Proposal: a "no AI help" AC challenge

EOL · April 25, 2001, 14:24

I'm glad Samson's research is done, I think we'll all be playing as the purple civ

or would that be considered cheating too

?

EOL

Deity Dude · April 25, 2001, 15:04

I like the idea, probably because I hardly ever deal with the AI or bribe and therefore feel handicapped when comparing results to those who do.

From a mechanical standpoint, do you have a choice to refuse a tech on city conquest and how would you manage no huts or is that why you're asking a scenario developer to set this up.

Paul · April 25, 2001, 16:39

If you don't want any AI influence at all, you could also play a game with only the human player and no AI civs, like we had in one of the OCC fortnight scenarios. You'll have to edit one of the text files to play with only one civ; I don't remember exactly what should be changed, but I could look it up if anybody is interested.

Scouse Gits · April 25, 2001, 17:06

I'm buried under marking at the moment, but I'm in - probably not finish before high summer though...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Scouse Gits · April 25, 2001, 17:09

[ot]DaveV - I have just discovered the rome scenario following LaFayette's prompting and am getting close to his 100 year challenge - but to do this I am heavily relying on trade as an alternative to research - what kind of dates did you achieve without AI intercourse??[/ot] Sorry

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

[Edit - just read the 'Delenda sunt ...' thread properly - sorry]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited April 25, 2001).]

DaveV · April 26, 2001, 00:59

This thread is in no way meant to denigrate the remarkable accomplishments in early AC arrival lately. I take my hat off to those who have pushed the boundaries of Civ II. But I hate spending lots of time in the diplomatic screen talking to the wretched AI leaders. In the Rome scenario, I had the most fun when none of the AIs would talk to me and I could just move my units and manage my civ.

In short, I propose the following: a race to AC where the human player is not allowed to talk to any of the AIs. No tech trading/gifting, no tribute/gifts. The easiest way to set this up is via the events.txt file, so that would leave out 2.42 players. Further suggestions: no city bribing by the human player, no barbarians. The former rule removes yet another way for the human to make the game easier; the latter helps reduce the "luck factor" in comparing results. Much as I hate the empty celebrating city syndrome, barbarians are a potential bonanza to a good human player.

The idea is to have a 4000 BC save game which all participants would play to defeat or AC landing. I could set one up for MGE, but if a FW owner could set up the scenario that might allow a few more people to participate. I suggest a medium map, 7 civs, deity, random start.

Edit: I forgot to mention no huts, no techs on city conquest, and no tech stealing by the human. You get to AC the old fashioned way... you earrrrn it.

You can download the file here.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited May 04, 2001).]

DaveV · April 26, 2001, 07:33

quote:

Originally posted by DaveV on 04-25-2001 12:59 PM
I could set one up for MGE, but if a FW owner could set up the scenario that might allow a few more people to participate.

Never mind, after further thought I've realized I can set it up myself in 2.42.

quote:

Originally posted by EOL on 04-25-2001 02:24 PM
I think we'll all be playing as the purple civ or would that be considered cheating too?

Not cheating, but it would remove a strategic element from the game. Do you try to pump caravans to the purple civ, build cities near him and hope he steals tech, build roads by his cities for him, etc.? Or just suffer with the penalty and hope it increases the value of your caravans?

quote:

Originally posted by Paul on 04-25-2001 04:39 PM
If you don't want any AI influence at all, you could also play a game with only the human player and no AI civs, like we had in one of the OCC fortnight scenarios.

No, I'm looking for AI competition to make the game more interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Deity Dude on 04-25-2001 03:04 PM
From a mechanical standpoint, do you have a choice to refuse a tech on city conquest and how would you manage no huts or is that why you're asking a scenario developer to set this up.

Yes, it's a scenario option.

[ot]SG[1] - research? We don't need any stinkin' research![/ot]

La Fayette · April 26, 2001, 08:56

quote:

In the Rome scenario, I had the most fun when none of the AIs would talk to me and I could just move my units and manage my civ.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited April 25, 2001).]

Did you finish it, Dave?
As my previous results were obtained with use of caravan rehoming, I started a new game as leader of Carthage last week (without any rehoming, of course): 90 years.
Come on, guys! Have a try!: no huts to tip, no techs available to guess, no wonders to build! It's plain civ2: trading and fighting, with luck factor reduced to almost nil.
(for those having fun with larger maps, you can have a try at ww2 scenario; a few months ago, someone wrote about a challenge: winning without time limit BUT playing as the Spanish; I tried it while on vacation: believe me, it's FUN, since the big three, Russians, Axis and Allies, are really MUCH stronger than you are; I hope to be winning to morrow by the end of 1961; tell you about it when it's over).

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

La Fayette · April 26, 2001, 10:13

OK, Dave.
I should have read 'Delenda sunt..' before posting this.
I won't be trying any challenge in the near future... just sharpening my sword (and my brains, if possible).

DaveV · April 30, 2001, 09:55

Download the file from here. Play as the Romans.

