A few words about pirate-copying Civ-3

Originally posted by Ralf
Most of us have occasionally bought full-price games on impulse, just to realise the mistake afterwards. I have at least 2-3 relatively fresh games on my harddisk, that I only have played a few couple of sessions. Now, what about Civ-3?

But If you want to play it - play it legaly.

I to have games that I now wish I did not buy. But I will never steal a game.

[TCO]

That's because you're a man. (in the philospohical sense of the word...that includes males and females of various ages).

You're not a whiney little computer geek boy or worse...an above 18-year old with the morals of a 10 year old. There are a lot of gutless wonders out there.

Go NAVY! Beat ARMY!

[Gatekeeper]

Everyone:

If you acquire Civilization III through illegal means, you are a thief. No ifs, ands or buts about it. T-H-I-E-F. Got it? Good.

CYBERAmazon

[Nemo]

Everyone:

If you sell Civilization III with misguided, illegal intentions, you are a thief. No ifs, ands or buts about it. T-H-I-E-F. Got it? Good.

(sorry couldn't resist ...don't take it personally cyberamazon, it wasn't directed at you)

[Rhysie]

Originally posted by Nemo
Everyone:

If you sell Civilization III with misguided, illegal intentions, you are a thief. No ifs, ands or buts about it. T-H-I-E-F. Got it? Good.

No-one is selling Civ3 with misguided or illegal intentions. And even if they were, it wouldn't be theft, it would be fraud.

Civ3 isn't officially available yet, I am sure Firaxis will have made this matter clear by the time it is, and thus will not be selling it on any false pretenses. If you are pre-ordering the game you are making a concious decision to buy before it is finished, so you should not expect to know exactly what you are paying for... And you can always cancel the pre-order.

[Pythagoras]

Some points

1 - I think its convenient that certain "poorer" gamers can ethically sidestep the issue just to get there civ3, I say screw that. Any one of these guys if money wasnt an issue would pay for the game, but since they cant afford it they can only blab away and try to manuever around the ethics of the situation.

2 I totally think that a "napster" revolution would be cool, where people make as much art as they take in and via the internet intellectual property is gotten away with. I am totally for people giving away their art for free. Firaxis, however, has chosen not to do this, so you will pay Firaxis's, the creators, price.

3 Ive tended to notice that professionals (ie people you PAY to do stuff) can do a much higher quality job than the guy you dont pay, so maybe we should fork over the dough and let Firaxis spend the capitol on making even more games ad infinidum.

Ok and for those who say that intellectual property has no value, suppose you designed a robot and with those designs you built the robot, what is more valuable the robot or the designs? If I put those designs up somewhere on the internet on accident with no security and Joe Blow Hax0r comes by and takes them without my expressed legal permission and so now everyone has them, does that make Joe Blow Hax0r's theft, and the subsequence thefts ok? I dont think so. Even if you consider the "robot" not the "design" to be more comparable to the finished product of software its still the same. I, a company/person, made something with capitol I own (even if its a compiler and other ideas), its mine, and you will pay for it.

[Urban Ranger]

Since I am one of those who don't play MP games, I don't care if that component is available. My take is not to think whether the game is incomplete with out a MP component given that is the case, but rather judge whether you get your money's worth. If you think you get good value for the money, why would you whine about a "missing" MP part? Unless, of course, you just want the game for multiplayer sessions.


Issac Brock,

" Firaxis is losing money when you download warez. you are depriving them of the money they would get if you would actually buy the game."

That's assuming the persons who downloaded warez would actually buy legit copies of the software they downloaded if they couldn't download from the warez sites. You are also unfairly treating those:

- who merely wish to evaluate before paying real money
- who are getting a temporary fix until the programs becomes available in the local market


Skanky Burns,

"The whole point of capitalism is that people reward others who do valuable things, by giving them money."

I am not sure how it works in Australia, but in the US the copyright laws apparently were framed as an encouragement, not reward. Also you have missed completely what capitalism is, but that's irrelevant here.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Pythagoras
3 Ive tended to notice that professionals (ie people you PAY to do stuff) can do a much higher quality job than the guy you dont pay, so maybe we should fork over the dough and let Firaxis spend the capitol on making even more games ad infinidum.

You're jesting, yes?

A large number of freeware/free software/Open Source software are of extremely high quality. Compare Linux/FreeBSD/OpenBSD to Windows.

