Unexpected Discovery during research!

[Mixam]

While I was researching the effects of gifts on the beakers required to the next advance, I found a few interesting things. I am not yet done my project but this was too good not to post. First off Oedo years are of importance. If you gift the ai on an Oedo year you will get the benefit immediately instead of next turn. Here is the best part:

Statue of Liberty works to decrease beakers required that turn just as it allows immediately changing governments! Bet you didn't know that.

[samson]

quote: Statue of Liberty works to decrease beakers required that turn just as it allows immediately changing governments!

I've noticed the oedo year connection to beaker count changes. But this is news.
Are you saying that SOL makes every turn an oedo year? And all oedo-related
adjustments occur immediately if you have SOL?

samson


[This message has been edited by samson (edited April 19, 2001).]

[Mixam]

What evidence I have had so far makes me believe that SOL does indeed make every year an Oedo year in every benefit it has. However more testing will need to be done. If someone can support my results I would say alot more people will be building SOL!

Edit: I wonder if you are more likely to get a gift from the AI during an oedo year? The research continues...
[This message has been edited by Mixam (edited April 19, 2001).]

[Mixam]

Also of note: When I started this research I was hoping to prove that your position on the power graph is what determined how many beakers it would take for each tech. This seems to be incorrect so far. According to this info Power Graph there are three things that effect the power graph population, money and tech. So I tested the effect of each. Only tech seems to help with your beakers and only giving tech to one civ benefits you. I have not got to what happens if that civ is elliminated yet or if another civ is eliminated. I agree with Silver Dragon in the size 1 OCC thread...

We need Civ III and fast!

[Mixam]

Sorry I seem to be posting my results as I get them instead of waiting till I am done but... I never was very organized and if I drop dead only way people will know what i find out is if I post it as I get it

Anyways seems that only one civ will effect your beaker outcome. Haven't figured out how to determine that civ yet except by giving techs till your beaker count goes down. So much easier to find out now that i know about SOL producing Oedo years every year. Results are coming much faster. Anyways you can kill off all the civs but the one that effects your beaker count without having any increase in beakers. This contradicts what some people have said if i remeber correctly. Also seems that if you kill the civ that was effecting your beakers that another will replace it. If the civ is revived as another of the same color it seems to be that civ most of the time but not always.
NOTE so far these results have been obtained with the cheat menu and I have not yet tested any of them in a real game so trust this at your own risk!

I have a policy of "no cheating". I prefer the game like it is and win it a true veteran.

[Mixam]

Archangel Masterbob: You may be a veteran and I bet you are currently better than me at the game. However I think your view of cheating is very narrow minded. Using the cheat menu for research purposes is not cheating nor is using my findings to play a better game. I would appreciate any constructive criticism you may have but otherwise don't reply to my thread.

[Chainsaw]

What other effect do Oedo years have except for immediate government change?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Mixam, please post what work you are doing in the Great Library Discussion thread, so no duplicate efforts start, and more people can become aware of the research - they may know something useful!

------------------
"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[Mixam]

Chainsaw: So far I have noticed that Oedo years are also the year that the power graph is calculated and that if you gift tech on Oedo years to the AI it will benefit you that turn instead of the next turn as it does on non Oedo years.

New finding... I think some people already know this but gifting the ai tech (one in particular) can result in a reduction of over 50% of the beakers required for the next advance. This is however an extreme case as in the ai had no tech, then you give them all the techs. This also only occurs at the later techs in the game the first few techs have a much lower difference between the maximum and minimum required beakers.

[Mixam]

Well here comes the first of my research in its final (I hope it shows up right) form. This table is for the Beaker count of each tech up to and including Future tech 12. This particular test was done on a Small map, Diety, Raging hordes, 7 civs. I will explain how later if the table shows up right. Hmmm Scroll way way down to see. Can't figure out how to fix that yet?
Never Mind i removed it for now till i can fix it

[This message has been edited by Mixam (edited April 20, 2001).]

