Hopefully a better approach to early AC landings

[solo]

I just missed landing on the early side of 1000 AD, trying it this time without the very lucky start and some of the sleaze featured in the 776 landing game. I got Space Flight by 960 AD, and got a minimum ship launched in 1020, arriving on Alpha Centauri in 1056 AD.


After the 776 landing game, I’ve read and fully agree with several of the comments made about it that I have noticed in this forum, namely:

1) Caravan re-homing through the Super Science City (SSC) is against the game rules and is just too powerful a tactic, giving a huge boost to the amount of gold (and beakers) received for delivered commodities.

So I did not use caravan re-homing at all in this game. In addition, I did not use food caravans to add citizens to my SSC, which many consider another questionable tactic.

2) The 776 game was a second try using a very lucky start. Replaying a game confers a considerable advantage of knowing the map, especially when the one used was just about ideal for shooting records.

This game was a first try with an unknown map.

3) The 776 game started with 6 free techs, another considerable edge that reduced beaker costs substantially and led to Monarchy almost immediately.

This game started with only 2 free techs, Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial. Monarchy was early, but was still 2 research steps away instead of one.

4) The 776 game had many quickly accessible huts, which were hunted aggressively, yielding about 10 free techs and other considerable advantages.

Huts were less of a factor in this game, since only about 10 were tipped. Only one free tech came out of a hut.


5) In the 776 game, I got 2 very early advanced tribes as my 3rd and 4th cities, another huge advantage. To go from 2 to 4 cities so early, without having to build settlers to found them is a big and lucky boost.

There were two in this game also, but they came later, one as my 4th city in a very mediocre location without any specials, and the other as my 8th city in a poor location, which I had to get rid of by rushing a settler.

One thing this game did have going for it though, was an excellent SSC site, having 1 wine, 1 silk and 2 wheat and no unfavorable terrain. It only lacked rivers and gold specials.


6) In the 776 game, overall luck was so much of factor that I felt more like a stunned lottery winner.

I hope this game was a more of a test of playing skill.

(I will post a detailed log of this game tomorrow after it has been typed up.)

What are your tech goals? I understand from your other posts that you start by going for monarchy and getting bronze along the way, and then going for trade, but what do you do after that?

[Adam Smith]

Solo:
Can you post a 4000bc.sav or other early save so others can try their hand?

[Thoth]

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith on 04-22-2001 01:19 AM Solo: Can you post a 4000bc.sav or other early save so others can try their hand?

How about a log from the Master.

The best I've managed is the early 1800's. I'm curious to see what you do differently.

[solo]

Civ 2.42, deity, 7 civs, raging, other settings were standard. I played as the Indians starting with Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial. 1056 AD arrival on Alpha Centauri.

BC years

4000 Delhi
3850 Bombay
3800 Code of Laws
3700 Delhi: warrior
3500 Monarchy; Delhi: warrior; revolution
3450 government to Monarchy
3350 Delhi: warrior
3000 Bombay: settlers
2950 Map Making; Delhi: settlers
2900 Bombay: warrior
2850 Madras
2550 hut: advanced tribe, Bangalore
2450 Bronze Working; Delhi: settlers; Calcutta

The settler founding Calcutta discovered the SSC site, which had 1 wine, 1 silk and 2 wheat. There were 3 hills, 2 grassland, 3 ocean, and the rest were plains, a good location.

2400 Bombay: settlers
2350 hut: archer; Celts: peace, give tech, share maps, alliance

This alliance with the closest AI lasted all game and was mostly beneficial. However, the Celts used my turf as a parade ground for their units, often occupying locations I needed to move through. They also snuck in and built a city in a spot I wanted for one of my own later in the game. Once they had writing, an irritating ritual began that the Celts never got tired of repeating. Every 2 turns a Celt diplomat appeared right next to Calcutta, and every 2 turns I had to expel it.