[Rhysie]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's assuming the persons who downloaded warez would actually buy legit copies of the software they downloaded if they couldn't download from the warez sites. You are also unfairly treating those:

Even if they wouldn't buy that specific game, they would buy some games. Some of the stuff they download as Warez is the stuff they would have bought. So saying they wouldn't buy it anyway isn't really valid. And its also unfair, why should these people get something they don't care about for free while we who care about it have to pay? And I'm not advocating _Everyone_ steal it as then there would be no more games. So the only fair solution is that everyone either buys it or they don't, and if they don't they don't steal it.

[LaRusso]

i will buy it. at the same time i understand (and i guess firaxians do, too) that a belorussian or bosnian kid does not have the money for the original game (if they have a computer to play on at all).
whoever has anything more than that and buys a pirated copy is an arse....

[yin26]

One thing I would like to add here that it's really a nightmare to:

1) Find a site with all the files intact...so many times you'll go through about 2 hours work just to find the un-zip won't work because of ONE missing file...then you start over;
2) D/L those files...normally split into 40, 50, 60 or more, totally a few hundred MB;
3) Reassemble them all again;
4) Only to "enjoy" a game with a great deal of things often ripped out of them (movies, various sounds, etc.).

Often people here talk about this process as if it's so easy: "Yeah, well I'll just d/l Civ3, baby!" But it's not like that at all. It takes a lot of invested time and billions of warez pop-up crap windows and sex ads, etc., just to find the path to an inferior version of the real thing.

So I have tried the warez path to testing a few games before and found it entirely unsatisfying. That's why I think the only people willing to go through all that are:

1) Kids with a high-speed connection but not much money to burn on games (their parents pay the cable bill). These might or might not buy Civ3.
2) People being REALLY cautious...again, a tough sell.
3) People with an anti-Firaxis agenga...tougher sell?
etc.

The vast, vast majority of gamers do not sit down and say: "Hell, you know what? I think I'll save some money and just d/l Civ3!"

I have a suggestion: One of THE absolutely most effective things this community can do to counter warez is to search the sites daily and report it to Infogrames. If you guys started a small group of Warez Hunters just for this purpose, and if Infogrames actually followed up (all it normally takes is a threat to sue, and *pow!* the files are off the Net), you'd be AMAZED at how much harder this will make it for the warez people.

Trust me. That's about the only way to battle it.

[Nemo]

Before I begin I want to make the following disclaimer: I have warezed some games, all were games that where hyped and praised by reviewers (black&white, sim life, and one or two others) but they were games I was unsure if they were truly great games, or merely PR'd to death. Sure enough, they were off my hard drive with in a few hours...nothing but smoke, magic and propaganda (with very few exceptions) I purchase all games I play, I think of warez as nothing more than a full feature demo. For example, after playing an unhyped but potentially cool warez game, "Thief" (no pun intended ), I enjoyed this underrated game (at that time it was still underrated anyway) so much, that I purchased it the following weekend, and removed the warez from my HDD. I do not encourage people to not purchase a game because they found it for "free." Those that have programmed, designed, managed, etc. the games deserve both a monetary return and respect for their hard work. This is merely my personal stance, you can warez, buy, steal, acquire or not acquire software in whatever means you feel fit...I don't care.

HOWEVER, there are some things to be said about the customers/corporate relationship when it comes to software...

If a company says you will get something, and you make a purchase (or pre-purchase in this case) you are giving your hard earned money to a company that made a contract with you to produce X goods for your $50 (or whatever you paid).

www.firaxis.com/civ3/faq-general.cfm:
[Q.] Will there be multiplayer support for Civ III?
[A.] You bet! We will have a variety of multiplayer options, including LAN, Internet, Hotseat, and PBEM.
...
In Civilization III, you'll find new ways to win, new pathways to explore and strategies to employ, more powerful tools to build and manage your empire, new and innovative multiplayer features and the most polished, cutting-edge look and feel ever!

By now, many people have spent tens-of-thousands of dollars pre-ordering this game. So, if a company is to take your money under false pretences, and breach this contract, while still obtaining your money...then you have been swindled out of your hard earned time that it took to produce the money, and you have been disrespected by that company. Since there seems to be no remorse on the side of the company by taking your money, or giving you a sub-par quality product for your money, why should the people respect or pay the true thief's in this game? I think warez is not a cause, but an effect. An effect of the way corporations have treated its customers. It is an eye for an eye, tit for tat, whatever you want to call it. It is a way for the Joe blow to regain what was taken from him. What? you say that you should take the legal approach and fight such hooligans in court? Well, normally I would agree, but when your representative, who appoints the judge over your case, are lobbied by this multi-million dollar corporation...or lobbied by you...who's side do you think they will side with? You? ...because you have nothing to offer in comparison. But the system is fare you say? Well, how much in federal taxes did you pay in 1999? Did you know Pepsi Co. paid $0 (Harper's Magazine, April 2001) ...yeah, but these big corporations are getting ripped off left and right by us and can't make ends meet because a multi-million dollar business lost a few sales to warez, but manages to pay little or no taxes...yeah, sure, warez is such the downfall of lying, cheating, stealing companies that stab their customers in the back whenever they think they can make a quick buck. But, it's because software piracy is so rampant that their customers don't come back...yeah, sure.