WARNING: stop reading now if you're going to play this game! Later posts in this thread will give you information that could influence your play.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited May 03, 2001).]

Scouse Gits · April 30, 2001, 10:44

Got it - Rome founded - expect my next report in 2002 ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Scouse Gits · April 30, 2001, 14:29

Had three spare hours before a night class - horrible things ...

1 AD summary ...

25 cities Monarchy, Hanging Gardens & Colossus in Rome

Supreme (about double the score of the Greeks who are second)

First in Science with 15 techs - half way to Trade - research 6 turns/tech
Monarchy, Mysticism, Philosophy and Polytheism are 'white'

I destroyed the Mongols in 1950BC
Germans destroyed the Aztecs in 300BC

Monarchy established 1850BC
HG - 625BC
Col - 300BC

The Empire continues ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

EOL · May 2, 2001, 18:57

Another 1AD summary

Monarchy (from 1850BC) 20 cities - 2 size 4, 8 size 3, 5 size 2, 5 size 1.

Hanging gardens (375BC) and Colossus (50BC) (couldn't get them in the same city).

Mongols destroyed by warrior in 2950BC (they attacked out of city!).
14 techs - first to Alphabet, Code of Laws, Literacy, Monarchy, Philosophy, Trade. Researching Masonry (8 turns).

Supreme - over 2 times German score.

Advisors:

Military - We need more weapons technology.
Science - We're #1!
Trade - Build Marketplaces
Foreign - Go explore (to find other nations).
Attitude - We should raise the luxury rate.

Seen a few triremes but no battles yet (other than Mongols

).

Edit: Was repeating myself

[This message has been edited by EOL (edited May 03, 2001).]

Scouse Gits · May 3, 2001, 05:54

EOL - a pre-trade wonder tip -- build horsemen (Horsebackriding was my 1st tech choice) in outlying cities and disband in the capital for a quick 10 wonder shields ...
Good game - your cities are bigger than mine

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited May 03, 2001).]

EOL · May 3, 2001, 07:12

Cheers, I have plenty of horses but I figured I may need them for defense, not yet as it turns out.

EOL

DaveV · May 4, 2001, 13:01

Well, since we're comparing...

Romans at AD1:
15 cities, 1 size 1, 2 size 2, 8 size 3, 3 size 4, 1 size 12

.
17 techs, Alphabet, Banking, Code of Laws, Construction, Engineering, Monarchy, and Trade are white. Invention is one beaker short of being discovered.
Hanging Gardens (-700) and Colossus (-500) in Ravenna.
Monarchy in -2450. Researching horseback riding as my 5th tech meant the Mongols slaughtered four of my warriors, but I'm holding them off now with a fortified vet phalanx on a river.
18 trade routes established with Ravenna so far, max payoff was 132 gold.

This is an awfully slow moving game; the infinite caravan sleaze takes an lot of micromanagement, even without chatting up the AIs every turn.

EOL · May 4, 2001, 14:00

Its probably better to play as you have and leave the Mongols in. The purple civ became the Sioux and restarted on the other side of the world so I'm having all kinds of trouble helping them out with any techs.

EOL

Scouse Gits · May 4, 2001, 14:51

I can think of few fates worse than sharing a small continent with technologically equivalent Mongols - I stick by my decision - the Indians have since appeared on the same continent as the Germans and Japanese - I now 460AD - have a beachhead on this continent and have accidently acquired Washington on the other major continent - both will soon hope to become sleaze centres - I have the Lighthouse, Cope's and have just (460) built Mike's about 41 cities and am now four times ahead of the second civ on the powergraph (Greek/German/Japanese virtually tying) - The Empire continues ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Smash · May 4, 2001, 15:27

Would be fair to build the Great Library?

EOL · May 4, 2001, 15:35

Do you mean to build it and then allow the purple's to capture the city?

EOL

Smash · May 4, 2001, 17:03

No build and most likely "fill in" techs....like I did.Got 4 techs so far when it occured this is supposed to be no ai help.So is the Graet Library considered help?

Scouse Gits · May 4, 2001, 17:16

We think it's legit, Smash - SG2 has rejected it - I guess he will post a log over the w/e - I'm (SG1) stalled at 460 (game at work) and haven't decided whether or not to blow 6 carries on it ...
______________
The SGs in South African Red (is that PC these days?

)

Scouse Gits · May 8, 2001, 10:43

1000 AD update --

Lost my way a little, slept through not one but two oedo years, went Republic in 700AD

Supreme - now 5 times better than Indians/Greeks/Germans all tied in second
Population 5.04 m; 49 cities, 1@12, 2@7, 8@5, 16@4, 10@3, 9@2 & 3@1

No 1 in Science: 26 techs, 9 white, Invention next turn; 4 turns/tech

7 WoWs: HG, C, L, GL!, MC, CO & ME on course for Super Ironclads

This is certainly not going to be a record, but I shall arrive.

The Empire continues ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited May 08, 2001).]

