Apolyton's "Great Library" - Page 2

SCG · September 7, 2000, 19:17

I don't plan on writing a perfectionist strategy, but I can offer a few suggestions for someone who might want to. One possibility would be to build somewhere between 2 and 24 cities and try and build every city as if it were the only city - ie follow an OCC strategy in every city, but only use 1 for the OCC wonders. Only reason i suggest 24 is that there are 24 SS parts for the minimum space ship.

Another possibility would be to build a small number of cities, and delegate a task to each city. One could be the SSC, another could be the military force (think Sparta in ancient Greece), and perhaps other selected purposes could be chosen for however many other cities you have. Perhaps 1 dedicated to producing caravans every round for example, another for engineers at certain times in the game.

Also, someone could produce a refined strategy for the SSC and minimal feeder city approach, and I'm sure there are other other thoughts as well.

Ming · September 7, 2000, 20:04

So, what would you guys like to do.
I would like to recommend to Mark that a seperate forum be set up labeled "The Great Library" under the Civ Section. If he needs to remove one of the current sections to make room, I will suggest he just combine strategy and help into one.

I think the only threads there should be locked and only include the "white paper" on the subject. All discussion for new topics, or revisions can continue in the strategy section.

So, what do people think... I'm not locked into this, and I'm open to suggestions.

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

SCG · September 7, 2000, 20:38

If the Great Library does get its own forum, perhaps it could be run similar to the submitted columns. At the bottom of the entry, there can be a link to a thread in the strategy forum for comments/discussion/revision. Possibly, one or two other threads can be singled out as the preliminary discussion threads and either linked in from the strategy thread, or linked to the GL entry. The preliminary discussion threads probably should be locked and then linked to the new discussion thread. That way, it would be easier to see what discussions have already taken place, and there would be some control over the fragmentation of the discussion since there would be only one link from the GL entry that would accept new posts.

September 9, 2000, 02:58

Great idea!!(the GL)

But dont forget to make it also in :
a) downloadable HTML format(without ads and stuff).
b) printer friedly version

Scouse Gits · September 9, 2000, 19:52

Does my draft version of "DaveV's ICS Strategy" meet your requirements? Comments welcome.

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

Ari Rahikkala · September 12, 2000, 00:15

Hmm... and if I really get the best out of myself, I could post something about how to beat the AI at Prince level

inca911 · September 12, 2000, 08:20

OK, so is anyone tasked with performing any specific actions yet? I see a lot of good discussions, and a few submissions have appeared, but has anyone identified the tasks that must be completed to move this project forward? I would propose an October 15th opening of the Library with these project milestones:

SG (the Great Librarian) compiles a first draft of Library ideas to date (without any new suggestions, for now) perhaps by the end of this month...? A working draft can then be placed online so a panel of reviewers (see below for more info) can look for gross omissions and false information. The intent of this draft is not to get everything included immediately! The feature creep on such a task would be hideous. The intent of this first draft is to encompass the solid, well-known Civ nomenclature, facts and tips to provide a document that can be used to open the Library and that can be used to establish a meaningful first format that Mark/Dave/Webmaster/??? can use to create the Library's home. I recommend that the working draft be reviewed both for content, and for Library filing topics (e.g. OCC, Trade, ICS, etc). The filing topics review should be completed by October 7. The content review should be completed by October 10, allowing 5 days for general tidying up of the word doc prior to the Library's opening.

Upon review of the first draft, Mark/Dave/Webmaster/??? creates a suitalbe home for this MSWord? document to reside on Apolyton. It doesn't need to be perfectly formatted yet, but the formatting review should be helpful. Formatting can be refined in time adding appropriate index topics and the like once the subject matter is better known. I think this task will take less than a couple of days, but a week is assigned to it to allow for some flex in intial formatting options.

A small review panel--say 5 people--is established for review of the intial library postings and for new submissions. I recommend a vote thread be started immediately to name the panel. However, the Librarian is automatically included in this panel so the voting will be for the 4 other panel members. I nominate Ming, Xin Yu, Paul and MarkG. Any objections or other nominations? If the majority of these 5 people agree to the content of a new submission thread, then the Librarian cleans up the submission for better organization and formatting and emails it for review to the panel one last time. If the majority are ok with the final version, it gets put in by Mark/Dave/Webmaster/???.

Future submissions are started via Great Library suggestions threads (as is already being done!). If enough positive votes are posted by the panel members, then the topic gets in. If enough negative votes are posted by the panel members, then the topic stays out. A timeline is placed on a new submission and is posted so appropriate review and feedback can occur in a timely fashion. 2 weeks should be appropriate.