2150 Lahore, Karachi; hut: 50g; Madras: settlers

Karachi was the SSC, surrounded by 6 others. I decided on 7 major cities, since adding an eighth under Monarchy causes happiness problems. Although Karachi had 4 trade specials, only Lahore had one of its own, which was gems. However, there was some overlap, and cities bordering Karachi were able to share some of its specials before it reached full size.

2100 Currency
1950 Bangalore: settlers; hut: horseman
1900 hut: advanced tribe, Kolhapur

Kolhapur was in a poor location, and caused happiness problems, so I built a settler there to disband it.

1850 Bombay: settlers
1800 Delhi: settlers
1700 Calcutta: settlers
1650 Writing; Japanese: give tech, share maps, 50g tribute

The Japanese were the only other AI on my continent and were located pretty far away.

1550 Madras: warrior; Delhi: warrior
1500 Kolhapur: settlers (disbands city); Calcutta: warrior; hut: barbarians
1400 Lahore: settlers, Bangalore: trireme
1350 hut: wandering nomad
1300 Celts: trade for Horseback Riding; Japanese: trade for Warrior Code
1250 Trade; Celts: give tech, no gift
1100 Madras: diplomat, Delhi: diplomat
1000 Calcutta: trireme
975 hut: horseman
950 Lahore: diplomat
925 Spanish: peace, trade for Pottery, Wheel, share maps
Japanese: trade for Mysticism, give tech, 25g tribute; Celts: 50g gift
900 hut: Masonry
875 Bombay: dye; Celts: give tech, no gift;
Chinese: peace, give tech, maps, 100g tribute, embassy

I used diplomats aboard triremes to explore and for starting embassies as soon as possible with all of the AI. This was an efficient way to find the AI and to get the benefit of Marco Polo’s without having to build the wonder. Always knowing what the AI were studying led to a lot of free tech during the game. With embassies, they also seemed more cooperative, too.

850 Celts: give tech, no gift
825 Bangalore: dye; Madras: dye; Delhi: dye;
Celts: give tech, no gift; Japanese: 50g tribute;
Chinese: no knowledge to trade;
Greeks: trade for Polytheism, give tech, maps, embassy
800 Lahore: warrior; Celts: give tech, 50g gift; Greeks: give tech
775 Calcutta: silver
750 Japanese: give tech
700 Lahore: trireme; Japanese: 100g tribute;
Vikings: trade for Literacy, peace, maps, embassy;
Chinese: give tech, maps
650 Bombay: gems
625 Philosophy, Monotheism; Bangalore: wool; Madras: dye;
dye(d) to Beijing, 144g; Spanish: embassy

Trade begins with the first of 61 cargoes delivered during the game. Over the next 73 turns, 18,721 gold (and beakers) were earned through trade, for an average of 256 gold (beakers) a turn. I tried to keep a steady stream of commodities going to the most remote demanding cities on other continents, relying on the power of the caravan all game for income and for boosting research.

600 Delhi: salt; Japanese: give tech, no tribute
550 Lahore: copper; Calcutta: dye; dye(d) to Toledo, 120g; Jaipur
525 Republic; revolution, government to Republic; Madras: wool;
Bombay: silver; Celts: give tech, 50g
500 Karachi: Michaelangelo’s Chapel; we love begins
Bangalore: diplomat; Vikings & Chinese: give tech

The simultaneous “we love” starts. A good part of Michaelangelo’s was completed by Karachi, which started building a wonder right after being founded. Republic, (and earlier, Monarchy) goes to all the AI quickly so that they can learn techs faster which I can trade for later.

475 Spanish: give tech, share maps; Celts: 25g gift;
Chinese: give a tech, goodbye

The Chinese were very shy and often said goodbye after receiving just one tech gift.

450 dye(d) to Cordoba, 215g; Celts & Greeks: give tech
425 Delhi: salt; Celts: 25g gift
400 Greeks: give tech, share maps
375 Construction; Calcutta: wool; dye(d) to Sparta, 256g;
Hyderbad; we love ends

The 7 original cities have all gone from size 3 to size 8. Quick early growth provided a big boost for science and for trade revenues. When the Hanging Gardens were ready, luxuries could be lowered to 20% and science set at 80%, and happiness was easily maintained without having to build temples. My plan for the size 8 cities was to have Michaelangelo’s keep 4 citizens happy and to use colosseums later just before going to Democracy to happy up the other 4 citizens before setting science to 100%. Building temples now would have disrupted the flow of caravans and their gold and beaker output. Later on, only colosseums were needed and they were easy to rush-buy later when I had more gold made by focusing on trade now.