[Scouse Gits]

Mixam -- there is a slight incompatibility between ubb code and html - to wit the way in which 'white space' is handled --
html rdeuces all consecutive white space to a single space - ubb keeps all "new line"s

In order to make your post above make a little more sense - please edit out all the new lines (carriage returns) in your html and it will look much better ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Mixam]

Ok Finally got it right. I don't know what was worse actually doing the testing or editing the html to get rid of all the new lines. Anyways these are the results for a small map 7 civs, diety, raging hordes. After all the html editing I will leave it at that. If you have questions msg me or post them in this thread. Thanks

Tech #	Maximum Beakers Required	Minumum Beakers Required	Difference In Beakers Required	% Decrease In Beakers Required
1	10	10	0	0%
2	18	18	0	0%
3	27	24	3	11%
4	36	32	4	11%
5	45	40	5	11%
6	66	48	18	27%
7	84	63	21	25%
8	96	72	24	25%
9	108	81	27	25%
10	130	90	40	31%
11	143	99	44	31%
12	168	120	48	29%
13	195	130	65	33%
14	224	154	70	31%
15	240	165	75	31%
16	282	192	90	32%
17	289	204	85	29%
18	342	216	126	37%
19	380	228	152	40%
20	520	380	140	27%
21	588	399	189	32%
22	616	418	198	32%
23	664	437	227	34%
24	672	456	216	32%
25	700	475	225	32%
26	728	494	234	32%
27	783	513	270	34%
28	812	532	280	34%
29	941	551	390	41%
30	930	570	360	39%
31	961	589	372	39%
32	992	608	384	39%
33	1056	627	429	41%
34	1088	646	442	41%
35	1120	665	455	41%
36	1188	684	504	42%
37	1221	703	518	42%
38	1254	722	532	42%
39	1287	741	546	42%
40	1320	760	560	42%
41	1353	779	574	42%
42	1470	798	672	46%
43	1505	817	688	46%
44	1540	836	704	46%
45	1620	855	765	47%
46	1656	874	782	47%
47	1692	893	799	47%
48	1776	912	864	49%
49	1813	931	882	49%
50	1850	950	900	49%
51	1938	969	969	50%
52	1976	988	988	50%
53	2014	1007	1007	50%
54	2106	1026	1080	51%
55	2145	1045	1100	51%
56	2184	1064	1120	51%
57	2280	1083	1197	53%
58	2320	1102	1218	53%
59	2360	1121	1239	53%
60	2460	1140	1320	54%
61	2501	1159	1342	54%
62	2542	1178	1364	54%
63	2646	1197	1449	55%
64	2688	1216	1472	55%
65	2730	1235	1495	55%
66	2838	1254	1584	56%
67	2881	1273	1608	56%
68	2924	1292	1632	56%
69	3036	1311	1725	57%
70	3080	1330	1750	57%
71	3124	1349	1775	57%
72	3240	1368	1872	58%
73	3285	1387	1898	58%
74	3330	1406	1924	58%
75	3450	1425	2025	59%
76	3496	1444	2052	59%
77	3542	1463	2079	59%
78	3744	1482	2262	60%
79	3792	1501	2291	60%
80	3840	1520	2320	60%
81	3888	1539	2349	60%
82	3936	1558	2378	60%
83	3984	1577	2407	60%
84	4200	1596	2604	62%
85	4250	1615	2635	62%
86	4300	1634	2666	62%
87	4350	1653	2697	62%
88	4400	1672	2728	62%
89	4450	1691	2759	62%
90	4680	1710	2970	63%
91	4732	1729	3003	63%
92	4784	1748	3036	63%
93	4929	1767	3162	64%
94	4982	1880	3102	62%
95	5035	1900	3135	62%
96	5184	1920	3264	63%
97	5238	2037	3201	61%
98	5292	2058	3234	61%
99	5445	2079	3366	62%
100	5500	2200	3300	60%

[This message has been edited by Mixam (edited April 20, 2001).]

[samson]

quote: If you gift tech on Oedo years to the AI it will benefit you that turn instead of the next turn as it does on non Oedo years.

This is not correct. I am in a game right now at 580 AD (a non-oedo year)
and I gave one tech to one ally and my beaker count immediately reduced.

[Mixam]

I also duplicated your 680ad immediate beaker change. It seemed that the years i tested followed Oedo but maybe another pattern? Anyways SOL does still work as I said on every year I have tested so far. Including years that it did not work on, b4 using SOL. This is the bad side to posting my results as I find them I guess. I hope to find the pattern now that it has been brought to my attention that it is not the Oedo pattern. I am testing as we speak and only checked here on my break. I guess i should add another warning then.

Findings so far are not concrete as shown by Samson. I am not done my research in any case but i will continue to post my findings as I get them. I will tell you when I am done and believe my findings are correct.

