OCC Rules Amendment

Smash · April 15, 2001, 18:52

How do we feel about building settlers in a size 1 city?

This is good trick if you have some gold but does not seem like it was intended.

Paul · April 16, 2001, 00:44

I have used this in the game with the rivermap, but I agree that it was not intended. I believe that it should not be allowed.

Smash · April 16, 2001, 04:14

allowed-0
not allowed-2

Mixam · April 16, 2001, 05:49

I don't play OCC but I don't think it should be allowed

Scouse Gits · April 16, 2001, 07:45

I would say no to rushbuilding, but accept a natural build with high production squares.

Do I have any takers for accepting airbases as an 'engineer upgrade' making them super efficient in the latter stages of the game?

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Winston · April 17, 2001, 09:09

No, Scouse Gits, you don't.

And I say no to building Settlers when the city's at size one as well - under any circumstances.

Smash · April 17, 2001, 13:43

ok looks it will be a no-no.Since a second city stops it,I beleive this to be correct.

no airbasing in city radius.Too easy to get the # of sheilds while still having enough food for size 35+.Mines give minerals not food.Airbases are bases for aircraft.Not fast food outlets

[This message has been edited by Smash (edited April 17, 2001).]

solo · April 19, 2001, 00:34

I've used the settler trick, but agree that it should not be allowed, because it gives the user a distorted advantage: early size 3 and early tech lead.

I happen to agree with Scouse Gits about airbases.

Perhaps a new and comprehensive list of acceptable and unacceptable tricks should be made and posted within or right under the Great Library thread. Whether a trick is allowed in posted and/or record shooting games would be decided by player voting. Let the majority rule.

This way, a newcomer (and I am still pretty much in this category) would know what is generally acceptable and what is not. For example, in my 776 landing game, I had just discovered on my own and used the caravan re-homing trick, and was later very embarrassed to discover that this "strategy" was against the rules of the game. Also from reading earlier threads on early landing topics, I had gotten the impression the many were trying for records with previous favorable starts, but I guess I was wrong about this. A clear set of rules or guidelines would be in the interest of all.

April 21, 2001, 23:21

Solo, I would agree that your 776 landing was not entirely passable by the apolyton standards, but you got the record anyway with 1056, so it doesnt matter. By the way, pauls site has a list of OCC rules, but i forgot the link. A lot of people know it, and someones gonna probably post it within minutes anyway.

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- SilverDragon, scourge of the western skies

Email me at
SilverDragon141@aol.com

Paul · April 22, 2001, 05:14

Strange, there should be a new reply here, but it doesn't show up.

Edit: but now I see it.
[This message has been edited by Paul (edited April 22, 2001).]

Ribannah · April 22, 2001, 06:12

quote:

Originally posted by Smash on 04-15-2001 06:52 PM
How do we feel about building settlers in a size 1 city?

This is good trick if you have some gold but does not seem like it was intended.

So far we have allowed this, and I think for good reason.
It is not always clear whether it is an advantage, so making the right decision is part of the player's skill.
Note that once the Settlers have been built there are several other decisions to be made as well: keep them to work the land, join the city
at once or wait til it has grown some.

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Carolus Rex · April 22, 2001, 07:25

Airbases - no way!

Settler with size 1 city - not crystal-clear as airbases, but I vote not allowed.

Carolus

solo · April 22, 2001, 22:44

SilverDragon

Yes, I have a copy printed out Paul's guide and go by it when playing OCC games, but its list of tricks which are and are not allowed only contains a few of the many that exist. I was thinking more along the lines of a more comprehensive list that would apply to games outside of the OCC competition.

solo · October 9, 2003, 12:55

Bumped so players of OCC 2003 in the General forum can read it.

Straybow · October 9, 2003, 20:56

I don't remember this at all. Musta been when I was hybernating.

I don't see this as a "bug" or something the designers didn't foresee. It is clearly a feature designed into the game, it only applies when you have a single city at size 1, and have the resources to build/rush before size 2. It must be fairly common in MP with double production.

With a food special you could wind up growing to size 2 early, shifting to shield-heavy tiles, completing a settler and being in the same position as building at size 1.

rjmatsleepers · October 10, 2003, 01:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Straybow

I don't see this as a "bug" or something the designers didn't foresee. It is clearly a feature designed into the game, it only applies when you have a single city at size 1, and have the resources to build/rush before size 2. It must be fairly common in MP with double production.

If it really is "a feature designed into the game" why does it only apply when you have a single city at size 1?