350 Karachi: gems; Lahore: dye; Madras: hides; Bombay: gold;
Celts: trade for Mathematics
325 Jaipur: dye; Karachi: Hanging Gardens;
Celts: give tech, share maps

At this time the Spaniards built the Colossus wonder in Madrid after I beat them to the Hanging Gardens. This turned out to be beneficial, since Madrid became a great city to trade with. In the 776 landing game, I built Colossus instead of the HG and benefited by re-homing caravans through my SSC which had the Colossus. Since re-homing was not an option in this game, I felt I could get more benefit by letting an AI build the Colossus and get its trade benefits by delivering many caravans to Madrid, where it was built. If I had built the Colossus in Karachi, only its own caravans would have benefited from the trade boost. So you might say that I still “homed in” on the Colossus, doing it this game in a perfectly acceptable and honorable way!

300 Engineering; Bangalore: beads;
Spanish: trade for Iron Working, share maps;
Greeks: give tech, share maps;
Japanese: embassy, give tech, share maps;
Vikings: give tech, share maps;
gems(d) to Kaupang, 398g
275 Karachi: copper; Jaipur: trireme; hut: 50g
250 Seafaring; copper(d) to Cordoba, 416g
225 Karachi: coal; Bombay: diplomat; Delhi: wine; Greeks: give tech
200 Medicine

Trade is really boosting beakers at this stage in the game, whenever demanded cargos are landed. Techs normally taking 5 or 6 turns of research are coming about every other turn.

175 Lahore: coal; Calcutta: wool; Madras: cloth;
silver(d) to Salamanca, 433g; Bengal
150 Sanitation; Karachi: aqueduct;
minor barbarian invasion, archer bribed
125 Karachi: Shakespeare’s Theater, we love starts;
Bangalore: food; Bengal: warrior; copper(d) to Athens, 304g

Now the SSC could continue its growth, which was easy to sustain at 20% luxuries because of the Hanging Gardens. It reached a final size of 22 citizens.

100 University; Jaipur: dye; Celts: embassy;
dye(d) to Valencia, 352g; Spanish: give tech, maps
75 Karachi: marketplace; Delhi: salt;
Spanish: trade for Bridge Building; Vikings: give tech, share maps
wool(d) to Uppsala, 376g
50 Astronomy; Bombay: silver
25 Karachi: harbor; Lahore: gems; Calcutta: wool; Madras: hides;
gems(d) to Cordoba, 502g

AD years

1 Banking; Hyderbad: beads; Karachi: sewer system;
Chinese: give tech, share maps
20 Bengal: silk; Bangalore: silver; beads(d) to Salamanca, 432g
40 Economics; Jaipur: wool; Karachi: library; dye(d) to Seville, 520g
60 Delhi: beads; Greeks: give tech, share maps
80 Theory of Gravity; Karachi: university; Bombay: beads
wool(d) to Athens, 256g
100 Hyderbad: settlers; Lahore: beads; Calcutta: spice; Madras: hides
120 Karachi: bank; Celts, Chinese, Japanese: give tech
140 Navigation; Karachi: Copernicus’ Observatory;
Bengal: wine; Bangalore: gems; dye(d) to Uppsala, 112g
180 silver(d) to Sparta, 200g
200 Physics; Jaipur: wool; Karachi: dye; Delhi: wool;
salt(d) to Madrid, 404g (not bad for salt!)
220 Magnetism; Bombay: cloth; hides(d) to Corinth, 172g
240 Hyderbad: gold; Lahore: spice; Calcutta: gold;
Madras: cloth; beads(d) to Valencia, 120g
Spanish: give tech, share maps
260 Chemistry; Karachi: coal; silver(d) to Seville, 440g
280 Bengal: beads; Bangalore: gold
300 Invention; gems(d) to Salamanca, 324g
320 Jaipur: coal; Karachi: food; Bangalore: colosseum; Delhi: food

Now I’m getting ready to switch to Democracy. With Magnetism and Leonardo’s, my triremes can be upgraded to galleons before the change in governments. Colosseums are being built in size 8 cities to handle happiness, since the Hanging Gardens are about to expire. As noted earlier, under Democracy, science will be set and left at 100% until Superconductor is discovered, near the end of the game.