Well, that's my $0.02. This is only a suggestion of a project timeline. If the times are unreasonable, just figure out where help must go to bring the schedule in. I can certainly help SG with document creation, review, and formatting if that area is too tight for the schedule. I think the website creation is an ongoing task for Mark/Dave/Webmaster/??? and that is a big reason Mark would be a good addition to the panel. It is critical that the persons responsible for doing the work also have the authority to accomplish their tasks. I also recommend that we decide on a person to organize the details of opening this Library on time and to perform tasks to help accomplish this goal (such as opening a panel voting thread). We can build all the consensus that we want, but unless there is clear leadership, consensus is the only thing that will get built on time! Any comments or alternate proposals?

kcbob · September 12, 2000, 08:29

quote:

Originally posted by inca911 on 09-12-2000 08:20 AM
Well, that's my $0.02.

Actually, I make it to be about $1.80 worth... minimum.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

Simpson II · September 12, 2000, 19:33

Interesting ideas floating around! inca911's suggestions sound sensible. No doubt if the panel make a decision regarded as dodgy by the majority in the forum, then people will let them know

so the element of consensus can still be maintained.. but to get the GL up and running quickly, I think he's got an excellent plan.

I might take up the perfectionist quill over the next couple of days. I've been browsing the archives, and it's obvious no-one uses an early republic.. I saw someone say that it was impossible to WLTCD in a size 5 city without HG, and no-one contradicted him.

So in the absence of any early-republican legends.. (though maybe that should tell me something, lol

)

SCG · September 12, 2000, 20:27

If you look hard enough, you'll find a few posters who said they go straight to early republic. I know because back in early june when i found this site, I did just that

I also stated that I couldn't remember the last time I had built the hanging gardens

(I've since built it in a couple OCC games) More often than not i tended to conquer (incite revolt) JSB and MC rather than building them too since i always had more pressing things to research, like railroad, which of course obsoletes the HG. Of course I've also come out and said that I wasn't planning on writing up any guides atm also, so feel free to write one

With more than a couple cities, it always made sense to me to go straight to republic for the trade - monarchy was just so trade-deficient - and with enough marketplaces/banks/stock exchanges and entertainers, I could still celebrate even without the 'essential' happiness wonders. Of course I've also since figured out that part of that was because of the unusual situations that arise when you have the double-unhappy faces

.

Since I started playing OCC more, I've taken advantage of the WLTKD in monarchy (republic trade without the pop growth) and the anarchyless revolutions to speed the transition to republic

For expansive empires though, i still tend to bypass monarchy. I always have been one to fight defensive wars, and you don't need a lot of units to do that

Ribannah · September 13, 2000, 10:44

quote:

Originally posted by Simpson II on 09-12-2000 07:33 PM
I might take up the perfectionist quill over the next couple of days. I've been browsing the archives, and it's obvious no-one uses an early republic.. I saw someone say that it was impossible to WLTCD in a size 5 city without HG, and no-one contradicted him.

I have gone to Republic ASAP in several OCC games recently, and it seems to work rather well. Especially an early Library speeds up research quite a bit. The typical order is: Warriors, Library, Republic, disband Warriors (hopefully you have found some none-units by then), Colossus, meanwhile growing to size 3, Temple (by then you'll have Mysticism), WLtCD to size 7 while building a Marketplace, normal growth to size 8 soon to follow. Hanging Gardens can be a great bonus (if you start out with Pottery, but no Bronze Working, building the HG first is almost as good), but not absolutely necessary.

The statement "no WLtCD after size 5" must refer to a situation without Mysticism.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Simpson II · September 13, 2000, 14:43

quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah on 09-13-2000 10:44 AM
The statement "no WLtCD after size 5" must refer to a situation without Mysticism.

The guy who wanted to celebrate stated he had a temple, colusseum and cathedral in the city, so I don't think that was the problem.

The other person replied that you couldn't celebrate on the odd numbers of population in republic - true in certain cases, but false in the general case.
Thanks for the OCC-plan, I'm still trying to get my early celebrations back to optimality - the rust is starting to give, though.

SCG,
Yes, this site has the effect of getting a lot of people out of republican habits. I was the other way - I virtually ICSed until I found Apolyton! I always use monarchy for a short time first, though I imagine republic as no. 1 could be done. It slows my expansion a lot, though, and I still believe strongly in expanding quickly up to a point. First out, then.. up.

12 size 30s beats 100 size 2s any day (that the 100 cities aren't all supporting cavalry.

)

Ribannah · September 13, 2000, 15:49

quote:

Originally posted by Simpson II on 09-13-2000 02:43 PM
The other person replied that you couldn't celebrate on the odd numbers of population in republic - true in certain cases, but false in the general case.

This happens on a regular basis in Fundamentalism (of course, We Love the Ayatollah doesn't produce growth, but it's still a boost). In the end, you will even need Cure for Cancer to keep the love going at odd numbers. (Finally!! A use for CfC!!

)

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Scouse Gits · September 14, 2000, 04:49

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by Simpson II on 09-13-2000 02:43 PM</font>
12 size 30s beats 100 size 2s any day (that the 100 cities aren't all supporting cavalry.

)

Ahhh, Simpson II, sadly they are doing just that with a view to a lovely empire of 100 size 2 cities and12 size 25 ones!!