EOL · May 8, 2001, 16:14

Hmmm! I found that I haven't been getting enough cities down in the early AD. A mistake i often make, lots of other stuff to worry about

.

Anyway - 1000AD.

Supreme 3-4 times the others (all about the same).
27 cities. 3 size 8, 1 size 7, 8 size 6, 2 size 5, 2 size 4, 10 size 3, 1 size 2. Republic government.

No. 1 in science - 25 techs, 12 white. T of Gravity next (4 turns/tech)

HG, MC, C, CO.

Probably a mid 1800's landing at this rate

.

The Foreign Minister is still as keen as ever to find other nations. Killed
some offensive looking Greeks who had the cheek to land on my main island

.

EOL

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"One day your life is going to flash before your eyes, make sure it is worth watching."

VetLegion · May 8, 2001, 20:34

Well, today I had free time, I wanted to do some online catching up, but my ISP was broke. So I accidentaly found I have downloaded this scenario earlier and I played it.

W A R N I N G! Perhaps a spoiler ahead. If you havent finished it yet, you should not read on because I reveal some in game information about your enemy civ locations.

I really, really dont like landing on AC

so I did a conquest game. I thought it would be nice to try the limitations (noAIspeak) and see if they affected my strategy. And also, this can give you folks something to compare with if someone else tries the conquest.

here is a little report (I havent kept exact log)

year: 1500 AD
victory type: victory by conquest
tech path: horseback - monarchy - philosophy - monotheism. Detracted for mapmaking. After monoteism, maxed the gold.
losses: approx 60 units of which 50 are crusaders. Loss to kill ratio 1:3
(havent produced veteran units or Sun tzu)

play time: ? hours in two sessions
avg time per turn: ?

wonders of significance: lighthouse and michalangelo. Later stole or built some with excess production, but without relevance to game outcome.

home cities on continent: 12 I think
captured cities: around 40 (mongols 4, americans 2, japanese 4, sioux 1, germans 8, greeks 5, carthagians 1)
(founded some later on out of a habit, but no use for them) connected some cities with roads and repopulated some areas. I am a perfectionist in soul

how it went: assessed the limitations. previously depended on stupid AI to sign peace all the time, so decided to double minimal invasion forces now from 2-4 to 4-8 crusaders because of possible counter-attacks. (havent really sticked to it, relied on lots of triremes and gold for swift reinforcements)

With horseback I discovered early that I was alone on the island which made me find mapmaking very early. Used settlers to calm down cities and build the wonders (2 of them). By 1 AD discovered all opponents and most of the map. Waited for monotheism and built michalangelos very soon with settlers diplomats and horses, whichever fitted best. Switched to crusaders. Went west (Mongols) first, when they were soon to be finished went simultaneously north to Germans (which previously killed Aztecs and two more civs). in parralell with Germans destructed big part of Americans (far east) except walled capitol and some Greeks (east). Around 1200 had everyone down to 1 city but found out restart is on so decided to wait 1500 AD (to avoid having to search icecaps or similar areas). Somwhere in between got bored and kicked ass anyway. Spent next turns to find Carthagians only city (large island north of Mongol mainland) and eliminate it at 1500 when restart stops officially. Finished with loads of cash and sentried units

resume: everything went as planned, tactical performance lacked sometimes, but good all around. if not for indecisevness near the end could perhaps have done it hundred or so years earlier.

bad moves: overestimated the AI agressiveness and discovered bronze working and feudalism for defense, which proved unneeded.
overproduced diplomats to destroy city walls which proved unneeded as AI didnt even have vet defender phalanxes (mostly regular phalanxes, some archers and warriors), let alone pikemen.

key to victory: finding them emmediatelly and attacking previous to their dicovery of pikemen. What could have caused trouble? AI building Great Wall in a city not easy to reach from the coast.

No AC but fun anyway

Scouse Gits · May 9, 2001, 05:20

Hi VetLegion - good game, but our Mongols started on the same island as us (EOL & I)

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

Scouse Gits · May 9, 2001, 09:50

Yes - me too! The destruction of the Mongols on my patch was the first objective.

-----------

SG(2)

Smash · May 9, 2001, 15:50

That must be a different game cuz this is a scenario and there are(were

) Mongols on that isle

VetLegion · May 9, 2001, 17:41

perhaps a different file then. I downloaded from DaveVs site, so I dont know. But I definately started alone on the island/continent? (puzzled smiley)

DaveV · May 16, 2001, 13:07

Vet Legion - I botched the events.txt of my first attempt and tried again. But I'm sure I only uploaded one file to the website. Strange...

Status as of AD1000:
32 techs, 17 white. 4 turns/tech. I established an embassy with the Mongols and discovered they have a grand(?) total of 8 techs

.

Wonders:
Hanging Gardens (700 BC)
Colossus (550 BC)
Statue of Liberty (AD100)
Leonardo's Workshop (AD280)

27 cities: 1 size 20, 1 size 4, 7 size 3, 14 size 2, 4 size 1.

Still commie after all these years...