340 Democracy; Bombay: food; Celts: give tech, 75g gift;
Japanese & Vikings: give tech, share maps; gems(d) to Valencia, 234g
360 Hyderbad: dye; Karachi: Leonardo’s Workshop;
Lahore: coal; Calcutta: food; Madras: coal; Delhi: colosseum;
Greeks: give tech, share maps
380 Steam Engine; Bombay: colosseum; spice(d) to Madrid, 546g;
wine(d) to Trondheim, 260g
400 Gunpowder; Bengal: silk; Karachi: coal; Lahore: colosseum;
Calcutta: colosseum; Madras: colosseum; dye(d) to Kaupang, 340g;
wool(d) to Sparta, 200g
420 Metallurgy; Karachi: Sir Isaac Newton’s College
Chinese: give tech, share maps
440 Jaipur: coal; Bangalore: food; beads(d) to Nanking, 172g; revolution
460 government to Democracy, spice(d) to Nanking, 192g

Now with Democracy and science at 100%, beakers on hand are about a caravan delivery short of beakers required for each advance, so my plan is to time commodity deliveries in order to maintain an advance each turn. This worked most of the time.

480 Explosives; Hyderbad: dye; Karachi: coal; Lahore: coal;
Calcutta: dye; Bombay: gold; Delhi: food;
wool(d) to Thermopylae, 64g
500 Madras: coal; gold(d) to Valencia, 330g
520 Electricity
540 Atomic Theory; Bengal: beads; Karachi: food
560 Jaipur: food; Bangalore: food; Chittagong
580 Railroad; Hyderbad: gold; Lahore: wool; Calcutta: food;
Bombay: food; Delhi: food; Vikings & Spanish: give tech, share maps
Greeks: trade for Feudalism
600 Industrialization; Karachi: food; silk(d) to Madrid, 316g
620 Corporation; Calcutta: library; Madras: cloth; Bombay: library;
Delhi: library; coal(d) to Madrid, 832g

With faster ships and faster freights, it is easier to deliver to far away Madrid and benefit from the Colossus.

640 Steel; Bengal: engineers; dye(d) to Roskilde, 336g
660 Refining; Jaipur: food; Karachi: hides; Lahore: spice;
Calcutta: wool; Bangalore: gems; Madras: library; Delhi: university;
gold(d) to Madrid, 672g; Vikings: give tech, maps
680 Electronics; Bombay: hides; coal(d) to Athens, 215g

With Electronics, the colosseums take full effect.

700 Combustion; Hyderbad: salt; Karachi: hides;
Lahore: library; Calcutta: university; Bangalore: library;
Punjab & Dacca, wool(d) to Viborg, 296g;
gold(d) to Toledo, 228g;
720 Automobile; Greeks: trade for Chivalry;
Vikings: trade for Conscription, give tech, share maps
740 Mass Production; Karachi: superhighways; Lahore: university;
gems(d) to Trondheim, 426g; Vikings: trade for Tactics

Embassies are paying off, as I was able to trade for a lot of techs which the AI were able to learn. The Vikings were learning Leadership before they built Darwin‘s, which also gave them Tactics, another tech I needed. When trading, I held off on Leadership, to keep my beaker requirements lower. Only Tactics was needed to move on to Machine Tools.