On another, more philosophical note:
When you 'purchase' software, you do not own it. You will never own it. You just paid, $50, $100, $500, or whatever for a license, for the "privilege" to use something that is not, nor ever will be yours. So...how can you steal something if you can never legally own it?

[Rasputin]

DL Civ 3 is thieving, I wont do that, but if in six months time they ask me to pay for a patch to make it MP then that I will DL. I dont mind paying for software, but i dont beleive we should be forced to pay for Patches !!!!

I would preorder Civ3 but the damn Shipping costs make it prohibitive... Perhaps we should get one of our US friends to buy the game and then ship it personally, it is much cheaper that way....

I have had friends send me gifts of CDs from US for much less postage than charged by these Companies !!!

[Kurgan]

I am spanish and I am a little bit proud of the spanish team that developed "Commando" (I do not know why, because I did not had any part on it, but is like when the basketball team of your country wins something), if this game had not the success it had, now we would not have the second part that I do not have yet, but I think is awesome. For me apart of the moral consideration of stealing, there is my own interest wanting Firaxis to earn so much money that they want to make add ons (with the spanish as a civ) and CIV IV. By the way I would like to see the people that argue that "taking" ideas or intellectual propierty is not stealing, having finished a novel that cost them years to write, and someone comes makes aq copy, sends it to an editor´, and the guy gets not only millions of dollars, but the fame etc, and then if you keep saying that it does not matter to you, because it was a group of ideas that someone else could have thought them, I will start considering your ideas under a different perspective.

[Kurgan]

I am Spanish and I am a little bit proud of the Spanish team that developed "Commando" (I do not know why, because I did not had any part on it, but is like when the basketball team of your country wins something), if this game had not the success it had, now we would not have the second part that I do not have yet, but I think is awesome. For me apart of the moral consideration of stealing, there is my own interest wanting Firaxis to earn so much money that they want to make add-ons (with the Spanish as a civ) and CIV IV. By the way I would like to see the people that argue that "taking" ideas or intellectual property is not stealing, having finished a novel that cost them years to write, and someone comes makes a copy, sends it to an editor´, and the guy gets not only millions of dollars, but the fame etc, and then if you keep saying that it does not matter to you, because it was a group of ideas that someone else could have thought them, I will start considering your ideas under a different perspective.

[Kurgan]

Sorry for the double posting, the second one is corrected.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Rhysie
Even if they wouldn't buy that specific game, they would buy some games. Some of the stuff they download as Warez is the stuff they would have bought.

Why? What makes you think that?

Originally posted by Nemo
Since there seems to be no remorse on the side of the company by taking your money, or giving you a sub-par quality product for your money, why should the people respect or pay the true thief's in this game? I think warez is not a cause, but an effect.

That's not entirely true, either. If that's true all the games on warez sites will be sh!tty ones, which is not the case.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by Rasputin
I would preorder Civ3 but the damn Shipping costs make it prohibitive... Perhaps we should get one of our US friends to buy the game and then ship it personally, it is much cheaper that way....

i checked on amazon, its about 14 USD shipping for australia. i am sure you do earn much more than i do, and (given our fanatical uhm, devotion, to civ) it really does not sound 'prohibitive'. i am not sure how much less it would cost in private arrangement.

i will probably wait till i (and this is nifty) have to travel to baltimore on dec 1. i might even get a signed copy in the firaxis headquarters.....wish i could bring yin with me for some WWF action

[gremalkin]

Stealing? I guess so..

Several people have mentioned however, games that they have bought and played only once, 'cos they're crap.. What annoys me is that you cannot return these games on the basis of false advertising. I agree somewhat with Nemo here, corporations that abuse their legal muscle to rip off the individual consumer deserve to be ripped off in return..

I'm gonna pre-order however.. After all it's only £30.00..

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I live in europe, thus as soon as it's released in the US I'll try to download it from a warez server.
Then I'll buy it when it'll be available overhere.

I did the same with CtP and CtP II and SMaC.

I downloaded ToT from a warez site, and reported it to Microprose, then they sent me a free copy to say thanks for informing them about the leak

That is Lame -note the capital L. You even seem to take pride in your despicable ways.

