I cannot stress how important these changes are

[korn469]

These are a few small last minute changes that are vital in my opinion to Civ3

1. All cities always need at least one population point per city who cannot be made into a specialist.

It's anti-ICS, anti-army laundering, anti-cheese! It's simple elegent, and easy to understand. It floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee, it's like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow! It's less cheating! Works Great! Civ3 needs this!

2. Granaries should at most reduce the food requirements by 30%. (even 1/3 could be too much)

Granaries will bring back ICS if granaries work like they do in civ2, so please change granaries so they won't reduce food required by more than 30%. It will make all the difference needed in the game! Please please please!

3. Add the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.) to civ3.

It will reinvigorate the modern age, it will balance gameplay at the end of the game, and it will make civ3 the best game ever. I've got M.A.D. on the brain! Civ3 has got to have it!



if you need full details on the strategy exploits these changes will end just ask me

support this thread people! let firaxis know you want these changes!

[TechWins]

Well, I couldn't agree more with you on the MAD subject, but if MAD hasn't been included already there's no chance for it being included. I've targeted many of my "ask the civ team" questions towards MAD and obviously have not seen any results from it.

I'm not too sure about your other two, though.

A point that I would like to stress is that air combat needs to have a lot more importance added to it. Hopefully, the "mission" style of movement has done this.

[saracen31]

Originally posted by TechWins
A point that I would like to stress is that airfare needs to have a lot more importance.

Airfare or air warfare?

[korn469]

TechWins

i too have sent a number of questions about nuclear weapons and M.A.D. to firaxis, and if it isn't in now it won't make it during release (i can always hope it will make the expansion)

if you have ever played SMAC, there is a building in the game called a punishment sphere, which makes all of the people in your city happy, but it decreases that cities research by half

by using supply crawlers and by making all of the population of that city entertainers, you can home all of your air force or invading force to that city, thereby exempting you from the unhappiness penalty of being at war (under democracy in civ2, free market in SMAC) this is called army laundering and it ruins the enjoyment of the game...the same thing could be done in civ2 if you built shakespeare's theater

however in civ3 since military units cost gold instead of shields, this will be a very simple thing to do, and it's widespread use could destroy the game (because civ3 only has five governments, and they must be well balanced for the game to work)

also anytime a player doesn't want to deal with unhappiness all they have to do is turn everyone into entertainers, and this ruins the game, people should have to deal with unhappiness at some points

__________________________________________________ _

with the 30% reduction in food cost instead of 50% reduction in food cost then that ensures a flat settler production time, which prevents ICS, without it ICS will again ruin the game

[TechWins]

Airfare or air warfare?

You know when I typed that I thought it sounded a little odd in that context. I'll go fix it after this post.

if you have ever played SMAC

Yes, I have played SMAC and I don't really remember much about it. I only played the game once and never played it again (I don't like the sci-fi part of the game).

I wasn't very clear here, "I'm not too sure about your other two, though". What I meant is I'm not sure if Firaxis has done anything with that and if they even will/would have.

[korn469]

TechWins

What I meant is I'm not sure if Firaxis has done anything with that and if they even will/would have.

i am assuming that they have not implemented these changes yet, and as of now have no intention of implementing them, i also assume that they haven't ever tried to implement them, and probably haven't even though of them

when people wanted a peaceful trigger to Golden Ages they responded, and i am hoping they will respond to this as well

[TechWins]

Yeah you are right Korn.

Only the very small changes will be listened to now and those two are very small changes, but only Firaxis knows if they will make those changes.

[korn469]

TechWins

i truly believe that those small changes which might take a couple of hours to do at most (a few minutes to do at least) would change the game to a significant degree in a very positive manner, ending vast exploitation of the game in the form of army laundering and ICS, plus it would make the game harder on diety

if only they see them i think they will consider them

[Sabre2th]

These are a few small last minute changes that are vital in my opinion to Civ3

IMO, if you don't like it, don't buy/play it. Either it's in or it's not. This thread won't be changing much of anything.