[samson]

Mixam -

The numbers in your min/max table show a pattern similar to what I saw using a medium map.
The formula for beakers would appear to be something like:

Beakers = TECH# X (BASE +/- various modifiers)

where:

TECH# is the number of Acquired Techs + 1

BASE starts as 10 (set in the Rules.txt) for Tech 1
and then slowly increases over the first 20 techs
until if reaches approximately 20 and then stays constant.

"various modifiers" includes your tech position relative to other civs
but also other factors, such as:

level of play, map size, number of starting civs,
the proximity of other civs' starting location(?),
the number of starting techs you have(?), and possibly other things.
Most of these are determined at the start of the game and stay constant.
However, it would be nice to know how they effect your minimum tech cost.
I know that some games (same map size, level, and # of civs) have higher
minimum beaker costs than other games, no matter how many techs you give away.

samson

[Mixam]

Samson: Thanks for your continued input. I tested the max beakers for small map three times on seperate random start maps. I kept everything I could constant. I made sure that I had no starting techs for one. Also when I was testing for the min beakers I tested 3 times also with no starting techs. I don't think starting position has an effect since the results were exacly the same. I believe that the reason starting position would effect the formula is that starting position effects the number of starting techs. By starting position I mean both the terrain and the proximity of other civs. I have not yet tested the results with less starting civs. Sorry I would have posted all the variables with my table but editing out all the end of lines in the html took over an hour and after that I didn't have much incentive. So here is a list of my constant variables:

• Small Map
• Raging Hordes
• 7 Civs
• Deity
• All other settings normal
• Randomly generated map
• Civ II Original V. 2.42
• For Max beakers all testing was done at 4000 BC
• For Min beakers all testing done at 3850 BC
• For Min beakers all civs had to be founded by 3850 BC
• For Min beakers all civs were given all techs (not including future techs)
• NO Starting techs for me in any of the tests
• Both were tested 3 times for accuracy
• In all tests city was founded in 4000 BC where settler was
• In all tests there was 2 settlers which was coincidence but may be relevant
• Played as Sioux in all tests
• Tests all done by leaving science at zero and reading number of turns required
• All techs given by the cheat menu one at a time

Explaination: For max beakers all testing was done at 4000 BC because there was no way the amount required would decrease in that year. The three tests were take all tech from all civs, give all tech to all civs, and kill all civs then record results. They were all the same. In other words there is no way to decrease the ammount of beakers required for a tech in 4000 BC so the max amount of beakers required is generated. For the min beakers required the tests were done in 3850 BC because you would get immediate changes in the amount of beakers required on that year so I would see the full benefit of giving all tech to all civs immediately. I specifically only used turns with no starting techs so that that would not be a factor in the calculation. Made it easier to make sure I did not skip a tech. If I was on result 32 for example I had already researched 31. I played as Sioux because they are the last civ to get a turn so that there would be a better chance of all the civs founding b4 3850 BC which was required for testing min beakers. I checked to make sure they were all founded b4 3850 in the games I used for results. I think that covers all my variables but I might have forgot one or two.

Edit: I think the reason that some games seem to have a higher minimum beaker count then others with all other stuff constant is that you may not be able to reach the minimum beaker count by giving away all your techs this is because the min beaker count is probably only reached when you are behind the key civ which determines how many beakers are required. All my tests show that only one civ effects your beaker count but whether that civ changes during the game or how to predict which it will be I don't know. Anyways right now I am just getting results I will anylise it in detail later.
[This message has been edited by Mixam (edited April 21, 2001).]

[samson]

quote: I think the reason that some games seem to have a higher minimum beaker count then others with all other stuff constant is that you may not be able to reach the minimum beaker count by giving away all your techs this is because the min beaker count is probably only reached when you are behind the key civ which determines how many beakers are required.

No. Some games do have higher minimum beaker counts. The reason is
that all other stuff is not constant. That "stuff" being the start
that the civ gets. One thing I want to know early on in a game is whether
this is going to be a low-cost game or a high-cost game. Can I reach the "magic 24"
multiplier (for medium maps) or will I get stuck at 26?
How can I tell this from my starting location and the cost of my first few advances?