760 Nuclear Fission; Celts: give tech
780 Machine Tools, Karachi: hides; beads(d) to Canton, 140g;
hides to Sparta, 102g; hides to Valencia, 483g
800 Miniaturization; Bengal: coal; Hyderbad: food;
Calcutta: food; wool(d) to Roskilde, 312g
820 Computers; Karachi: oil; Lahore: oil; Bangalore: wool;
Madras: oil; coal(d) to Athens, 240g
840 Nuclear Power; Dacca: dye; Jaipur: food; Karachi: research lab;
Bombay: beads; Japanese, Spanish & Greeks: give tech, share maps
Celts: 175g gift; gems(d) to Valencia, 420g
hides, spice, & cloth to Madrid, 681g, 208g, 202g

Since Flight was about to cancel Colossus, I dumped off all commodities within reach to Madrid to get more gold.

860 Flight; Chittagong: wool; Bengal: food; Hyderbad: wool;
Calcutta: food; Madras: dye; Delhi: oil; gems(d) to Valencia, 224g;
Celts: 100g gift; Japanese: give tech
880 Laser; Dacca: gold; Karachi: dye; Lahore: food; Bangalore: food;
Bombay: oil; coal(d) to Uppsala, 207g; Celts: 50g gift
900 Radio; Chittagong: oil; Hyderbad: food; Jaipur: food;
Madras: food; Delhi: food; Spanish & Vikings: give tech, share maps;
wool(d) to Kaupang, 192g
920 Advanced Flight; Bengal: beads; Karachi: food; Calcutta: food;
Bangalore: wool; Bombay: food; hides to Seville, 436g;
Celts: give tech, maps; Spanish: trade for Mobile Warfare

Usually, when following this sequence through the tech tree, Space Flight is not presented the turn after discovering Rocketry, so with nothing to lose I try trading tech with the Spanish, who had learned Mobile Warfare a few turns ago and was happy to discover that a tech trade influences the subsequent list of available techs for study.

940 Rocketry; Dacca: coal; Hyderbad: food; Jaipur: food;
Lahore: food; Madras: food; Delhi: food;
dye(d) to Salamanca, 174g; dye(d) to Kaupang, 636g
960 Space Flight; Karachi: food; Bangalore: food;
oil to Seville, 440g; Celts: 75g gift
980 Plastics; Karachi: Apollo Program; Madras: gems;
oil to Seville, 118g; wool(d) to Uppsala, 102g;
beads(d) to Kyoto, 80g; oil to Karachi, 40g;
Vikings: trade for Leadership

Again, a tech trade before learning Superconductor, influences the subsequent study list, and Fusion Power appeared, when it usually doesn’t.

1000 Superconductor; Dacca: S#1; Punjab: C#1; Chittagong: S#2;
Bengal: S#3; Hyderbad: S#4; Jaipur: S#5; Karachi: S#6; Lahore: S#7;
Calcutta: S#8; Bangalore: food; Madras: S#9; Bombay: S#10;
Delhi: C#2
1020 Fusion Power; Dacca: S#11; Punjab: M#1; Chittagong: S#12;
Bengal: S#13; Hyderbad: S#14; Jaipur: S#15; Bangalore: M#2;
Delhi: M#3; 15-1-1-1-1-1, launch

With only 200 more gold I could have made 2 more components for a faster trip, but just like the AI, when the red launch button appears, I push it!

1056 Arrival on Alpha Centauri
[This message has been edited by solo (edited April 24, 2001).]

[solo]

In answer to previous questions:

SilverDragon - The tech goals can be followed in the log of the game, which has been posted now. Briefly, in order, they go Monarchy, (Map Making & Writing), Trade, (Monotheism & Republic), (Construction & Medicine & Sanitation), (University & Astronomy), (Magnetism & Invention), Democracy, Theory of Gravity, Corporation, Automobile,
Computers, Space Flight.

Adam Smith - I do not how to set up a file for downloading, but will be happy to email it to anyone or to one of those experts who know how to set up links for downloads.

Thoth - Not too long ago, I was struggling to get to AC before 2020 on Emperor level. I got better by studying the advice and logs of the games of the master players found in this forum.