1. All cities always need at least one worker.

It's anti-ICS, anti-army laundering, anti-cheese! It's simple elegent, and easy to understand. It floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee, it's like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow! It's less cheating! Works Great! Civ3 needs this!

uhhh...... Shouldn't be necessary, given the new limitations. This would take away from gameplay IMO. One less choice I get to make.

2. Granaries should at most reduce the food requirements by 30%. (even 1/3 could be too much)

This has already been discussed. Either it's in or it's not.

Granaries will bring back ICS if granaries work like they do in civ2

Probably not.

3. Add the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.) to civ3.

Again, too late. The choice has already been made.

support this thread people! let firaxis know you want these changes!

It's too late for the changes that really matter. If you don't like the little things, either don't play or fix them yourself.

[TechWins]

IMO, if you don't like it, don't buy/play it. Either it's in or it's not. This thread won't be changing much of anything.

It's not really that Korn won't buy the game; I think he just wants these changes to be made very badly.

[korn469]

MO, if you don't like it, don't buy/play it. Either it's in or it's not. This thread won't be changing much of anything.

the same could have been said about a peaceful trigger for golden ages, so your statement is untrue about not changing anything...also this is from the lastest ask the civ3 team

A cultural victory can occur if one of your cities amasses 20,000 culture points, or if your entire empire amasses at least 80,000 culture points and no rival civ has more than half of your cultural value. (These values may fluctuate as we test them out, but you get the general idea.)

so they are still certainly working on the game, and like i said it is a small change so it would be in the realm of possibility for firaxis to do this

Shouldn't be necessary, given the new limitations. This would take away from gameplay IMO. One less choice I get to make.

well if you consider army laundering a choice and not a horrible game exploit then you are losing a choice, but to me it is fixing an exploit in the game's rules

Probably not

look at the ICS thread, it certainly looks like ICS will be back if granaries work like they did in civ2

Again, too late. The choice has already been made.

for all we know M.A.D. is in Civ3, there has only been one quote about the subject, and that was from the gamespot uk preview and jeff Briggs said that once more than one civ got nukes they wouldn't be of much value, so to me that implies M.A.D.

It's too late for the changes that really matter. If you don't like the little things, either don't play or fix them yourself.

there is still at least a month till civ3 goes gold, more than enough time to implement these changes, and unless the scenario editor is truly robust i wouldn't be able to fix these things

one last thing

if you don't like it, don't buy/play it.

without a demo how would one know if these things are in the game? no preview is going to discuss this, and many stores won't let you return it once you have opened it

i'm trying to point out to the team at firaxis problems that may arise in civ3, and things arent as black and white as you make them out to be, i'm not complaining i'm trying to give constructive feedback to the team, which is what we should all try to do

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by TechWins


It's not really that Korn won't buy the game; I think he just wants these changes to be made very badly.

I know that, but it's just not practical to ask for MAD at this point, unless it's already in. The game is done, for the most part.

so they are still certainly working on the game, and like i said it is a small change so it would be in the realm of possibility for firaxis to do this

I didn't say they weren't making changes, I'm saying that you shouldn't get your hopes up.

well if you consider army laundering a choice and not a horrible game exploit then you are losing a choice, but to me it is fixing an exploit in the game's rules

I shouldn't be required to build/support a worker if I don't want to. If I choose not to develop my land, I shouldn't have to pay for the worker. (I'm not saying this is my strategy, I'm saying that I don't like the idea)

look at the ICS thread, it certainly looks like ICS will be back if granaries work like they did in civ2

This is speculuation. The bottom line is that we just don't know.

there is still at least a month till civ3 goes gold, more than enough time to implement these changes, and unless the scenario editor is truly robust i wouldn't be able to fix these things

I didn't say there wasn't time for changes, I said, again, that you shouldn't get your hopes up. And yes, it is most likely too late for MAD.

without a demo how would one know if these things are in the game? no preview is going to discuss this, and many stores won't let you return it once you have opened it

That's where Apolyton comes in. If these things are that important to you, wait until people start discussing things here before you buy it.