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited September 14, 2000).]

inca911 · September 19, 2000, 07:45

Any activity going on? Anyone need help with anything? This is looking kind of stale to me....

Scouse Gits · September 19, 2000, 08:57

Hi Inca,

I'm trying to put together a GL article on "Abreviations, Acronyms and Glossary", but term has now started so my free time is limited. I also have made some notes on a definitive terrain article - I find the game-poster quite inadequate in this respect.

So far no recent response from the Powers That Be - appart from some supportive sounds from Ming - I guess we shall have to wait ...

If you have some time, you might start distilling your "Distilled Hints and Tips" thread ... I found it quite useful to take the 'printer friendly' version of a thread and decant that into my favourite Word Processor - this gets a cleaner start than the raw html thread.

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Bright(ish) idea

It has occurred to me that the Powers That Be might be concerned that the GLoA might reduce the traffic on these boards. Should this be the case it would be eminently reasonable to restrict access to the GL to registered members only -- just a thought, but it might have some merit.
===============

In short - the Great Library must be built - we just have to keep on pushing ........

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

Aaron Burr · September 19, 2000, 19:22

quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah on 09-13-2000 03:49 PM
In the end, you will even need Cure for Cancer to keep the love going at odd numbers. (Finally!! A use for CfC!!

)

The main use of the Cure for Cancer wonder is that the extra happy can allow you to reduce your luxuries allocation by 10%, which can then be allocated to gold or science. If you have numerous cities and a well-developed economy, it can pay for itself very quickly.

Simpson II · September 20, 2000, 13:49

Aaron,

What government do you usually run? In a wall-developed economy I usually have only 10% luxuries anyway, by the time I could research GE. Even without Bach's, which certainly helps. Do all of our cities have 3 good trade routes?

September 23, 2000, 15:05

quote:

Originally posted by inca911 on 09-12-2000 08:20 AM
I nominate Ming, Xin Yu, Paul and MarkG. Any objections or other nominations?

I nominate Smash, Rah, and DaveV.

Scouse Gits · September 23, 2000, 15:26

Can we skip the Primary Elections - and just get going?
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SG (2) Impatient!

Simpson II · September 25, 2000, 18:25

Well, finally, after much thinking about getting around to writing something, the guide I promised you is finished! I can sense you are dizzy with the excitement.

Anyway, you can express your undying admiration - or perhaps it's untimely end - in the thread Small Gods, at http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001426.html

September 27, 2000, 18:57

Well, GL is a civ thing. Is there a GL in CtP? I haven't played it.

Father Beast · September 28, 2000, 00:15

I'm sorry I haven't participated earlier. I though all you guys were doing a great job and didn't have much to contribute.
I think that Ming's idea of setting a separate forum in the civ2 section - say "CIV2 - Great Library" - would be a good and accesible place to find all this stuff. Ming or somebody would put the finished drafts there, in locked, sticky threads, available for all of us to read at will, and the WON'T GET LOST!
Which I think is the purpose of th GLOA.

Technically, this would only be a portion of the GLOA. portions could also be founded in the CTP and AC forums, eg. "CTP - Great Library", if their members could be found to make such guides. As well as future Civ3 and ctp2 sections.

So, how soon before the library walls go up and first volumes go in?

Paul · September 28, 2000, 00:34

The GL is in CTP, but not as a wonder. It is the CTP version of the Civilopedia.

October 2, 2000, 00:34

Oh. I think I might have known that from somewhere.

Father Beast · October 4, 2000, 05:57

OK, guys, we seem to have the following things available for entry into the Great Library.

"DaveV's ICS Strategy"
"Simpson II's perfectionist strategy"
"Xin Yu's size 5 strategy"
"SilverDragon's list of ways the AI cheats"
"SilverDragon's Guide to conservative expansionism"
"Statue Of Oedo - Oedo's years to change government"
"Ming's big list of player cheats"
"StrategicKing's Caravan attack strategy"
"Matthew's beginner's guide to deity"
"Drago Sinio's easy win at deity"
"link to Paul's OCC guide"
"link to The Barbarian Paper"
"Distilled civ tips and notes thread"
"Trade discussion and numbers"
"Caesar's numbers for corruption and waste"
"Bird's note on wonder shield saving"
"Adam Smith's repeated commodity trade strategy"
"story of Ming's first occ win"
"Caesar The Great's Beaker numbers"

some of these have been nominated in this thread, and a few I have found while looking for the last couple of months.
Rest assured, I will continue to dig and see what else there is to be found. Whenever Ming has a post praising it, It seems worth mentioning.

Scouse Gits · October 4, 2000, 15:35

Nice work FB. There is some interesting reading in those threads.

Scouse Gits · October 5, 2000, 07:49

?Xin's? Two Continent Trading Strategy - sorry no time to dig out link....

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

Adam Smith · October 5, 2000, 10:40

Two Continents Trading Strategy

Father Beast · October 7, 2000, 05:56

thx, Adam Smith. I'm adding it to the big list.