Downgraded Leonardos Workshop (if still in)

[Ralf]

The Leonardos Workshop wonder was waaaay to powerful in Civ-2. It unbalanced the game. It was easily much more worthwhile then the Eiffeltower + Darwins Voyage + Statue of Liberty put together. Hell, even if they added Cure for Cancer also, and if I was forced to choose between these four wonder OR Leonardos Workshop, I think would have chosen the latter anyway. I dont know if its still in. If it is, it must be downgraded. I suggest:

- LW is now a small Wonder, available for those who have earned enough veteran combat-points.
- You must pay an upgrade-fee for each unit - still favourable compared with building from scratch.
- You can only upgrade units fortified in your cities. You must bring them in.
- Any achieved veteran/elite combat-status falls down one step, in the process.

Such a "downgraded" small Leonardos Workshop Wonder, would still be a very attractive to have, the way I see it. Finally, (I almost forgot) you cannot upgrade any unit-type to any different updated unit-type, of course.

- Bombers only to advanced bombers
- Early wooden warships only to advanced wooden warships
- Infantry defence-units only to more advanced infantry defence-units
- Early tanks only to modern tanks, and so on.

[Ilkuul]

No, no, leave Leonardo's exactly the way it is -- I love it! (But I agree that's probably BECAUSE it's too powerful!)

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Ilkuul
No, no, leave Leonardo's exactly the way it is -- I love it! (But I agree that's probably BECAUSE it's too powerful!)

But 9 times out of 10, the veteran-player got it - and this wonder was exclusive. AI-civs couldnt catch up easily. How fun is it to kick on already laying men? Dont you guys want a more challenging game?

[dainbramaged13]

yah but i still cant beat occ on deity so..

[TCO]

Originally posted by Ralf
The Leonardos Workshop wonder was waaaay to powerful in Civ-2. It unbalanced the game. It was easily much more worthwhile then the Eiffeltower + Darwins Voyage + Statue of Liberty put together. Hell, even if they added Cure for Cancer also, and if I was forced to choose between these four wonder OR Leonardos Workshop, I think would have chosen the latter anyway. I dont know if its still in. If it is, it must be downgraded. I suggest:

I agree with you with one exception!!

In diety, Statue is extremely valauable if you play the Statue --> fundy method.

Nothing like being in Fundy early, stacking up the bucks and kicking major ass!! I

[TCO]

Originally posted by dainbramaged13
yah but i still cant beat occ on deity so..

WIMP!! Drop and give me 20!!

[TCO]

Originally posted by Ilkuul
No, no, leave Leonardo's exactly the way it is -- I love it! (But I agree that's probably BECAUSE it's too powerful!)

Don't be so wimpy.

Originally posted by Ilkuul
No, no, leave Leonardo's exactly the way it is -- I love it!

I agree.

[Inverse Icarus]

ahhh... in one turn all my warriors/phalanxes/legions/archers/pikemen turn into musketeers.

[saracen31]

Always gotta get that Leo on Deity level - instant warriors to musketeers. Then immediately to riflemen, and all horsemen to dragoons.

Agreed, it's WAY too powerful. I love it, but it really does skew the game way too much. I like Ralf's ideas: bring the units back to town & pay a SMALL upgrade fee - maybe 1/4 or 1/2 the cost of building a unit from scratch.

[korn469]

Leo SHOULD NOT be in civ3 if it opperates as it does in civ2! remember in addition to shields you now have to consider special resources too

but i liked Ralf's idea about the LW as a small wonder, it didn't sound unbalanced, in fact it sounds like a nice little addition

[isaac brock]

Most of the wonders weren't as powerful as i wanted in civ 2, and in civ 3 they'll be even weaker. that blows serious hamster ass. in SMAC, however, almost all the projects were powerful enough to give you a serious edge. I might let them have the merchant exchange, or something crappy like that (taking that city later, of course) but if you were the university, you could often build the projects before the others even research them, and it would give you a faction-crushing edge over them. After civ 3, i can't wait for SMAC 2

[saracen31]

originally posted by isaac brock
Most of the wonders weren't as powerful as i wanted in civ 2, and in civ 3 they'll be even weaker. that blows serious hamster ass.

To me, some of Civ II's wonders were totally unbalancing - Leo's leads the list, but Adam Smith was a bit much as was the Great Wall early in the game.

Then there were others that were weak: Shakespeare's Theater comes to mind on this list, the Lighthouse expires too quickly.

And then the totally stupid ones: if I build the Apollo Program or Manhattan Project, why should the whole world benefit?

I don't mind if Civ III's wonders are weaker: I just don't want any that are mindless or totally unbalance the game.

I do have every confidence that they're playtesting the hell out of the game, so hopefully they'll get it right.

[TechWins]

Well, it's getting really late for me (5:30am wake up & it's 11:30pm right now), so I wasn't able to read every post, sorry. I want to make this point clear, though, before I go to bed.

It's going to be rather difficult having units upgraded with the resource requirements for units.

Also sorry about the lack of elaboration on that thought.

[Harlan]

I think its a good bet that Leonardo's will be a Small Wonder, meaning each civ can have one. In a similar vein, note how Sun Tzu's Academy is now the generic Military Academy Small Wonder.

I agree that its good if units could only upgrade if of the same type. In other words, you couldn't have a Trireme and keep upgrading it to a Battleship. At some point it reaches the end of the wooden ship line and should stop there.

[Bleyn]

Originally posted by saracen31


And then the totally stupid ones: if I build the Apollo Program or Manhattan Project, why should the whole world benefit?

