A few words about pirate-copying Civ-3

[Ralf]

Most of us have occasionally bought full-price games on impulse, just to realise the mistake afterwards. I have at least 2-3 relatively fresh games on my harddisk, that I only have played a few couple of sessions. Now, what about Civ-3?

Well, a few "fans", after waiting 5 long years, now angrily declares that if way are forced to wait yet another few short couple of months after the SP-release, in order to get their hands on the MP-feature, then they had it!!!
They threaten to pirate-copy the SP-game (because they refuse to pay for a "truncated" game) - then they probably follow that up by pirated expansion-pack/MP bundle as well (because they refuse to "pay twice").

See the loopholed logic? I think thats pretty pathetic arguing.

As I see it: No other strategy-game have made such an long-lasting impact on me, as Civ-1 & 2 have. I think I have bought at least 3 legal Civ-1 copies alone (first to Amiga, then to Mac, and finally to PC), and at least 3 legal Civ-2 copies (first the original release, then an expansion-pack and after selling it all, I bought the Ultimate classic collection bundle again, 2-3 years later).
I have enjoyed other games, yes. But Civ is special (although I admit; the old Civ-versions have now been played-to-death, beyond recovery).

Most core-fans have also contributed hundreds, yes thousands of replies (with fun overshadowing the work) in this and other forums. Now, near "the end of the tunnel" - shall we reward it all by rambling about cheapskate pirate-copies of Civilization III? The updated version of a game, once rewarded "Best game of all times"?

I dont thinks so! I have spent too many hours thinking around and about this damn game-update. It certainly wouldnt feel right at all. I will buy fully legal copies of Civ-3 and its expected expansion-pack also. Being cautious and reading the reviews first, is one thing. But If you want to play it - play it legaly.

[Robert Plomp]

I live in europe, thus as soon as it's released in the US I'll try to download it from a warez server.
Then I'll buy it when it'll be available overhere.

I did the same with CtP and CtP II and SMaC.

I downloaded ToT from a warez site, and reported it to Microprose, then they sent me a free copy to say thanks for informing them about the leak

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I downloaded ToT from a warez site, and reported it to Microprose, then they sent me a free copy to say thanks for informing them about the leak

Heh, maybe that's why they went under.

[Bay Skipjack]

Ralf, you are so correct!

There are no acceptable reasons to not pay for the game once it becomes available, either online or in the stores. This means those residing outside the U.S. are put in a bit of an ethical dilemma, since official release is invariably later for the rest of the world. This is somewhat unfair, but would be difficult to amend, logistics and all. Hopefully Infogames can get off their tushes and get official copies released quickly.

ANYONE ANYONE who dosen't purchase the game is just a common thief IMO.

[Shadowstrike]

So if were out of cash and dont buy the game, or download it, we become thieves? This logic is most puzzling.

[Mahdimael]

As a matter of fact, yes! When you take something that doesn't belong to you or that you haven't paid for, you actually are stealing!

I don't have enough cash to buy that corvette I want...fortunately, I can just take it and drive it until I do have enough money for it.

[Bay Skipjack]

Your right Shadowstrike, I wasn't clear enough

ANYONE who deliberately choses to play a pirated copy of a game, rather than actually purchase it, is a common thief

I gather from the tone of your post you were joking, but all joking aside, this topic IS kinda' important, don't you think

[red_jon]

If it is released here more than 3 weeks to a month after the US, I suggest the Europeans download it

[General Ludd]

It isn't theft, it's just ripping Firaxis and Infrogames off. Software isn't a physical object that you can steal from someone. If you download it, you aren't taking it away from anyone, you are just geting it with no cost to you or the company.

As an example, say we had the replicators from Star Trek you'd be able to get an infinate amount of food from it, does that mean that you are stealing from Farmers, simply because they are no longer geting paid?

But, that would of course lead to farmers becoming obsolete and the public being stuck with the same ol' replicator gunk.

[tniem]

How about the rules of fair use and evaluation purposes?

I believe it is legal to download a full game and play it for up to 24 hours as evaluation. Without a demo it might be important for people in the community to give it a try.