One flaw in your testing is that you are not taking into account starting techs.
Starting techs do not affect the beaker COST (since they do not count towards the tech# being researched
- only acquired techs do) but they do affect your ability to reach a lower minimum during the game.
This is because you can give away starting techs and 'get behind' the other civs more easily.
Those techs don't count towards your Tech#, but they will count towards the other civ's
Tech# because for them they will be acquired techs.
In general, if you have NO starting techs, you can not fall sufficiently behind
to generate the lowest possible minimums.
If your testing is not considering the effect of starting techs, your numbers may not be
the lowest minimums reachable during gameplay.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but most of what you are doing has been done before
using the same Cheat Menu approach. I doubt that it will produce much of anything new.
The problem lies not in your enthusiasm for the task, but in the methodology.
In my opinion, what is needed first (before someone else tests this to death and announces
another incomplete solution) is a discussion involving all of those interested in the topic.
We need to analyze the problem, not the data, at this stage. We need to share anecdotal information,
debate the validity of research methods, and determine what questions are actually worth answering;
cooperating to reach our common goal: the development of a Minimum Beaker Research Strategy.

samson


[This message has been edited by samson (edited April 21, 2001).]

[Shaka Naldur]

i´ve been playing civ2 since it was released and I have no idea of what you are talkings about

[samson]

Mixam -

quote: I am trying to figure out the actual minimum possible so that I will be able to find out how many techs the computer has to have in order for you to reach the minimum.

Yes, I understand what you are trying to do. My point is that if you ignore
starting techs in your testing, your results may not be the actual minimums.
They may be high. That's what happened to me. I had my nice little tables
for medium maps and then played a game in which I got lower than what I thought
was the minimum possible.
This however was not due to starting techs but some other factor, possibly
proximity to nearest neighbor. One idea I had was that maybe at startup
when the program assigns you starting techs, it also assigns you a handicap number
and this modifier lowers your beaker cost for the first 19 techs.
Still haven't proved that yet. But what I was getting at, is that the testing has
to be broadened to include a variety of startup conditions.

On another note, my current game is on a small map and I am using your numbers.
It was been spot on so far. Also, I am tracking in my log all changes in beaker counts
and which Civ I have to gift techs to in order to lower my beaker costs after each advance.
The trigger Civ does indeed change through out the game. In this game
which civ I have to gift to changes when my position on the PowerGraph changes.
Strangely, if the other Civs positions change but I stay the same, the gift-civ stays the same.
So far, I have occupied only two slots: Weak and Pathetic. At this point I know
when I am Weak, I have to gift the Babylonians (#5) ; when I am Pathetic, I gift the Romans (#4).
I don't know whether this relationship to the Powergraph positions is causative
or coincidental. It may simply be based on Techs, but since techs effect PG, it correlates to that.
In any case for this game I have a "tell" which has been very helpful.

later,

samson


[This message has been edited by samson (edited April 21, 2001).]

[samson]

Not to worry, Shaka, this is micromanagement minutia
of interest only to the truly obsessed,
like me and Mixam and a few others.

samson

[Mixam]

Shaka Naldur: We are talking about the amount of beakers it takes to get each advance. I don't really know what it is you don't get. Anything specific?

quote: Originally posted by samson on 04-21-2001 09:35 AMIn general, if you have NO starting techs, you can not fall sufficiently behind to generate the lowest possible minimums.

He he maybe you can't fall sufficiently behind but I can!

quote: Originally posted by samson on 04-21-2001 09:35 AM Starting techs do not affect the beaker COST (since they do not count towards the tech# being researched - only acquired techs do) but they do affect your ability to reach a lower minimum during the game. This is because you can give away starting techs and 'get behind' the other civs more easily.

Yes starting techs would effect "the games minimum" but not the actual minimum. I am trying to figure out the actual minimum possible so that I will be able to find out how many techs the computer has to have in order for you to reach the minimum. Then you will be able to tell whether you will be able to reach it given the starting techs you have. For example say the minimum can only be reached by the ai having 5 more techs than you. Then you would be wasting your time trying to get to the minimum (if you had less than 5 starting techs) unless the ai researched a few things you don't want in addition to what you give them. Anyways Mr. Wet Blanket... Can you tell me if you can produce the results I got with the SOL?

[Mixam]

I am not going to finish this project cause Samson has beat me to the punch. To find out how to calculate how many beakers you will need for the next advance go to This Thread. To find out which civ you need to gift to to lower your beaker cost go to This Thread.