Apolyton's "Great Library"

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 03-20-2001 12:48 PM ST Vet Spies ... and so on ... ------------ SG(2) [This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited March 20, 2001).]

If you include vet spies, I am willing to give a helpful hand:

I suppose that if the boss (Dan or Mark or ...?) did not really wish that a very powerful and simple GL would be created, the main reason was probably that he did not wish to run the risk of 'killing' the forums.
And I agree. I love sending posts that are mostly off topic now and then when I feel like it. I love reading one page by EST saying what Xin Yu would perhaps say in one line... and so on.

SlowThinker gives a lot of good ideas about a more performing GL and he has shown that info about dips and spies COULD be stored likewise. I am quite sure that he being the boss and we working a few hundred hours would get a GL that would be a real WoW.

But I am far from sure I feel like it.
IMHO creating 2 threads, or 2 chapters, 1 about facts (how it works) with some kind of index, 1 about strategies (or hints or tricks or even brilliant pages like those written now and then by Mr Solicitor) should give good results in the right direction, without spending hundreds of hours on it and without taking the fun away from the forum.

[Edward]

This has probably already been mentioned, but a thread is one of the worst possible ways to implement the Great Library. Just try to search the forums or the archives (or this thread) for a certain piece of information and you get the picture.

apolyton.net/civ2 already has a couple of sections (like "Strategy > Hints & Tips" http://apolyton.net/civ2/civ2hint.shtml ) that are set up like hyperlinked documents so alternatives are technically feasible. Something like this or like a hierarchical mini website would be a better option.

Of course maintenance time (both to put it together and to add/edit existing content) would then become a problem for Apolyton. Perhaps someone (like jCarkey http://www.clarkovision.com/civiliza...polytongl.html ) could maintain it "off site" using input from this thread. Newbies would learn of it through the forums.

There is 0% chance of a Great Library killing the forums. New information, personalized help, and continual entertainment come from the exchanges on the forums that no Great Library could ever replace.

[SlowThinker]

I started a thread "Civ2-General/Help: Building Great Library: who will participate"?

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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette I suppose that if the boss (Dan or Mark or ...?) did not really wish that a very powerful and simple GL would be created, the main reason was probably that he did not wish to run the risk of 'killing' the forums.

I have a similar feeling: I didn't get an apropriate answer when I suggested to improve the organization of forums... Too much of information (Page 2)

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette ...that would be a real WoW. But I am far from sure I feel like it.

In my opinion you needn't be afraid of the GL.
My humble reasons are on page 3 posted March 20, 2001 11:47.

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette IMHO creating 2 threads, or 2 chapters, 1 about facts (how it works) with some kind of index, 1 about strategies (or hints or tricks or even brilliant pages like those written now and then by Mr Solicitor) should give good results in the right direction, without spending hundreds of hours on it and without taking the fun away from the forum.

How do you want to organize it?
What is the advantage of one thread over 10 or 20 threads? IMHO it would cause a bigger disorder only.

who is Mr Solicitor?

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette ...spending hundreds of hours...

IMHO you are too sceptic. My guess is that "Info: diplomats and spies" thread is about 1/10 - 1/20 of all knowledge about Civ.

quote: Originally posted by Edward This has probably already been mentioned, but a thread is one of the worst possible ways to implement the Great Library. Just try to search the forums or the archives (or this thread) for a certain piece of information and you get the picture

Did you see "Info: diplomats and spies" thread?

In fact, it is not very important if Post 1 of "Info: ..." thread will be held on the same place as the debate or not, but I suggest it: Every "Post 1" may be included into that hyperlink structure well. And any reader can see the newest knowledge or theories (not included into Post1 yet) easily.

Anyway, "Strategy > Hints & Tips" are old, stiff and they sometimes contain false information. We need "living" Hints & Tips: they must be updated and corrected constantly.
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited March 24, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

I will try to make a summary:

Optimal(?) model of GL

I think that three levels of hierarchical tree are sufficient:

Dips and spies	Info: Diplomats and Spies	Bribing cities	Info: Diplomats and Spies#bribing cities (points to appropriate part of thread)   Civ2-Strategy- city bribe question Archive Finally a way to protect cities from bribing! Archive Bribing cities - Apolyton Civilization Site Forums Archive bribe-proofing my cities - Apolyton Civilization Site Forums	plunder	....
				formula	.....
				partisan arising after bribing a city	Info: Diplomats and Spies(points to appropriate part of thread)   Civ2-Strategy- Partisans
				barbarian cities
				....
		Bribing units
		....
Happiness
Caravans
...