[Provost Harrison]

3 weeks RJ? More like 3 hours for me. I will buy it when it becomes available, but I will have the game as close to it's first release day as I can, one way or another. And if an MP costs extra money to add on, I will download that too, unless it comes on a pack with considerable additions to the original game (new civs, etc, etc)

[Deity Dude]

"ANYONE who deliberately choses to play a pirated copy of a game, rather than actually purchase it, is a common thief "

Agreed. But, would you agree with the following statement:

"ANYONE who takes money under false pretenses is a common thief"

If so, then Firaxis is a common thief. I have no interest in playing SP. I read articles talking about how MP was going to be an integral part of the new game. Based on this info, I pre-bought 2 copies of the game and had them next-day air shipped to myself and a friend as a present. Total cost - over $120.00.

I will feel totally cheated if this rumor is true. Someone made a comment about a Corvette. Well I just paid for a Corvette and got a Chevette.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by tniem
I believe it is legal to download a full game and play it for up to 24 hours as evaluation. Without a demo it might be important for people in the community to give it a try.

Nobody can stop you from downloding a warez-copy, if you know where to find those. But treat it as a temporary Civ-3 demo only. Then go out and buy yourself that grand Limited Edition. You get that manual + designers notes (Im really curious what they have to say for themselves) + other cool stuff. You have invested almost 1200 replies on the Civ-subject, so I believe you dont look at Civ-3 as just another game-update. If it can deliver - then a legal Civ-3 is worth the money, many times over. Dont you agree?

[Bay Skipjack]

Oswald-
You even admit it's "ripping" Firaxis and Infogames off! Would you agree that the information on your hard drive can't be stolen? It isn't an object, can't be held, essentially occupies no space, has no real mass.

Diety Dude-
If I were you I'd be pissed too, but nobody ever promised that MP would be included, though I think we all agree that it most defiantly should be - that's why we all assumed it would be. You know what they say about assuming - it makes an a** out of u and me As to the Chevette, at least your insurance rates will be way lower

[d_dudy]

if they'd give us a demo they'd have a lot less to worry about from pirating

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Bay Skipjack

If I were you I'd be pissed too, but nobody ever promised that MP would be included,

If "being an integral part of the game" = "not included" you and i speak a different language

[CobraA1]

BTW, by downloading or copying illegal versions of CivIII, you are driving the price up. Did anybody stop to consider that? If they can only get a few copies out, you can bet that future prices will be higher! The cost of distribution is not free.

Thief or no, you are NOT doing the creators of the game any favors. You're saying - with your pocketbooks (or lack thereof) - that you don't care to fund present and future games.

So I guess you don't want a Civ IV, do you?

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Bay Skipjack
Oswald-
You even admit it's "ripping" Firaxis and Infogames off! Would you agree that the information on your hard drive can't be stolen? It isn't an object, can't be held, essentially occupies no space, has no real mass.

'admit'? I was giving an objective opinion, I wasn't trying to justify warez, nor was i saying that they are the devil.

But anyways, no. Information from my hard drive can't be stolen, it can be copied, but I'll still have it. (Although, I suppose if someone deleted it afterwards that'd be similiar to theft... but we aren't talking about that)

[eNo]

Software piracy is theft. It's just theft of intellectual property instead of physical property meaning the details are a little different but it's still stealing. Think about the expression: "That guy stole my idea!".

They call it piracy for a reason.

[Fiil]

Originally posted by Osweld
It isn't theft, it's just ripping Firaxis and Infrogames off. Software isn't a physical object that you can steal from someone. If you download it, you aren't taking it away from anyone, you are just geting it with no cost to you or the company.

This must be one of stupidest statements ever, if you're not only trying to provoke a reaction, Osweld!

Software is basicly knowledge or know-how, it's an idea like eNo wrote - and ideas are one of the most priced commodities of the world!

If you know anything about economics, then you must know that there is allways basic costs and variable costs. This means that if Firaxis/Infrogames sells nothing it's still gonna cost them something. Game development isn't without costs!
This is what you pay for! You pay to support the people at firaxis/infrogames, they spent a lot of time making the game, now they wanna get paid so they can make more games!!

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by eNo
Software piracy is theft. It's just theft of intellectual property instead of physical property meaning the details are a little different but it's still stealing. Think about the expression: "That guy stole my idea!".