[Grim Legacy]

Heh. I can't help but smile at the rest of this futile discussion.

I'll do as I see fit. The hotheaded posts of some people here are of no influence at all.

Now I don't mean to say: "I'll get a warez version and never pay a dime, so there!". In fact, Civ3 is about the *only* game I would ever buy, personally. And I will.
I just mean to say that this debate will not be of any influence on people's actual behavior. A pirate will pirate and a buyer will buy. No need to get all hot about it: the pirate doesn't take your copy away, and the buyer doesn't give you any of his money.

[LaRusso]

cybershy, you are really despicable hahahhahahhahah
that microprose move is disgusting. but something amazes me even more. ....you bought CTP AFTER playing warez version? why, oh whyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

[FrostyBoy]

Weary? Download it, try it, like it? buy it, dun like it? dun buy it. The logic is simple.

Not weary? Downloaded it? Liked it? Not going to buy it? Yes you're a theif, but you probably downloaded it because you couldn't afford it; and you have contributed to Firaxis's free advertising plan, by you, the theif, telling your friends all about Civ3, which you downloaded.


=======

Moving on, I feel for Diety here, I also remember them saying multiplayer will be a part of the release of Civ3. There was no word of an addon.

Quite literally, Diety has been robbed of his money. Firaxis is now a theif.
- Diety paid for Civ3 assuming it has multiplayer, obviously had no second thought that it wouldn't have multiplayer, because Firaxis had stated before that Civ3 would have multiplayer.
Firaxis (or maybe this is all infogrames fault) later decides not to include Multiplayer with the release of Civ3.
Diety has suddenly paid for something he didn't ask for. He will not be the only one with this problem.
Maybe Diety can be happy with just SP, it still irellevant.

[Robert Plomp]

cybershy, you are really despicable hahahhahahhahah
that microprose move is disgusting. but something amazes me even more. ....you bought CTP AFTER playing warez version? why, oh

the warez version sucked and stucked and was broken in very much ways. It worked, and what I saw got my attention. I didn't play the warez version much, pherhaps a week or something.

now I think about it again, I never dl CtP 2. Just bought that one at once (got too much money on my hands I guess since I never liked CtP anyway much eventhough I gave it a big change ) (read my column about that )

[Robert Plomp]

Oh, and I dl ToT 5 days before the official release !
I wrote a review about it and provided Apolyton with much new screenshots !

It was really cool to be the very first fan in the world to have ToT !

And of course it was even cooler to receive the game for free !
I'm still thankfull to Microprose ! (and possidente of course ! he rules !)

[Rogan Josh]

Bear in mind that it is not theft if there is no other way of getting the product, or if you would not otherwise buy it, because then Firaxis is not losing any sales from your action but gains publicity if you like the game.

For example, if you live in a place where it is not on sale, you cannot buy it, so I have no objection to people downloading it. Of course, when it is released where you live you should buy a valid copy.

I remember when the EverQuest expansion pack came out, they shipped it at reduced rates to all US customers, but wanted to charge some exhorbitant price to European customers for the shipping (so that it was costing $100 or something ridiculous). Of course I declined the offer, cancelled my EQ subscription and vowed never to buy a game from Verant again. It would have been better for Verant if I had been able to pirate the game from somewhere and continue playing, thus paying the subscription and contributing to the player community.

Edit: I forgot, there is an amazing system here in Germany. Anyone can pirate games without downloading them because they can be rented from video stores. Anyone who wants to pirate a game just rents it for a night (about $1), rips it onto a CD, photocopies the manual, and downloads one of the readily available CD cracks (which I use for my ligit games too since I can't be bothered with changing CDs). I don't understand how the games companies make any money in Germany....

[Leonidas]

Downloading and not paying for Civ3 is simply theft of intellectual and physical property. You can reason around it all you want. But it is still theft.

On the other hand, if a game has been abandoned by the publisher and it can no longer be purchased anywhere, then downloading such a game is not theft.

Let me explain. Copyright is there to protect the author of the work from having someone else steal his work or ideas. It is not there to allow an author or a company to HIDE that work from the public.

Therefore, if a company no longer publishes a game, then the concept of "fair use" comes into play. That is, you can download and play the game, because it cannot be purchased, and so long as you are not making any money from it. Most games on the underdog site would fall under this category.

The concept of "fair use" does not apply to Civ3 or the vast number of games that can still be purchased. To download Civ3 and play it is simply theft of all the hard work that went into the game.

