Techs you don't want?

SixArmedMan · April 13, 2001, 13:26

Communism... Big time. As soon as that's discovered, guerillas, everytime you conquer a city. I like communism too, so that's forced me into building Statue of Liberty, something I never bothered with BEFORE realizing partisans were tied to communism... I don't know why they are. If you wanna' stretch it, you can say the most effective guerillas were communists but that's just way too general for my liking... Whatever.

rah · April 13, 2001, 13:55

(ONLY IN SP)
Invention.
Since it stops free techs from huts.
Drastically reduced trade bonuses.

Usually I'm so far ahead on techs, I'm not worried about the AI beating me to LEO's.

RAH

Scouse Gits · April 13, 2001, 15:05

quote:

Originally posted by rah on 04-13-2001 01:55 PM
(ONLY IN SP)
Invention.
Since it stops free techs from huts.
Drastically reduced trade bonuses.
RAH

I didn't know Invention had any effect of Trade Bonuses. Certainly, Railroad does!?

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SG(2)

Smash · April 13, 2001, 16:27

yes.Invention and Navigation are trade killers.Or reducers

War4ever · April 13, 2001, 18:58

quote:

Originally posted by Smash on 04-13-2001 04:27 PM
yes.Invention and Navigation are trade killers.Or reducers

I have noticed this as well.....

it makes no difference in the outcome of the game but i have always wondered why.

I imagine it has to due with more effective transportation making existing caravans archaic thus diminishing their current value. However new caravans and freight seem to rise in revenue so i have no clue. Maybe these techs reset the caravan bonus?

Gothmog · April 13, 2001, 21:05

I always try to delay researching Fundamentalism and I'm not likely to trade for it either. It's not that it has any bad effects, it's just not all that useful. It's a dead end tech, and I don't often become a Fundy government.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · April 14, 2001, 00:17

When I saw the 'oh no techs' thread, I wondered if this question was addressed there - since it wasn't, and I don't remember seeing it before, I'll ask it now.

I've heard a lot about Warrior Code being a bad tech, especially before getting Monarchy, and I can see that. I also have figured out, some on my own and with some help, that there are a few key techs to grab (Monarchy is #1) depending on your game style.

My question is, when playing SP, which techs do you delay researching as long as you can? Mine would be Flight (I want to keep Colossus), and Nuclear Fission (allowing AI to build MP if they steal it). Of course, those 2 are pretty obvious... I'm sure the CivII experts here can come up with more subtle reasons for avoiding a tech

Beyond that, I know I tend to avoid the tech path leading from Warrior Code until I'm out of options, and I find the path from Map Making tends to be ignored early on as well, due to other priorities.

Them's my thoughts... what's your approach?

STYOM

Six Thousand Year Old Man · April 14, 2001, 13:06

Aha... I learned something again... thanks folks! I knew Navigation had an effect on reducing trade bonuses, but I didn't know about Invention. Wonder why Invention has that effect... Railroad I can see, but Invention? Lucky for me I'm too lazy to trade much

I agree Fundy is a dead end tech... but it sure comes in handy when playing a style which, umm, involves a, ah... large number of cities. So I use it a lot

Of course, with the Statue of Liberty you'd never actually *need* to research it...

As for Railroad, I personally find the benefits (0 movement cost) outweigh the loss of HG... hopefully I have both MC and JSBC by then!

So far as Communism goes, SixArmedMan... I thought that partisans only appeared if the AI Civ whose city falls had Communism... in other words, getting Communism yourself shouldn't allow the AI to generate partisans. Should it? Anyway I want the UN too much to pass that one up.

Are there any other research-limiting techs (like Warrior Code early on) to watch out for?

STYOM

The Mad Monk · April 15, 2001, 00:20

Add railroad to the list--I like my Hanging Gardens just fine, thank you!

jake03 · April 17, 2001, 00:15

ok I never get the UN It slowes me down in killing everything I see. The two big ones I go after are gunpowerder and invinetion. Gunpowder can be huge if you get it early.

SixArmedMan · April 17, 2001, 01:43

Just tested it right now with the WWII microprose scenario. Took away communism from the neutrals and then took Amsterdam. Still getting partisans. Once ANYONE gets communism, partisans begin to appear, I'm pretty sure...

No wait... Just tested it out on the Rome scenario... I gave myself communism and then cheated to capture Syracuse... No partisans... I don't get what determines the appearance of partisans... I'm sure this has been covered before, hasn't it?

Rufus T. Firefly · April 17, 2001, 02:31

Even though I avoid Warrior Code as much as possible, I feel obliged to jump in and poing out that Warrior Code is not especially bad -- though the idea that it is keeps circulating, and the myth needs to be put to rest.

Warrior Code is "bad" before monarchy because it delays your progress to monarchy. But by that standard, any tech except the 3 needed are bad. If Warrior Code is epecially bad, it is only so for my game, because I tend to consider the Warrior Code-Feudalism-Chivalry-Iron Working tech tree to be my very last priority (which is why I probably would get creamed in Multiplayer). Warrior Code could also be considered "bad" for my game because I find it unnecessary -- what I really want are Feudalism (so I can research theology and build JSB) and Iron Working (so I can research Gunpowder), and I can generally trade for these techs when the time comes. But there's nothing inherently bad about Warrior Code.

