Refrigeration and Advanced Irrigation

[Wotan]

I have a question regarding the 'Refrigeration' technological advance, along with the Supermarket building and the enhanced irrigation capability it brings...

As you all know these were added in Civ II to increase food production and allow for larger capacity cities. I was wondering if these features are still available in Civ III, however? Thus far, I have not come upon any screen shots which indicate a second level of irrigation on the main maps. This was one of my favorite features in Civ II, but some felt it was a bit much having to re-irrigate every previously irrigated field once refrigeration was discovered. Rather than finding it annoying, I appreciated the modern looking appeal that my civ took on in the process, as well as the obvious advantage of increased food production.

Thanks,


-W

[Sava]

It looks to me that TI's aren't as prevelant in the earlier Civ games. This is a good thing. So much of Civ's I and ][ were just about building settlers and improving tiles. I'm sorry, but that is stupid.

TI's should be scaled down as much as possible. I hope there isn't another level of irrigation. It takes away the focus and bogs up the game. The larger your empire gets, the more time you waste building irrigation. If I had my way, I'd automate the whole thing.

Russia waged war on Afghanastan for 12 years. The Soviets sent their best trained and most well armed troops into that guerilla filled country. The Afghans survived. You think their scared of a few "smart" bombs?

[Wexu]

I agree with SoulAssassin!

And when thinking about multiplayer, less micromanagement = better.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I disagree to an extent, I like to see the cities growing... but to have good automated settlers would help a lot (to have an option what to automatically improve for example)

[Pingu:]

In terms of micromanagement, I'd like to be able to automate some of it, but the idea of letting an AI build my railroads fills me with dread! so ugly!

Regarding Refrigeration, I think that it's a historically inappropiate choice to me.

The Agricultural revolution (in Europe) started in the 18th century, and was the precursor to the industrial revolution, and caused a massive population boom, and urbanisation in the now 'developed' world....

What refrigeration is meant to represent, I don't quite know.

Is there an 'Agricultural revolution' advance in Civ 3?

Perhaps this should even be a Wonder... enabling the owning Civ a food production advantage that the rest of the world doesn't cathc up with until they gat refrigeration??? don't know... probably not.

Pingu:

[TCO]

Originally posted by Wotan
Rather than finding it annoying, I appreciated the modern looking appeal that my civ took on in the process, as well as the obvious advantage of increased food production.

Thanks,


-W

We have mighty legions and the will to fight. Let us go forth!

Don't be such a wimpy builder...

[Akron]

Originally posted by Wotan
I have a question regarding the 'Refrigeration' technological advance, along with the Supermarket building and the enhanced irrigation capability it brings...

As you all know these were added in Civ II to increase food production and allow for larger capacity cities. I was wondering if these features are still available in Civ III, however? Thus far, I have not come upon any screen shots which indicate a second level of irrigation on the main maps. This was one of my favorite features in Civ II, but some felt it was a bit much having to re-irrigate every previously irrigated field once refrigeration was discovered. Rather than finding it annoying, I appreciated the modern looking appeal that my civ took on in the process, as well as the obvious advantage of increased food production.

Thanks,


-W

I feel the same way about the double irrigation. There has to be something to show that farming in the later ages is more productive than in earlier ages. Anyway, I can't stand the ugly irrigation tiles in civ3 screenshots. As for it being too much micromanagement, I'm sure that firaxis has come up with a better automated worker that you can tell what to do and what not to do, so it won't stupidly build railroads everywhere. Also, I hope that cities can grow even bigger than in civ 2.

[jsw363]

It might be cool if a tile became irrigated after a worker worked it for 20 turns. That way you wouldn't have to worry about doing it manually, but it wouldn't come easily. Aren't things like irrigation, TIs that the gov't has little to do with? Shouldn't the farmers create irrigation on their own? This is probably a suggestion though that couldn't be put easily into the game.

I had always considered refrigeration to be the logical 'successor' to pottery--in terms of food storage, preservation, and so forth. In my mind, it was the ability to preserve the food for a longer period of time that equated to a 'richer harvest.' Of course, given that premise it would probably be more accurate to have had a mid-step between the two where the use of salt as a preservative came into use.

Personally, I enjoy improving the terrain and 'growing' my cities, but I admit that if the automation capability of formers/workers was robust and reliable, I wouldn't mind turning them loose to perform those functions w/o my micromanagement. As it is (or at least, has been) my intervention is necessary in order to accomplish what I want/need.

[Inverse Icarus]

i personally like micromanagement, but i'm a freak.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Wotan
Rather than finding it annoying, I appreciated the modern looking appeal that my civ took on in the process, as well as the obvious advantage of increased food production.