[korn469]

I know that, but it's just not practical to ask for MAD at this point, unless it's already in. The game is done, for the most part.

i asked for M.A.D. years ago, and i have continued to ask for it since then...does that count?

I'm saying that you shouldn't get your hopes up.

i hope for the best expect the worst

1. All cities always need at least one worker.

I shouldn't be required to build/support a worker if I don't want to. If I choose not to develop my land, I shouldn't have to pay for the worker.

you have completely misunderstood me Sabre2th and i will edit my original post

what I mean is this

1. All cities always need at least one population point per city who cannot be made into a specialist.

[Skanky Burns]

I agree with you, Korn, having read your analysis in the ICS thread on what settlers will cost in Civ 3. The food production must be kept slower than the "shield" production so that an ICSer and a Perfectionist, and those in-between wont differ greatly in initial expansion.

About MAD: I think this is in, as there are 2 different nukes available, where the 'big' one takes 2 turns to hit, but can hit anywhere on the map. These leave radiation around the city too. However, its all still speculation.

Changing the value of the granary bonus and ensuring that each city has at least 1 productive pop unit are very small changes in programming terms, but large changes in game-play terms. There shouldn't be any reason Firaxis couldn't implement these things quite easily. I think we will probably be able to edit the granary's effects on the city, if they dont do it for us. Hopefully the pop-check will also be done for us.

I didn't say they weren't making changes, I'm saying that you shouldn't get your hopes up.

Try to post constructive criticism. Speculating about how Civ 3 might work is why we are here, and we shouldn't restrict ourselves to talking only about confirmed features because Firaxis *might* not implement them...

you have completely misunderstood me Sabre2th and i will edit my original post

When i first read this thread, i decided to comment on the 'every city needs a worker' part of your post, but then once i was replying, it was completely different!! I thought i was going crazy!!

[Warm Beer]

Originally posted by korn469


1. All cities always need at least one population point per city who cannot be made into a specialist.

/Zen Mode
Is one an entertainer if there is no one to entertain?
/Zen Mode

Yeah, that's a great idea actually. It makes absolutely no sense (in realism terms) to have a city were no one is doing anything productive. Geez, somobody has to clean the toilets!

M.A.D. is an excellent idea, even if it is in the spectulative way of the 2 turn nuke, giving you a chance to retaliate and (uh oh) move all your armies out of the way... Unless you just get the message, "Gandhi just launched a nuke at us Great Leader! We must retaliate, but there is no indication of where it is gonna land.

More speculation, however.

[korn469]

Warm Beer

hehe i like the zen mode, quite insightful

but besides realism, if they don't the at least one non specialist per city, army laundering will be out of control! it's needed as a check on supporting armies by gold, plus it would be to actually have situations where you couldn't avoid riots by just turning everyone into entertainers, that is an exploit to me, i doubt that Sid wanted the game to be like that

i wanna see M.A.D. i really do

[TechWins]

i wanna see M.A.D. i really do

Believe me, we all do! Even if a simple system of MAD was implemented I would be happy. I don't care too much about all the nuclear winter graphics and other goodies like that.

[dainbramaged13]

Originally posted by korn469
TechWins

i truly believe that those small changes which might take a couple of hours to do at most (a few minutes to do at least) would change the game to a significant degree in a very positive manner, ending vast exploitation of the game in the form of army laundering and ICS, plus it would make the game harder on diety

if only they see them i think they will consider them

dude, MAD, in a few hours!?!? even if they could do it in less than a day, i wouldn't want it, it would be so crappy! if mads not in, which i doubt it is, since firaxis is hyping all thier features, and its not one of them, youre gonna hvae to wait maybe for expansion pack or civ4 but even so... your demand for mad so late is unreasonable. youre really looking desparate now. A few months ago, even, it was a little late to ask for MAD, when youre HUGE thread popped up. (i know youd mentioned it before...) and now, it just makes you look like a desperate idiot with a one-track mind.