There should be distinguished two types of links: links into condensed threads or www-pages (like "Info: ..." or "Compostiton&quot) and links into regular threads (they are indented and have a smaller font).
Links of 2nd and 3rd level would refer into appropriate parts of threads/pages.
Some items will be under two or more sections (for example "plunder" comes into "Dips and spies" and "Combat&quot). Only one such paragraph should be maintained and hyperlinks should be used for next occurences.
Hierarchical tree should be made manually.

Some game elements may be heavily placed into tree resp. they would be placed into some deep level (for example hills; they will appear in Combat, Terrain improvement, Movement of units etc.). They should be placed into alphabetical index. Alphabetical index should be made automatically (performing a search function by the computer): every occurence of the word should be included in.

Procedure

We wil have to do two things:

a) to index (I mean both "indexes": tree and alphabetical index) existing threads
b) to compile threads to a condensed format

a)
Alphabetical index may be held over. The hierarchical tree is the first step:
Now, I prefer the idea of keywords (link: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001371-3.html) under lists of threads (link: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum20/HTML/001371-3.html). The reason is that it is quicker: you read a thread and you add one new post with several keywords.
Of course, the set of keywords must be fixed (it would be equal to the structure of tree). I suppose we wouldn't be able to project all the tree in advance: we would progressively add new keywords into the list.
If a reader would think that he has read all thread and he has added all keywords then he would add a special keyword [indexed] (or [finished]).
We should choose some abbreviations (for example [spy] for "Diplomats and spies&quot).
Maybe, in the beginning, two levels of tree would be sufficient. To index threads using three levels of keywords would be very laborious.
Unfortunately, archived threads cannot be processed this way.

b)
We should set a fixed format for condensed threads/pages so that we could move paragraphs if needed.

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited March 23, 2001).]

[Marquis de Sodaq]

D'accord, Edouard! The forums are not threatened even by a fabulous GL. What seems to motivate the interested librarians is a good source for all the knowledge within the threads. As ST mentioned, numerous threads over the same basic things get started all the time. One repository for this stuff could boost the content quality of the forums.

You are right about thread searching being rather willy-nilly. The talk about a hierarchical index stems from this idea. It might entail paring threads down to the relevant text within - in other words, making documents out of them. The discussion continues...


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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[SlowThinker]

I brought a part of discussion from Building Great Library: who will participate? :

John-SJ induced an interesting tool, the MindManager.
We could use it

a) for the table in my last post (if we will want to keep every individual condensed text together with the discussion, as in "Info: diplomats and spies" thread)

b) for all amount of the condensed text (if we want to keep all condensed text together).

I would suggest a), reasons are LINK: here

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited March 24, 2001).]

[Edward]

If the purpose of the Great Library is to provide easy access to gathered knowledge about Civ2, then IMHO what we do NOT need is an easily searchable index of all the threads. The threads are inherently long and full of repeated and unrelated info.

The Great Library should contain knowledge on particular subjects purposely (re)written for the Library.


SlowThinker,

Your initial posts in your condensed "Diplos & Spies" thread are absolutely wonderful. Great work on summarization and gathering information. While I'm thrown off by having subsequent posts beneath it, it looks like you've done a good job incorporating the changes into your main post. The subsequent posts provide an obviously located and already existing mechanism to propose suggested changes.

My hat is off to you for actually starting the Great Library (unlike I who have merely swung in midstream, spouted out criticism of the work at hand, then refused to do anything constructive myself).

I totally agree with you about the terrible state of the "Strategy > Hints & Tips" section. In my previous post, I was not trying to say that it's organization or content was good. I was trying to say that Apolyton is technically able to post stuff other than threads. (Of course, whether or not the administrators are willing to create and/or maintain such a thing is another question altogether.)

I also agree that a hierarchical "index/table of contents" (like a website's site map) is a good starting point - much better than an "index/glossary" of all words a visitor might be looking for info about.