They call it piracy for a reason.

Hm, well I have always considered that intellectual property stuff to be a load of crap.

I guess It's just a matter of opinion.

P.S. It's funny that you mentioned the expresion "that guy stole my idea" I've always hated when people used that expresion. I mean, I really don't underdstand how you can 'steal' an idea. Or the obsession people have with taking a claim to a specific idea or concept.

[CobraA1]

Originally posted by Osweld



Hm, well I have always considered that intellectual property stuff to be a load of crap.

I guess It's just a matter of opinion.

P.S. It's funny that you mentioned the expresion "that guy stole my idea" I've always hated when people used that expresion. I mean, I really don't underdstand how you can 'steal' an idea. Or the obsession people have with taking a claim to a specific idea or concept.

You may call intellectual property "a load of crap," but my argument still stands - they still make $0 from people who don't buy the game

To quote myself:

Thief or no, you are NOT doing the creators of the game any favors. You're saying - with your pocketbooks (or lack thereof) - that you don't care to fund present and future games.

[yin26]

First: I want Firaxis to make lots of money so they continue to evolve as a company.

Second: I also want Firaxis to take the fan's position seriously and deliver on promises or clarify previous statements (or especially LACK of statements).

If the second item is not handled properly, I think the first will suffer. There are many ways besides a free download that Firaxis can see problems with its profit margins:

1) Bad PR, which only fuels people's worries and helps to spread bad word-of-mouth;
2) Bad press...the 'official' bad word-of-mouth (wait till reviewers latch onto stuff like no demo, only 8 playable civs at once, no public beta even though one was hoped for, and, possibly, no MP out of the box, etc.);
3) 1+2 = People borrowing the game from a friend first to try it;
4) 1+2 = People deciding to wait and NOT buy the game on release day;
5) 1+2 = People deciding to try a warez d/l first to see if they like it;
6) 1+2 = People deciding to try a warez d/l knowing they'll never buy the game no matter what.

Frankly, the #6 are punks. I think we all agree. If you d/l the game and end up liking it, then you must by all means go to the store and buy it!

However, #3-5 represent, in my opinion, the real enemy for Firaxis. In general, I think people are good and law-abiding. But when given enough reasons to doubt, be it through bad word-of-mouth, bad press, previous bad experience with this market, etc., people will naturally be cautious.

And it is that caution that will hurt Firaxis many times more than a group of lamers who would never pay for the game anyway.

And it is that caution that Firaxis SHOULD have been trying to overcome these many months with much much better PR.

If you ask me, people SHOULD be cautious and NOT spend full price on Civ3. That is a reasonable, legal way to send a message that: Hey, Firaxis...you'd better treat your fans better next time around.

[Fiil]

Hey that Newton guy is nothing special, after reading his explanations an checking his evidences I can do everything he could - even more!
Phhh, of cause I know the theory of gravity; it's simple!! If I lived at that time, they could have just asked me!!


Why pay scientists, they don't make anything physical?

Why even pay teachers when they have taught me something - I could have thought of that myself!


This may come as a shock but before you can build a television (physical stuff) you would have to think of a way to invent it (intellectual stuff)!

I am a student now, when I'm done I'm gonna have a job where I don't create anything myself, but I'm gonna think of a lot of things for others to create - of cause they could just think of it themselves!

[korn469]

I agree with you on this Ralf, someone mark this down

If you want to play civ3 then buy it, but if you aren't sure yet hold off on buying it!

It is possible (doubtful though) that Infogrames and Firaxis will release a demo for Civ3 after the game comes out, and time considerations are a little bit leess stringent. There will also be a number of reviews from both game sites and people on Apolyton. If I buy civ3 (i will unless i hear something else that is really bad...like no improvement to the nuke model at all) I will give it a brutally honest review. I won't pull any punches either way, and I will look at both its highpoints and its flaws then try to come to a honest conclusion for the player.

Wait till a patch or two comes out, and just see what the general attitude is. We all know that the first few weeks will be mostly hype, so give it a month if you aren't sure.

If on the other hand you are a multiplayer and this whole thing about MP turns out to be true, then don't buy the game till they release MP. This will hurt them in the short run, and they will think twice about releasing multiplayer late. If it turns out that you have to pay for MP later on, then be a man, suck it up and DON'T BUY THE GAME! There are a number of other strategy alternatives, both commercial and independent.