[korn469]

dainbramaged13

dude, MAD, in a few hours

if you had of read the post carefully you would have seen i was talking about changing granaries and the one pop must be working a tile rule, and not M.A.D. though we cannot say how much programming time it would take to implement M.A.D.

if mads not in, which i doubt it is, since firaxis is hyping all thier features, and its not one of them

well firaxis just sprange the whole civ atributes on us without hyping it, and like i said they have hyped something that sounds like M.A.D.

this is Jeff Briggs own words from the gamespot uk preview

"There are two types of nuclear weapon," says Briggs. "We have ICBMs that can hit anything on the map and tactical nukes which can be put on submarines and launched as cruise missiles. If you think that you can have a war and launch tactical nukes without it escalating to anything more serious you can try it, but it's a challenge in the game just to survive that whole era.

"The nuclear war part of the game should be (and this is something that we're working on) something that you come to and pass through. In Civ II it's sort of the end point. When you get nukes, everybody gets nukes and the game is pretty much over. In this game, if you're the first person to get them then you will have an opportunity to benefit, but once everybody else gets them it's unlikely that you can use them and have a successful game."

the screenshots back this up

A few months ago, even, it was a little late to ask for MAD, when youre HUGE thread popped up.

i've been asking for M.A.D. for over a year now, sometime in winter of 1999 is when i first started asking for it and i have had many huge threads on M.A.D.

it just makes you look like a desperate idiot with a one-track mind.

if i am a desperate idiot with a one track mind so be it
i always wanted to be known for something
M.A.D. would be a good feature for civ3 to have and i hope it makes it into the game

btw other people have asked for other features, so they are all desperate idiots too?

Hopefully, things like the amount of increase graineries, libraries, and such bring can be edited. If not, edit the graineries out and see if it works.

[yin26]

so they are all desperate idiots too?

Now listen carefully. The ONLY desperate idiot around here is me...and I've been IT for two years. I simply REFUSE to let other people share the title now...

[korn469]

Mister Pleasant

without granaries then ICS will still be a strategy but not nearly as powerful as it was in Civ2, so your solution of editing out the granary is valid, but i hope that firaxis and not the players can fix this problems, and the scenario editor can't fix everything, some rules are built into the game and the player can't change them

in SMAC the player couldn't edit out population booms or change the value each level of morale provided

[korn469]

lol

Yin if you are the only desperate idiot maybe i can be an irredeemable fool

but i hope that firaxis and not the players can fix this problems, and the scenario editor can't fix everything, some rules are built into the game and the player can't change them

Yeah, I hope Firaxis releases a game and not a development platform (e.g. CTP and CTP2) myself.

SMAC also had its problems - most noticably the AIs insistence on ICSing sea cities. Game is pretty good ever since I altered alpha.txt so that no one can build sea cities (although you can still submerge regular cities).

But again, a functioning game out of the box would be nice for a change.

[Father Beast]

Originally posted by korn469
These are a few small last minute changes that are vital in my opinion to Civ3

1. All cities always need at least one population point per city who cannot be made into a specialist.

It's anti-ICS, anti-army laundering, anti-cheese! It's simple elegent, and easy to understand. It floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee, it's like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow! It's less cheating! Works Great! Civ3 needs this!

OK, it could be put in at this point, but I still question whether it should. I realize it would deal with a lot of problems, but it makes me nervous. could work.

Originally posted by korn469
2. Granaries should at most reduce the food requirements by 30%. (even 1/3 could be too much)

Granaries will bring back ICS if granaries work like they do in civ2, so please change granaries so they won't reduce food required by more than 30%. It will make all the difference needed in the game! Please please please!

This is quite a good idea, and if the files are editable as we want them to be, a little balancing during testing could put this change in easily.

I understand that (again, if the game is editable enough) you could change them to suit you whim after getting it, and then nobody would play MP with you (if there is MP) because you're too "wimpy" to play by the original rules and ICS with the rest. also, your comparison games would be disallowed because you're not playing with the original rules. if they fix it before shipping, however, everybody has a challenge, and none of the others wil sneer at you for not playing with the "original" set, as if the original rules are holy writ...
(sigh) people are stupid. Wizards first rule)

Originally posted by korn469
3. Add the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.) to civ3.

It will reinvigorate the modern age, it will balance gameplay at the end of the game, and it will make civ3 the best game ever. I've got M.A.D. on the brain! Civ3 has got to have it!



if you need full details on the strategy exploits these changes will end just ask me

support this thread people! let firaxis know you want these changes!

Sorry, but if its not in, its not in. might be, though. I can just see Firaxis just failing to tell us these little details. kind of like my own pet peeve, improved road and rail rules.

I support this thread!!

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by korn469
i asked for M.A.D. years ago, and i have continued to ask for it since then...does that count?

Yes, the key is to stop asking now

you have completely misunderstood me Sabre2th and i will edit my original post

what I mean is this

1. All cities always need at least one population point per city who cannot be made into a specialist.

So all this time, we were talking about different workers. I don't have a strong opinion on this, now that I know what you're talking about.

[korn469]

Yes, the key is to stop asking now

even if it doesn't come out in Civ3 there is always the expansion

So all this time, we were talking about different workers. I don't have a strong opinion on this, now that I know what you're talking about.

yes we were talking about completely different things

OK, it could be put in at this point, but I still question whether it should. I realize it would deal with a lot of problems, but it makes me nervous. could work.

now unless they have changed how military unhappiness in republic and democracy works (and they might have) then this is essential, because otherwise, a player could base all of his units in a single city and then goto war and not have to worry about unhappiness, because the units are now supported by gold a single city could support them all, and if the city is a size one city and its only population point is an entertainer, then no unrest is caused by a massive military invasion

also this prevents ICS because in civ2 if you built too many cities under monarchy for example then many (all?) of your cities would have one extra unhappy person if you are playing on deity this means that your size one city would then be unhappy, well in civ2 no big deal you just turn this population point into an entertainer...in civ3 you would have to carefully plan expansion

also the new nationality segment of civ3 could benefit

player launches a blitzkrieg across a large continant...now instead of dealing with the unhappiness that player just turns all of the people into entertainers and now they won't revolt because they are no longer unhappy, so a whole entire feature has now been undermined, there was increased unhappiness when you took an enemy city in SMAC, and usually if you took a great number of enemy cities in a single turn this is what the player would do

it would solve a great number of problems in civ3, and it would be very simple to implement, it is by far the most important change they could make at this stage

I understand that (again, if the game is editable enough) you could change them to suit you whim after getting it, and then nobody would play MP with you (if there is MP) because you're too "wimpy" to play by the original rules and ICS with the rest. also, your comparison games would be disallowed because you're not playing with the original rules. if they fix it before shipping, however, everybody has a challenge, and none of the others wil sneer at you for not playing with the "original" set, as if the original rules are holy writ

Father Beast this is exactly how i feel on editing the game! That is the reason why i think it is vital for Civ3 to be balanced out of the box

[tniem]

Originally posted by korn469
1. All cities always need at least one population point per city who cannot be made into a specialist.

Simple rule change, good idea.

2. Granaries should at most reduce the food requirements by 30%. (even 1/3 could be too much)

The ICS thread proved this to be necessary. I will suppor the idea.

3. Add the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.) to civ3.

I hope that MAD has already been added. If not Firaxis has dropped the ball on this one. But as you have indicated it appears that Firaxis has at least indicated that MAD has been considered. They hopefully have given some attempts at including it.


And Yin, you are the only desperate idiot? You obviously have been reading a different forum than I have.

[yin26]

Few people have worked as hard as I have to prove his idiocy. Surely you'll run with me on that one.

P.S. Nice sig! Spread the word, brother!

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by yin26
Few people have worked as hard as I have to prove his idiocy. Surely you'll run with me on that one.

P.S. Nice sig! Spread the word, brother!

Now listen carefully. The ONLY desperate idiot around here is me...and I've been IT for two years.

So you are the one who last longer, but you aren't necessary the greatest idiot around...

Not to mention I can be the largest: my weight is over 100Kg (around 230 lb).