[La Fayette]

[quote]Originally posted by SlowThinker on 03-23-2001 10:08 PM
1)I started a thread "Civ2-General/Help: Building Great Library: who will participate"?

---

2)I have a similar feeling: I didn't get an apropriate answer when I suggested to improve the organization of forums...


3)What is the advantage of one thread over 10 or 20 threads? IMHO it would cause a bigger disorder only.

4)who is Mr Solicitor?

5) My guess is that "Info: diplomats and spies" thread is about 1/10 - 1/20 of all knowledge about Civ.

6)Anyway, "Strategy > Hints & Tips" are old, stiff and they sometimes contain false information. We need "living" Hints & Tips: they must be updated and corrected constantly.(/quote)

1) Of course, I will.
2) Never mind: I think that if the SGs and Ming agree that we are doing good work the 'big bosses' will be convinced that we can go on (won't help us but won't stop us).
3) I don't consider myself competent to discuss the best organization for the GL (though I go on thinking that it is a good idea to separate facts (how it works) from strategies (how to use it at best)).
4) East Street Trader (his profile states so).
5) I agree (and I suggest that the SGs, who started the GL, and you, who have nice ideas about how to improve it, get acquainted and organize some kind of working team, with 10 volunteers or so, people like me, willing to be responsible for the ground work about 1/10 of the knowledge).
6) I agree (and I have been about to start updating and correcting, several times, but I am just as eager to play instead of 'slow thinking' as most people on this forum, and I started playing a new game instead of writing a new post).




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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[SlowThinker]

I would welcome comments to my suggested mechanism of the GL (Optimal(?) model of GL, Procedure...)

Edward,

quote: Originally posted by Edward If the purpose of the Great Library is to provide easy access to gathered knowledge about Civ2, then IMHO what we do NOT need is an easily searchable index of all the threads. The threads are inherently long and full of repeated and unrelated info.

I agree. The condensed knowledge is a goal.

But existing threads are the source for condensed threads and it is useful to sort them before building condensed threads.
Besides, I am not sure if the condensed GL will arise. If not or only part of knowledge wil be included, then a categorized list of existing threads may be useful.

If we would suppose the condensed GL will originate quickly then I would suggest to index existing threads using only the first level of civ terms (Dips and spies, Happiness, Caravans...)(See table "Optimal(?) model of GL" on this page): it would be sufficient for the purpose of building the condensed GL.
Otherwise it may be useful to fill higher levels of the hierarchical tree by links to existing threads.

La Fayette,
1)
Could you post your decision to "Building Great Library: who will participate" directly? It will increase the morale of the squad.

BTW,

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette ...the risk of 'killing' the forums. And I agree. I love sending posts that are mostly off topic now and then when I feel like it. I love reading one page by EST saying what Xin Yu would perhaps say in one line... and so on.

I supposed you will harm the GL (to post false statements etc.)...



[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited March 27, 2001).]

[Scouse Gits]

More Cities = More Unhappiness
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001279.html

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SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

Bump - we've come unstuck

[Ming]

Let me see if I can fix that!

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks Ming - for a moment I thought that Dan and Mark might want the Colossus instead of the GL!
---------
SG(2)

[SlowThinker]

I have tried to outline the hierarchical structure of civ:
Apolyton/Community: The Great Library: a hierarchical structure (link edited)

I have used {} brackets for keywords ([] brackets are used by UBB code).
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 06, 2001).]

[Scouse Gits]

Some further insights into the simultaneous use of multiple Engineers on a single square to be found http://www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum...755.html?14#14


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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Roman]

This topic is very encouraging. I especially liked the Slow Thinker's thread on Diplomats & Spies. Are you planning to make the GL easily downloadable?
[This message has been edited by Roman (edited April 07, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

Roman,
if the concept of "Info: diplomats and spies" thread (or a similar one) will be accepted, then GL will be included in about 20 threads: your browser will keep them in the disk cache for the offline work.
BTW, Slovenia, is it somewhere near Italy?

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 04-06-2001 06:52 PM Roman, if the concept of "Info: diplomats and spies" thread (or a similar one) will be accepted, then GL will be included in about 20 threads: your browser will keep them in the disk cache for the offline work.