[Scouse Gits]

Very well done - a completely 'untainted' eleventh century landing - a feat I for one am unlikely to achieve. Again well done.

A small point your 4th city an advanced tribe 'without specials' - unless my thesis is totally flawed one of the four squares two away from the city in the 9 or 1 directions should be a hidden - can you confirm or deny this?

[Edited to confirm to Mixam's Hut Law]
------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited April 23, 2001).]

[Scouse Gits]

Now in GL ...

[samson]

Congrats, solo, an amazing achievement.

But as for your 776 game, don't disparage Luck.
Luck, good and bad, is part of the game.
And, usually, records are set when the Luck is good.

samson

[East Street Trader]

SG

The special site can lie beneath a watery grave.

[solo]

Scouse Gits

You are right, I bet, because there were a good amount of grassland squares in the city's radius, and grassland will always cover up any special. I did not think of trying, or for that matter have the time, to mine any grassland squares near it during the game to try and uncover specials.

If I emailed my 4000.sav, would you be kind enough to do me another favor as you did with the previous one for the 776 game? I will send it now, just in case the answer is yes!

samson

true, what you say about good luck and good results. It's just as bad to fudge good results to make things seem less lucky than they were than it is to fudge bad results to improve luck when things are not going well. But when luck is very, very good, onlookers can not help but be suspicious, so I prefer even or slightly adverse luck, and try to do well in spite of it. Even with that said, when shooting for a record or good result, it's silly to try it with a really rotten start. Before the 1056 game, I tried a few other games on fresh maps, which lacked the basic ingredients for a chance of a good result, such as a decent SSC site. In one start I was given 7 free techs, but had to spend the first 20 moves moving my settlers along the northern icecap, looking for a city site!


EST

I believe huts are the only thing covered by water, as specials always appear there as either fish or whales. On land, it's the reverse, but only with grassland squares, where huts appear and where specials have been smothered by all the green growing things.

[samson]

quote: But when luck is very, very good, onlookers can not help but be suspicious, so I prefer even or slightly adverse luck, and try to do well in spite of it.

Suspicious of what? Getting 6 starting techs? I've had 8, including both Monarchy and Trade.
I couldn't believe it. Then I explored a bit and found I was stuck on a rocky little island.
Getting a load of techs, good terrain, and a fine strategic location is a rare combination.
I downloaded the 4000BC save of your 776 game and have been saving it
(like a fine wine) until I know what kind of game I want to play on it.

My point was, that a pre-1000AD landing will almost certaingly have a big heap
of good luck to it. Of the points you mention above only #1 (caravan rehoming)
taints the landing date for me. That is clearly a circumvention of an intended prohibition.
Even the 2nd effort doesn't bother me much; the game still demonstrates
that the possibility of an awesomely early landing exists.
The rest of it: free techs, huts, advanced tribes - that's all part of the game.



[This message has been edited by samson (edited April 23, 2001).]

[Bird]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 04-21-2001 10:39 PM Usually, when following this sequence through the tech tree, Space Flight is not presented the turn after discovering Rocketry, so with nothing to lose I try trading tech with the Spanish, who had learned Mobile Warfare a few turns ago and was happy to discover that a tech trade influences the subsequent list of available techs for study.

I wonder if that concept will work on the monarchy tech path? Have you ever tried it?

[solo]

samson

Good points, and have fun with your game. I'll really look forward to seeing what approach you take, and how successful it is.


Bird

I have not tried that yet on Monarchy, but I'll bet it works, because it happened for me twice. However, if you meet an AI early, they are more likely than not to have a prequisite of Monarchy they want to trade and you can get an even better jump. What I would like to know is whether just gifting a tech has the same effect. I doubt it, though. Please let me know what happens if you try using this idea to get to Monarchy faster.


All

Thanks to Scouse Gits, the save files are now available:

zipped - http://www.cms.livjm.ac.uk/wittgenst...o/mo_b4000.zip
& save - http://www.cms.livjm.ac.uk/wittgenst...o/mo_b4000.sav


[This message has been edited by solo (edited April 24, 2001).]