I can think of one good reason why everyone should benifit from them at least in terms of Civ2. Would you really want the game set up where the civ that builds the Manhattan project is the ONLY one that gets nukes? Of the one that builds the Apollo project is the ONLY one to get into space?

The game would basically become a race to build those projects.

I agree there should be more of a benifit just to the civ that builds them, at least for the Apollo project. But exclusivity would be too nasty.

There are a couple ways I can see that they could use to deal with this that would be more balancing.

1. A Major Wonder/Minor Wonder combo. The major wonder, say the Apollo Program, has to be built first. The minor wonder just plain isn't available until then. Once the major wonder is built, every other civ with the right prereqs. can build a similar but scaled down minor wonder. And that would be the key difference, the major wonder would have some benifits only available to them. For example, maybe reduced costs on spaceship construction.

2. A Women's Sufferage/Police Station type combo. IE. The civ with the Wonder get the equivilent of the city improvement in every city. This might be more appropriate for the Manhattan Project. Thus if you don't have the M.P. wonder, you have to build a nuclear weapons factory in a city before you can build nucs. there. But if you have it, you can build them everywhere. Though, I would still think it best to require the M.P. to be built before nuc. weapons factories became available to everyone else.

I'm sure there are other ways these wonders could be balanced with just a little creative thought.

[Father Beast]

Originally posted by Bleyn


I can think of one good reason why everyone should benifit from them at least in terms of Civ2. Would you really want the game set up where the civ that builds the Manhattan project is the ONLY one that gets nukes? Of the one that builds the Apollo project is the ONLY one to get into space?

The game would basically become a race to build those projects.

I agree there should be more of a benifit just to the civ that builds them, at least for the Apollo project. But exclusivity would be too nasty.

ummm... It's already been announce that Apollo and Manhattan will be minor wonders. each civ wanting to go to space will have to build apollo, and any civ wanting nukes will have to build manhattan first.

[Bleyn]

Originally posted by Father Beast


ummm... It's already been announce that Apollo and Manhattan will be minor wonders. each civ wanting to go to space will have to build apollo, and any civ wanting nukes will have to build manhattan first.

Ah... Its a little hard to keep up with these things sometimes. And the way Saracen31 was talking about it, it did sort of sound like that info wasn't available yet.

[Sabre2th]

I would say that Leo's is probably either changed or not in, since resources are now needed.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, I have an Idea for keeping Leonardos Workshop in the game without it having the same unbalancing effect. Basically it should probably be kept as a major wonder, but if its a minor wonder then it should require the civ to have at least 5 barracks/5 Universities. Essentially, whenever you begin researching a new military technology, you get a free "Prototype" unit that goes with that advance. The unit should have a higher maintainance cost until you have actually finished your research, at which point it becomes an ordinary unit of that type. Obviously, if the "Prototype" gets destroyed, thats it, you don't get any more!!
Aside from that. Leonardos should HALVE the cost of unit upgrades (which I think should work as in SMAC!!)
An alternative model for unit upgrades, however, could involve a number of turns required to upgrade a unit in the field (between 2-8 turns-depending on unit type), as well as a cost. Units in a fortress or barracks (or port etc) could upgrade in half this time, and paying 2x upgrade cost could halve this again. If this model for unit Upgrades were adopted, then Leonardos "secondary" function might be to halve the time for unit upgrades in the field (to between 1-4 turns), with all other halving factors counting from this point!
Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[aaglo]

Why on earth the name Apollo Program? There seems to be a major gap in some designers history knowledge....

[Provost Harrison]

Yeah, such upgrades should be available to all civs at a cost, like in SMAC. Perhaps Leonardo's Workshop could have an effect similar to what the Nano Factory had in SMAC, halving the costs of all upgrades.

[Sava]

I agree with you completely Ralf....

except...

Infantry units, whether they be swordsmen, riflemen, etc, are just guys carrying weapons. Technology doesn't evolve so quick that you would have hundreds of thousands of men with spears when a laser rifle is invented (just for example). Technology upgrades in military use have always been slow, I think Civ should reflect that buy focusing more on weapons than specific units. That way you would upgrade units by equipping them with new weapons (Colonization). It's probably too late to put this in the game anyways.

[Inverse Icarus]

leos is too powerful.

about 5 turns before you finish it, build warriors in all your cities, and rush buy any left before you complete leos, and you can have 2-3 musketeers per city, plus whatever was there.

THEN SLOWLY CREEP OVER THE LANDSCAPE WITH YOUR 3-3-1

[saracen31]

I really do like the idea of having units come in from the field to upgrade, whether that upgrade is through shields or gold or whatever.

Have them visit cities or colonies. If they visit a colony, they can get new weaponry but lose experience. Have it work the same way in cities, but with an option to remain at the barracks (if oneis built in that city) for a couple turns to keep their current experience level.

Maybe the new equivalent of Leo's can eliminate that waiting period at the barracks, and just let upgraded units keep their current experience level.

[korn469]

Infantry units, whether they be swordsmen, riflemen, etc, are just guys carrying weapons.

it's not so much the weapons but the tactics the infantry men use that takes most of the time in training soldiers

like if you went back and gave AK-47's to the armies in the late 1700's it's not like they would automatically adopt modern tactics...in the US Civil War one of the reasons for the great loss of life was many of the commanders were using tactics that worked fine in the Napoleonic wars but were outdated by the time the civil war started because firearms had a longer range and were more accurate

still though, if Leo's is in Civ3 in any form should a chariot be able to upgrade into a Dragoon for a small fraction of the Dragoon's cost?