Empire Earth
Age of Mythology
WarCraft 3
EU2
MoO3
Star Wars Galaxies
Freeciv
Clash of Civilizations
Manifest Destiny

Those are just a few titles that you can spend your time and your money on. Support the developers that support the fans.

[Skanky Burns]

Fill, very nice and sarcastic Maybe Osweld will learn something from it - that stealing doesnt always involve physical things.

Osweld, what happens when someone 'steals' your credit card numbers?? Would that not be theft, because they didnt take your actual physical credit card?? Or when they used the numbers to buy stuff?? There wouldnt be any physical change to anything, you would still have your bank account... If your thinking "but thats different..." it isnt. By "stealing" intellectual property, you are reducing the original owners ability to make money from that idea.

And now for the warez topic:
People who download the game and never pay for it suck. Plain and simple. It just means that us honest people have to pay more, Firaxis has less money to fully develope their games, and everyone will whinge when some aspects like MP cant be developed on time. I do support d/l for evaluation purposes in the absence of a demo, provided the person then deletes it or buys the game.

If the game isnt available in Australia soon after initial release, i will also d/l it. Before you get upset with me though, ive already pre-ordered the game (LE, i like the tin). Essentially, ive payed for the lisence to play the game, so if i get it earlier than infogames can get it to me, it still doesnt affect anyone (except me).

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Osweld, what happens when someone 'steals' your credit card numbers?? Would that not be theft, because they didnt take your actual physical credit card?? Or when they used the numbers to buy stuff?? There wouldnt be any physical change to anything, you would still have your bank account... If your thinking "but thats different..." it isnt. By "stealing" intellectual property, you are reducing the original owners ability to make money from that idea.

Money is a physical object though, if someone else spends it, you lose it.

As for Fiil, either he is completely missing what I'm trying to say, or I'm completely missing what he is trying to say... or both.


But anyways, I thought we already established that it's a matter of opinion. Obviously you think differently about the subject then I do.

[Bay Skipjack]

Oswald-
If that were true and it was simply a matter of opinion this would just be idle chit-chat, but it's more than that.

What you propose to do ~pirate software in bad faith (I agree with the idea that using warez is not inherently evil, and can be used in good faith)~ does harm to the whole community , not just the software companies and their investors.

If I have misconstrued something in your previous posts, I apologize in advance. But damn, like Yin said, that sucks!

[isaac brock]

Money is not necessarily a physical object, especially with a credit card. When you have a bank account, you don't have a seperate vault for your own private money. The bank records that a certain amount belongs to you, but a trade can be made electronically, and you won't lose physical money if someone hacks into it and manages to steal 50 bucks.

Firaxis is losing money when you download warez. you are depriving them of the money they would get if you would actually buy the game. you don't see it that way, you feel that if you can get it free without shoplifting, its okay. Believe it or not, game designers do not recieve very much for their creations. Do you realize how many people are working on this that are expecting money? Do you realize how much goes to the producers, who have not created the game and are simply pimping firaxis for what their worth? Firaxis is NOT the enemy. I guarantee the limited edition is the idea of infogrames, not firaxis.

I suppose working on a game for two years straight is no reason for them to receive paycheques. Don't buy the game if you feel they must be punished. To say it is not worth money then downloading it and enjoying the single player and subsequently multiplayer is selfish, childish, and hypocritical. Anyone who downloads a warez version of civ 3 is without my respect.

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Osweld
Money is a physical object though, if someone else spends it, you lose it.

Money (in credit cards, bank accounts, etc) are just numbers in a banks mainframe somewhere. Hardly physical.

And by stealing a game rather than paying for it, Firaxis loses money (or whoever produced the game).

The whole point of capitalism is that people reward others who do valuable things, by giving them money. You want some food, you pay a farmer for growing them. You want to be entertained, you pay a programmer for writing it. In both cases, you are paying the provider for their effort and knowledge.

The point we are trying to get across is that "intellectual" things are as valuable as (generally more valuable than...) "physical" objects that can be traded and stolen.

You are right though, there is a difference of opinion