Anyway, I guess the issue is not whether it is a bug or a feature - simply whether we allow it at OCC or not. If it has been excluded in previous OCCs, I vote we maintain the status quo and continue to disallow it.

RJM at Sleeper's

Smash · October 12, 2003, 15:50

wow....you folks must be bored bumping this old thread back up

Never ceases to amaze me how this game can still attract new players.ANY game makers should force their employees to play this game for 1 solid month.If there was anything left of the people after that,they would know what makes a great gaming experience.

Grigor · October 15, 2003, 05:07

I have been a devoted user of the size 1 settler trick since I discovered that it is only possible above chieftan mode. Since the designers not only knew how to stop it but actually did so on a lower level, it seems that it must be an intended feature.

This thread seems to have been started rather a long time ago, before polling threads became common. There was an extended discussion of this in CFC last year, and it was decided that it was an acceptable tactic there. As I recall, Xin Yu had a memorable pos on its efficacy.

I will forego further use of it here if the majority so concludes.

Cyrion · October 15, 2003, 05:27

Do you mean it doesn't work on Chieftain level???

Weird...

rjmatsleepers · October 16, 2003, 02:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Grigor
I will forego further use of it here if the majority so concludes.

The emerging consensus on the OCC#2 thread is that whoever posts the comparison game can decide whether to allow it or not.

RJM at Sleeper's

-Jrabbit · October 17, 2003, 16:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Grigor
...the size 1 settler trick... is only possible above chieftan mode. Since the designers not only knew how to stop it but actually did so on a lower level, it seems that it must be an intended feature.

This seems quite definitive re intent of the programmer/designers.

Other than "OCC never allowed it before," can anyone offer a logical reason why this feature shouldn't be employed?

Scouse Gits · October 21, 2003, 06:38

Nope - my original opinion was a qualified acceptance -- now - given that it is clearly an intentional move on the part of the original programming/design team - i vote to allow it unconditionally...

rjmatsleepers · October 22, 2003, 03:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Grigor
Since the designers not only knew how to stop it but actually did so on a lower level, it seems that it must be an intended feature.

But, the same argument can be used about rehoming caravans:

"Since the designers knew how to stop rehoming caravans but actually did so on some menus, it seems that it must be an intended feature."

However, the point is not what the designers intended, but what we decide to use as our standard. This seems to be a presumption of allowing the size 1 settler exploit unless specifically banned by the person who starts the game.

RJM at Sleeper's

Carolus Rex · October 22, 2003, 04:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Straybow

I don't remember this at all. Musta been when I was hybernating.

Ditto!

Two and a half years ago already?!

Time flies... Airbases is still a no, and I can't believe I had doubts about the settler trick...

Carolus

Zenon · October 22, 2003, 06:55

It is interesting to see these discussions come up from time to time. It seems there are usually the same considerations: intended feature or not, exploit or not. IMHO, these considerations are at best helpful, but never decisive. All we need is a convention how to play together. This is even more true for an OCC, that only exists, because the community has developed rules.

Now, if the game starter has not allready set rules of his own, the only question that is important:

do we feel the need to ban a certain way to play because it spoils the game?

For settlers at size one: no ban needed

Zenon

solo · October 22, 2003, 10:20

Recent discussion in favor of permitting size one settlers has been quite convincing. I am again in favor of using this trick and sense a general consensus among active players to allow it future games.

Elephant · October 22, 2003, 11:41

It might be interesting to run a competition between several players attempting to use it and several not using it...

Scouse Gits · October 23, 2003, 05:17

Elephant - to me the beauty of the settler trick is that it is not - automatically - a Good Thing -- but rather a strategy that might at times proves useful - hence although your idea is sound - it would require a start in which at least some of the players felt that it might work to their benefit -- in my experience I have most often used this trick when I have tipped an early fortune out of a hut and can afford to rush the settler.

Stu

Sore Loser · October 23, 2003, 05:46

If you start out working on Iron, Peat or simply a forest then you're effectively giving that square a food boost, making it worthwhile regardless of hut tipping results. I think.

Carolus Rex · October 24, 2003, 04:47

Hm...

A forest is one food and two shields... A settler is 40 shields... Not counting the city square itself it would take 20 turns to complete the settler, which just fills the food box as well... What does the city square produce if you're on grassland?

Anyway, the trade-off is clear... Suppose you have a whale and peat/iron in the city radius... Without any hut money, working the whale won't make the settler come alive before size two... But sacrificing that whale early on... It would hurt...

Throw in hut money and a hut archer to disband and the settler trick looks more attractive...

Carolus