To return to topic: The only techs I delay are railroad (and then only if I have HG but don't have JSB) and Flight (if I have the Colossus). Otherwise, I never "delay" any tech; I research each one when my game plan calls for it, and of course it calls for some earlier than others. However, if possible, I avoid altogether: fundamentalism, recycling, amphibious warfare, mobile warfare, combined arms, robotics (except in OCC), and basically any upper-level tech that isn't on the spaceship-building track except communism (I like the UN).

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

East Street Trader · April 17, 2001, 07:45

Feudalism is a mixed blessing. Much more comfortable to defend with pikemen, especially if you're in early Republican gov.t and trying to manage with one unit per city. But on the other hand you lose the considerable micromanagement benefit of the warrior, the only unit which gives rush build control over the first 10 shield row.

Later this path also threatens control over the second row as (in my games anyway) horsemen go later than the phalanx.

True Fundamentalism, on the other hand, reintroduces control over the second row (if I am remembering the cost of the fundamentalist unit correctly - it's a while since I went fundy).

Don't agree about Mapmaking. I want Seafaring (and Pottery) pretty much asap both so that I can boost early city growth (and pave the way for WLT-Ds) by building harbours and so that I can get to Navigation with the advent of caravels and the chance to build Magellan's.

OK that path has to compete with Writing which allows the diplo (security from barbs), Bronzeworking (for the Colossus), Horsebackriding (for better defence) and Currency/Trade (for the mighty camel and the chance to build a Marketplace in an HG celebrating city). But in a game that gets off to a good start Mapmaking/Pottery/Seafaring is my (post Monarchy) tech path of first choice.

That way I get to meet the A1 civs earlier when they are more pliable and they still have the essential early tech to give me plus I get to tip nearly all the huts. You have to be unlucky not to get the other needful techs by these means.
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited April 17, 2001).]

Alinestra Covelia · April 17, 2001, 16:33

Partisans appear when a civ that has discovered Guerrila Warfare loses a city to invasion.

If that Civ has Communism in addition, then the number of partisans that appears is increased considerably. Note that the Civ doesn't have to be running a Communist state for this to happen - I've seen it happen with Republic civs, and I suspect that any gov't type will support these NONE city partisans.

SlowThinker · April 17, 2001, 17:03

About partisans, see Partisans emerging after bribing a city

{advances}
{partisans}{caravan}
{}{SlowThinker}

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This is a post with keywords. See The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 18, 2001).]

airdrik · April 17, 2001, 18:49

Someone should put this together into a list and put the pro's and con's of each advance, ie:

Warrior Code: Pros: Archer unit, Cons: decreased science rate

Goingonit · April 17, 2001, 19:59

Theology. I always build Oracle for happiness, so I get hit bigtime with Theo unless I have a wonder almost done to switch to JS Bach's.

April 17, 2001, 22:10

Invention is so crucial, you need it for gunpowder , so I can for it and I also need the workshop. I really don't dealy any advances.

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Rufus T. Firefly · April 18, 2001, 02:34

quote:

Originally posted by airdrik on 04-17-2001 06:49 PM
Warrior Code: Pros: Archer unit, Cons: decreased science rate

Warrior Code doesn't decrease science rate. Nothing decreases science rate except having a lot more techs than everyone else. In fact, very few units have and "con" to them; as far as I know; aside from the ones that cancel wonders, the few that do are:

Feudalism - ends the ability to build cheap Warrior units and have a 10-shield step in rushbuilding (pace EST, above)
Invention - decreases trade bonuses, ends the ability to get tech from goody huts
Navigation - decreases trade bonuses
Railroad - decreases trade bonuses
Wheel, Iron Working, Chivalry, Gunpowder, Polytheism, Monotheism, Leadership, Conscription (and Cavalry?) - discovery of these techs by any civ allows barbarians to build the corresponding military unit.

I vaguely remember that there's also a tech -- Communism? -- that decreases the effectiveness of cathedrals, but I never build cathedrals so I don't know what it is or even if I'm right. But I think that's it.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

Scouse Gits · April 18, 2001, 04:38

quote:

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 04-18-2001 02:34 AM
Invention - decreases trade bonuses,

I only learnt this the other day. Do you know the % of reduction?

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SG(2)

airdrik · April 18, 2001, 18:01

Doesn't Guerilla warfare allow barbs to build partisans?
Also, on the warrior code decreases science rate, this is because you have one more tech, thus required beakers goes up. But this is the case for all techs.

Rufus T. Firefly · April 19, 2001, 05:41

I think Warrior Code gets such a bad rep because it's an early tech and archers are only a so-so unit; thus, few people want it that early and it's just seen as something that slows you down. I've always thought you should need Warrior Code in order to build barracks; that would change a lot of minds in a hurry!

SG - It's probably sloppy of me, but I'm just repeating what I've heard, to. I have no idea if the info about invention is even true, let alone how it works.

airdrik - Yes to Guerilla Warfare; also, Fundy allows the barbs to build fanatics, machine tools allow them to build artillery, etc. Seems like it might be easier to enumerate the things they can't build!

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder