Worthless unit

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Upon reflection, I've changed my mind. I think I can honestly say that there are only three units I've never, ever built: partisans, galleons, and frigates. But partisans are quite nice when they're NON, and I do like it when I get galleons in a Leo upgrade. That leaves frigates, which really do seem utterly useless. Other thoughts:

Fanatics - I can't believe you guys think these are useless! I don't play fundy anymore, but when I did I loved them: same offense/defense as rifleman for 1/3 the cost, plus you don't have to support them. What's not to like?

Marines - Recently, I finally found a use for these guys. I was invading a series of small land masses in an era before flight or automobile (hence no battleships), but I had amphibious warfare. I had been invading with vet cavalry, but every time I did a number of them would be left out in the open and slaughtered by partisans or troops from a neighboring city afterwards. But with marines, I could attack straight from the transport and, once the city was taken, move the transport in to create a city full of defenders (effectively giving marines two moves, one to attack the city and one to enter it!). It really was very effective.



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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Mixam]

I think the having frigates and ironclads come at the same time in the tech tree was a bad decision for the programmers. I think frigates have their uses but it is very short lived. For attacking they are the same as ironclads and have the same movement. Only difference is 2 less defense and 1 less hp. Yes the 1 hp can make quite a difference but the frigate can carry 2 units. My rule of thumb is only attack with a frigate if it is a vet. In the frigates you send to attack have some diplos and some good defensive units. Bribe the city if it suits you. If not use a couple frigates to take out the defenders and move in some defensive units. The advantage of having a diplo in each frigate is that if you encounter ai boats alon the way bribe them instead of killing them. You will most likely get some non boats outta this. They are however best used with ironclads since they have very bad defense. Just stack an ironclad with each frigate and bribe and kill your way along the coastlines and the ocean will be yours.

I like fanatics too. Nice and cheap for their effectiveness. And they are good for stepwise rushbuilding. You can avoid researching conscription and fundamentalism if you get the SOL which is nice to do. Fanatics are as good as riflemen at defense and cost half as much. Not to mention don't cost support under fundy.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

quote: Originally posted by Mixam on 05-03-2001 02:56 AM My rule of thumb is only attack with a frigate if it is a vet.

Am I right in thinking that only someone with the Lighthouse is going to have vet frigates with any regularity? Is there sny other way (aside from surviving battle) to get vet ships at that stage?

The other thing that I find annoying about frigates is that, by the time I get magnetism, I'm in democracy, so frigates become a source of unhappiness. Galleons are preferable for that reason, too.

quote: I like fanatics too. Nice and cheap for their effectiveness. And they are good for stepwise rushbuilding. You can avoid researching conscription and fundamentalism if you get the SOL which is nice to do.

Actually, I don't think that's so. You have to research fundy, not just switch into it via the SoL, in order to get fanatics, just like you have to research communism, not just switch into it, in order to be able to build police stations and the UN.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Mixam]

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 05-03-2001 05:03 AM Actually, I don't think that's so. You have to research fundy, not just switch into it via the SoL, in order to get fanatics, just like you have to research communism, not just switch into it, in order to be able to build police stations and the UN.

I just checked and you are right on this and dammit you need conscription for fundy too.

As for getting vet frigates yes you would either need the lighthouse or would have to kill some units on the way along the coast. Port facilities are a while away yet.

Happiness probs I don't go into demo very often. I can get one or two turn advances in fundy without much effort. And while in fundy I don't need to worry about bribing cause I have so much money nobody can afford to bribe me except right after a big bribing fest or war effort.

[lord of the mark]

Least useful unit is Aircraft carrier - because of the combination of realism and unrealism in Civ.

To make an AC useful, i need a couple of bombers to pack offensive punch. Then i need defense against air (fighters or Aegis cruiser) against subs (destroyers or aegis to detect em, or fighters on regular patrol) and protection against surface ships (Battleship)

Now this is all quite realistic - an AC SHOULD have a full complement of planes and a full escort task force

but in the slow relative ship movement world of civ, assembling such a task force is time consuming and frustrating. Theres always an easier way to get the job done.

fanatics can be useful, eg when im taking cities with a large force of artillery, and have run out of defensive units to garrison the conquered cities. Instead of diverting one of my base cities from more useful things to build infantry, i can just build quick fanatics - can do it even in a city with zero shield production - they're cheap to rush buy, and require no support.

[Sieve Too]

Rufus:

quote: Am I right in thinking that only someone with the Lighthouse is going to have vet frigates with any regularity? Is there sny other way (aside from surviving battle) to get vet ships at that stage?

Lighthouse won't do it since it expires with Magnetism - the same advance that allows the building of Frigates. You have to survive a battle and be lucky to get vet Frigates. I guess with Sun Tzu you could eliminate the luck factor. Too much trouble IMHO. Concentrate on ground units or wait for better ships.

Marines have always been useless to me. If you bring along a couple Engineers and Alpines, you can get by with using Cavalry for attacks. Keeps you from having to research Amphibious Warfare.

I never build Cannons. Typically Cavalry are right around the corner so there's not much point to Cannons.

[Blaupanzer]

Don't recall ever having built a chariot, a frigate, a partisan, or a legion. All seem useful enough when they fall to me as a result of unit or city bribing. Not big on the government form, but Fanatics are very useful for defending the inner cities of the empire, releasing the previous defending units for use at the borders. Archers are the "most useless." Barb archers (bribed or not) don't seem to defend as two-strength units; and alternate defenders and attackers are cheaper when archers are available on the build list.

[Thranduil]

worthless units:

Chariots
Elephants
Legions
Explorers
Destroyers
Helicopters

Settlers

[Chainsaw]

I never build chariots. To me these are r eally useless. If I want to explore, I`ll build a horseman. One more attackpoint won`t make the diference I think if you encounter barbs or AI units.
One word to aircraft carriers: I don`t build them often. But there are some situations when they are rather useful. In awatrey world there`s sometimes need for transporting your planes from A to B without the possibility of building airbases / cities on the way. An AC with a couple of fighters for exploration and cruise missiles for big ships escorted by some heavy ships is cool for blocking sea passages.

[Mixam]

I don't build AC very often but I was wondering if anyone does this. Load up your AC with 16 bombers and then whatever else you want. Every time your AC runs outta movement surround it with 8 bombers. Then when you are gunna move again load them back up and when you stop use the other 8 bombers to surround the carrier. I never tried this but wonder if it works.

[East Street Trader]

Go fundy, set every city to turn out fanatics and then a couple of turns later (when you have lots of the little buggers) throw them at what remains of the A1 in a wave. The unit is so cheap you will swamp them. Alpine hordes won't be in it. Along the way you will lose a lot, I mean a real lot, of them. But two things about that. One, they want to die for the sacred cause. And two, it will make each move just slightly less boring (try giving instructions to a couple of hundred units each time - although I suppose DaveV will tell me this is condition normal) so you will be glad to see them get their wish fulfilled.

Sadly you gradually lose less and less as resistance crumbles and the final stages are truly a time consuming and dreary experience.

But I'm afraid it can't be said that they are useless.

I love bribing barb ships of all kinds - one of my best games was kick started by a lucky barb trireme that turned up just when I had built my first diplo and had a bit of hut money on hand, boy did the big routes go in quick in that game - but a frigate bribe has got to be my favourite. They sometimes appear quite early and you may be some way off that tech yourself. For a while they rule the seas and can carry your caravans in almost complete safety. And if you get lucky you decimate the A1's shipping. OK they don't seem to carry the punch of the ironclad when bombarding but they can still cut lines of communication to coastal cities so during the short time they rule they support invasion well.

But I don't build them either. There is too much to do during that period.

[drake]

If your playing style is to *explore*, the *explorer* is great. No one can get to the hard to reach huts faster in the game than the explorer.....

I usually build a few every game as soon as I get the chance. Definetly not on my useless list............not that anyone was asking

[Blaupanzer]

Dry,

I'm surprised that battleships make your list. They are great city busters, especially because of the high percentage of coastline on most random maps. Once the AI has cruise missiles, you need to protect them with AEGIS cruisers, but those cruisers do not have the busting power. They are expensive and slow-moving but not particularly vulnerable. As to the rest, looks well thought out.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

I must jump the bandwagon in defense of the poor explorer! Simply put, he's the fastest unit in the game until alpine troops are available. Sure, he's a wimp and uses up a shield, but will reap sometimes hundreds of gold, several units, and maybe an advanced tribe before barbarians spend a day playing football with his severed head.