Excellent! I might be interested in helping to build the GL, but my knowledge of Civ2 game mechanics is rather limited. Do you find out most of the information on relationships among the variables through empirical approach combined with looking for patterns, or do you somehow look through the program code to look for the relationships?

quote: BTW, Slovenia, is it somewhere near Italy?

LOL

I think most other people won't understand why this is funny to us, eh.

BTW: I heard your country suffered a lot in the civil war resulting from it's breakaway from Russia.

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 04-07-2001 11:59 AM Excellent! I might be interested in helping to build the GL, but my knowledge of Civ2 game mechanics is rather limited.

IMHO you don't need any knowledge about Civ2, but you have to know reading (and writing)

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 04-07-2001 11:59 AM Do you find out most of the information on relationships among the variables through empirical approach combined with looking for patterns, or do you somehow look through the program code to look for the relationships?

I suppose that searching through the program code would be impossible or very laborious.

[Roman]

My first contribution (should it be accepted) to the GL is contained in the "Limits to Trade" thread.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 04-07-2001 11:59 AM LOL I think most other people won't understand why this is funny to us, eh. BTW: I heard your country suffered a lot in the civil war resulting from it's breakaway from Russia.

Don't be afraid: there is at least one person (living away from Slovenia AND Slovakia) ready to smile with you.
(still I am really very happy that Praha and Bratislava both are quite far away from Sarajevo and Mitrovitsa)

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[SlowThinker]

La Fayette,
do you know the "Slovakia virus" ?

[SlowThinker]

I think that a uniform format of condensed threads ("Info: diplomats and spies" thread) would be useful.
Could you comment and suggest improvements of
the organization (color scheme (red, green, blue text), separation into first four posts, numeration...)
and
the html format (the basis of the Post 1 is a 2-column table: the first column holds numbers of paragraphs, the second holds the text)
of "Info: diplomats and spies" thread?

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 04-09-2001 06:43 PM La Fayette, do you know the "Slovakia virus" ?

I do, I heard it is the only beneficial virus in the world, as it increases intelligence.

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq See my new thread in the Strategy forum about a final combat results library entry. What I've found on that topic is that everybody and his uncle has a theory about how an aspect of the game works. Testers debate results, and finally something emerges from the cloud of dust. Even in this forum is a current thread about hit points and firepower, which has been resolved at least 3 times! All the more reason to finish the GL entry! Yet still the debate rages on. Most of the posts are speculation or somebody remembering the previous misinformation and propogating it furthur. Grrr...

you are welcomed. I am glad you know my feelings.

I suppose that every condensed thread could contain links to living threads. And we could "close" redundant threads if we will put a link to an analogous thread to the end.
BTW, see "Info: diplomats and spies" thread: To mantain Post 10 would be very tedious if there would be some traffic. It will be better to move it into a (new) thread (link in the Post 1 would refer there).

And post 3 should be renamed to "threads that were included into Post1 already".

[Marquis de Sodaq]

The thread info: Combat Modifiers and Calculation (GL) is in the CivII-General forum. Everything the collective Apolyton mind has discovered about combat calculations is there...

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited April 13, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited April 13, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

Roman,
The "Slovakia" virus doesn't increase intelligence. It increases knowledge only. But the brain shouldn't be filled by unneeded knowledge (such as knowledge about petty nations).
IMHO, Slovakia should be attached to some bigger country. Poland, or, Hungary preferably. You would just learn the Hungarian language.

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 15, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

I have got a PM from Sirotnikov:

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I think we should reformat once we create a standart look and feel to the GL. However I am pretty sure your code could be just cut and pasted and the additional designing will be applied in CSS.

I have never worked with CSS. Are they easily accessible from built-in html editors in IE and Netscape?
Don't forget that everybody should be able to edit the text easily.

[Sirotnikov]

I thought our intention is to add stuff and later close it... meaning I don't think the library should be present in these threads but some sort of an apolyton subsite with a style of it's own.

Editing that text? Well.... to gather info sure... and once a thread is closed only then we add the fancy styling. No?

[Roman]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 04-14-2001 06:37 PM You would just learn the Hungarian language. [This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 15, 2001).]

I think all languages with the exception of English should be eliminated.