The idea of downloading Civ3 with the intention of trying it BEFORE actually buying it, does have some merit, especially since there will be no demo. This is a gray area. So long as your intention is honourable, and intend only to test the game and try it before actually buying it, then it may be a reasonable thing to do. But to download it with the intention of NEVER buying Civ3 is just plain theft.


I want Firaxis to make a lot of money and to keep producing great games. I am still hoping for the best for Civ3's release in Oct. I am confident that it will still be a superior game despite some things that may not be in the game.

If you're not sure about Civ3, then read the reviews, watch for comments about the game in these forums, and try to buy the game from a store that will allow you to return it, if you don't like it.

[Rhysie]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Why? What makes you think that?

Because if they want to play games (They must want to play them or they wouldn't bother stealing them) then they would buy them if they did not have the choice of theft. Perhaps they wouldn't buy as many as they steal, but they would buy some.

And if you are now going to say 'What if they can't afford games?' - If they can't afford to buy one or two games, then they can't afford to buy a computer which will run modern games.

[KriFos]

Have you ever downloaded an illegal mp3? used "shareware" programs more than 30 days (or whatever timelimit they set)? Ever used a crack to use limited programs a bit longer? Ever downloaded games?

Pretty sure most (if not everyone) of you have to answer "Yes" to one or more of those questions.

Anyways, piracy isnt always a bad thing. Lets say "Gary" download a game, "Black & White", which there was no demo of, how could he find out if he liked it or not. Gary then likes it a lot, and tells 3 of his friends that hasnt heard of it / played it yet, let them play a bit, and make them like it too... So the next day, Gary and 2 of his friends go by the nearest game-retailer and buys 1 copy of B&W each, the last friend didnt like it that much, so he didnt want to buy a copy.

In this case, the piracy made Lionhead sell 3 copies of the game instead of 0.

What i mean is, many of the pirated games, apps, mp3s, etc. would never sell equal to the times they have been downloaded. I sure dont wanna buy 50 bucks for a game that i dont know if i am going to like...

[tuckson]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Nemo
Since there seems to be no remorse on the side of the company by taking your money, or giving you a sub-par quality product for your money, why should the people respect or pay the true thief's in this game? I think warez is not a cause, but an effect.[/SIZE]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's not entirely true, either. If that's true all the games on warez sites will be sh!tty ones, which is not the case.

'bout the warez, I think it's often somthing like "the opportunity makes the thief"as a dutch saying says.

I a final version of some software (take Windows for instance, with which this happens all the times) is available for download and on warez cd's days before the official release, you can't speak of an effect anymore.

Nah... You can't speak of an effect anyway, someone has to make available that first (paid unless it's an employee of the company) warez version

Originally posted by Rasputin
Perhaps we should get one of our US friends to buy the game and then ship it personally, it is much cheaper that way....

Great idea, Too bad apolyton is not a native american site

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Bear in mind that it is not theft if there is no other way of getting the product, or if you would not otherwise buy it, because then Firaxis is not losing any sales from your action but gains publicity if you like the game.

So sneaking into a stadium for a concert of some famous band without paying for a ticket is no stealing either? Come on, gimme a break. The fact that you can get whatever you want usually is part of a deal between you (as customer) and the supplier. If you try to get the thing without committing to your part of the deal it's called stealing, no matter if the company feels it in the purse or not. Stealing nowadays is no longer just taking something away. There's legellay no difference in this between Firaxis and the shopkeeper 'round the corner of the street.

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
I forgot, there is an amazing system here in Germany. Anyone can pirate games without downloading them because they can be rented from video stores. Anyone who wants to pirate a game just rents it for a night (about $1), rips it onto a CD, photocopies the manual, and downloads one of the readily available CD cracks (which I use for my ligit games too since I can't be bothered with changing CDs). I don't understand how the games companies make any money in Germany....

Hey Neighbor, That's not only Germany, that's Holland too. Even our libraries rent the thing. Only instead of ripping it, I''ld rather use as the already mentioned "demo". No huge download times, no illegal warez copies. And legally 2 weeks time to try the thing out. Of course software like an OS is not available like this, but games and infotainment certainly are.

Originally posted by KriFos
Anyways, piracy isnt always a bad thing. Lets say "Gary" download a game, "Black & White", which there was no demo of, how could he find out if he liked it or not. Gary then likes it a lot, and tells 3 of his friends that hasnt heard of it / played it yet, let them play a bit, and make them like it too... So the next day, Gary and 2 of his friends go by the nearest game-retailer and buys 1 copy of B&W each, the last friend didnt like it that much, so he didnt want to buy a copy.

In this case, the piracy made Lionhead sell 3 copies of the game instead of 0.

Let's say Gary steal a car and tells... (get the point?)