Exploring is one of the more enjoyable parts of the game (perhaps why I live in the marches...), and my civ always has several explorers in service until later in the game.

Even after all has been discovered, they are useful for leading your troops into enemy territory. He moves ahead to scout; Your army knows where to safely go without risk of surprizing a camp of enemy bad guys.

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[Dry]

The only truly worthless unit for me is the explorer. Remove the need of support and I would surely build/use it.

Otherwise, they are a lot of units I do not build, but it does not mean I find them 'worthless':

Nukes and Missiles:
I never build them, and when I get them - they come with the city I bribed - I disband them, so I can rush (re)build the wall/SAM/SDI.

Legions, Marines, Battleships, Fregates, Catapults, Partisans.
I find them too expensive to build, but I am really very happy to get/buy them to hut/ennemy/barbarians.

Elephants, Ironclads, Canons, ... (here I think I forget some...):
I would like to build them, but usually they are obsolete so soon, I have no real time to build much of them.

Finaly there is the very special case of the riflemen:
I don't build them, because they were build as warrior, phalanx,..., upgraded by Leo and by the time I can build them, I prefer the alpine troops.

[East Street Trader]

Build just one explorer and watch the pace at which the fog of war is rolled back and you'll start being convinced. He works nearer three times as fast as a two legged unit than twice as fast (because he skips through two and three movement squares). Work him in conjunction with a diplo and a boat to tip huts and you'll:

1. Virtually never lose him;

2. Give up tipping huts any other way.

I described a method in a thread a while back so won't repeat it but if you just try using the three units together it starts being obvious what to do very quickly. Clear the fog away on each continent first, then methodically tip the huts, exploiting the coastline or the inland terrain to keep safe. If you ran into a continent comprising flatlands and nothing with many huts more than two squares from the coast you might need a second diplo for full security. But on ordinarily mixed terrain the three movement points of the explorer and the two movement and bribe ability of the dip will keep them secure.

You get to want some barb outcomes so that you can keep up the stream of good NONE units being sent home.

And when all exploring is finally done his three square movement and ignoring ZOC is still useful.

He is my next favourite after the caravan, the dip, the trireme and the ironclad.

[Like2frolick]

Useless?
Hardly...

[Maelhavok]

Explorers top my list. Why in the world do they have shield upkeep? I use dips and horsemen for exploration. They explore with multiple capabilities. I mostly concur with the rest of the list except fanatics(when I get them AI is doomed) and trierme(early necessity) I hope this doesn't refer to AI's use of units (their explorers bribe, their triermes don't sink).

[Dry]

quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer on 05-07-2001 02:43 PM Dry, I'm surprised that battleships make your list.

First, sorry for late answer, but I am not here every day.

Yes, battleships are on my list, because the window of usefulness for those queens of the seas is small. Yes, when cruise missiles comes, they cannot exit the harbour anymore. Aegis to escort? yes, but when you got Aegis, why do you need battleship anymore?
I found battleships usefull for:
- costal bombardement. Once the ennemy has coastal defense, they become useless for it, and Aegis can do as good in not harbour hexes.
- sink other battleship. Why should I do that? The AI suicide his battleships against my Alpine troop behind coastal defense.
- sink cruisers. An vet Aegis or a sub can do this as well.

So why should I build battleships?

[Scouse Gits]

EOL - your AI is permitted battleships! - Mine have not had a port city since shortly after I discovered Steam Engine!

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[EOL]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 05-11-2001 02:55 PM EOL - your AI is permitted battleships! - Mine have not had a port city since shortly after I discovered Steam Engine!

If I'm player a peaceful planet guardian style game .

EOL

[Scouse Gits]

"Guardian" style game peaceful ... tell that to Neil Hamilton!
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SGs in something liquid

[EOL]

Having a couple of battleships to protect your transports on the open seas maybe? Wouldn't want mine to run into AI battleships.

EOL

[Blaupanzer]

Okay, I'll bite. Who is Neil Hamilton?

Still think a vet BB is more than adequate to empty a port (with or without coastal fortress) in SP. Then you sail in a transport load or two of land units and obliterate the opponent on his own railroad. Note that "vet comes from earlier efforts prior to ports and cruise missiles. After these come, I sail them home for coastal defense until I have enough AEGIS to defend them and the transports. Bombers just can't do this, and howies have to get on shore to help. Oh well, whatever works for you.