders which satisfy "Commercial" and "Scientific" Already in the ancient age, there is the Colossus "+1 trade in squares which already have it" and "Great Library" (for any 1 tech which 2 Civs have...) So, that means that during the Golden Age, the city center will be producing +2 Trade, the surrounding terrain will have +1 trade, and less corruption

As you can clearly see, this gives huge advantages to the Greeks. Now, this may well be balanced out later in the game by other Civ's specialties, but I think that they may get a too big of a lead which will be insurmountable.

Commercial/Industrious

Lets take as a case study the French. They are a commercial/ Industrious Civ who’s UU is probably some sort of knight.

Extra commerce in the city center means that they will make more money at the start of the game. The lower corruption will also help keep more profits, especially during Tyranny. These both help tremendously at the start of the game especially since science requires money and armies require money. More cities means more commerce since its pooled nationally.

Faster workers and Masonry means that they will have good defense at the beginning of the game. Extra production means that every thing that they build will be built quicker. With their large coffers and quicker productions, the French can get lots of science and have a big standing army. More production also means faster improvements like temples, which increase your culture and expand borders.

The way it looks to me, this is also too strong. Maybe it will balance out later, but I would never play the French. Its too easy.

III CSA combos which didn’t make the cut

Militaristic/ Commercial

This one is obvious. Since you get more money from the extra commerce, and you have faster promotions, this would lead to a very large army very quickly.



Scientific/ Industrious

Hmmm. This one is less clear … maybe its cause with the extra production and reduced science building costs, it would be too easy to build these libraries. So then why do they have Religious/ Industrious

IV Went the Day Well? *

I am a Civ purist. When Firaxis wanted to implement UUs I was completely against it. I wanted to be able to mold my Civ to whatever abilities I wanted. I wanted special units, but I wanted to be able to research them as Minor Techs. What Firaxis wants you to do is put you in the feet of another ruler, with all of the historical parameters which were stacked for and against him, and see how you can do. For me now, this is fine. I think that the CSAs are well balanced and I’m glad that they caught the Militaristic/Commercial problem

*With apologizes to Len Deighton, author of Blood, Tears, and Folly.