I agree with above. I enjoyed the second-level of improved farmland in Civ-2, and I hope they are still in - otherwise there is not that much left to do, for a late-game worker-upgraded engineer.

And the engineer-unit seems to be in, according to THIS REPLY:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
I can tell just from glancing at these screens that almost every one of them has changed rather significantly since these were taken. Workers are a perfect example, as you no longer get ancient-era workers running around in the industrial era -- they change to a more "modernized" worker.

[colossus]

I think the refrigeration as it was in civ2 is not that logical. Modern farming achieves greater yield of food by breeding better crops, more systematic management of field, better understanding of the biology of the plants and animals, not some absurd extra irrigation. Older people could remember Green revolution referred to the intoduction of extremely high yielding crops, not more extensive irrigation. Referigeration, canning and inanimated transportation also helps reduce the amount of food lost, effectively raising production.

So, the food increase comes from better knowledge and transportation network, not some extra dykes or canals. IMO, the model for refrigeration is inappropriate. It makes more sense if the tech just make for increased production in grassland and plains, without additional efforts, which should also be nice as it reduces micromanagement.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by colossus
Modern farming achieves greater yield of food by breeding better crops, more systematic management of field, better understanding of the biology of the plants and animals, not some absurd extra irrigation. [...]
So, the food increase comes from better knowledge and transportation network, not some extra dykes or canals.

Why taking it so literally?

Just because the first level of food-tile improvement stands for "irrigation", doesnt mean that the second level means "even more irrigation". Obviously the second level of food-tile improvement means modern fertilization, mechanized agriculture, crop-development and whatnot. Isnt that obvious?

It makes more sense if the tech just make for increased production in grassland and plains, without additional efforts, which should also be nice as it reduces micromanagement.

If you dont have to work for it - you wont valuate & appreciate it either. Thats an old truth that many young spoiled, workshy millionaire-inheritors have discovered.

Also, just as you cannot get veteran & elite-hardened war-units (and even great leaders) without micromanage these units in combat-situations - likewise, you cannot expect to get improved farmlands without micromanage your civil terrain-improving units on already irrigated tiles.

If one should get increased food-output automatically and instantly "without additional effort" - why shouldnt one also get veteran -> elite - great leaders automatically and instantly "without additional effort"?

[korn469]

If you dont have to work for it - you wont valuate & appreciate it either. Thats an old truth that many young spoiled, workshy millionaire-inheritors have discovered.

Also, just as you cannot get veteran & elite-hardened war-units (and even great leaders) without micromanage these units in combat-situations - likewise, you cannot expect to get improved farmlands without micromanage your civil terrain-improving units on already irrigated tiles.

If one should get increased food-output automatically and instantly "without additional effort" - why shouldnt one also get veteran -> elite - great leaders automatically and instantly "without additional effort"?

Exactly!

i know we have disagreed over things in the past Ralf, but i have the exact same feelings as what you expressed in the above statement when it comes to gameplay

[hetairoi22]

Originally posted by UberKruX
i personally like micromanagement, but i'm a freak.

I agree! I want it to be exactly how I want it, with the most possible strategies and ways to improve my land!

[Inverse Icarus]

i hear all this stuff about the PW system of CTP, and i dn't like that at all, but then again i haven't played CTP.

sometimes i want to build roads to areas, not seccessarily in my borders.

and in MP i often help out allied humans with stuff (i usually have 1-2 settlers per city)

[Tventano]

How can you ever try to be better than the AI if there is no micromanagement? Getting dirty hands by doing something yourself makes your civ alive, instead of an illustrated spreadsheet. For this same reason I cannot understand people who claim to love Civ and at the same time want public works.

Some automation could be nice, like building a road between two cities. But why should the automation available to players have the same intelligence as the AI? Let the AI use some smarter algorithm than is available to the lazy human player.

[saracen31]

I liked creating farmland in Civ II myself, but I can understand some wanting to move away from the double micromanagement. We have seen screenshots with at least better-looking irrigation in more modern times:

http://bonusweb.cz/obrazek.html?obra...ion3_scr29.jpg

Much prettier than the ancient irrigation. But I do think there needs to be some means of representing the rapid growth of cities due to vastly superior farming/storage technology. I don't mind the farmland, but I don't have a better solution than what they already did.

[jsw363]

Originally posted by saracen31
We have seen screenshots with at least better-looking irrigation in more modern times

Is that irrigation? It looks like fungus. Maybe this means that they're still tweaking it...

[isaac brock]

well you probably haven't seen much farming because we haven't got many modern screenshots. but i think the one you linked to is a very early screenshot, and that irrigation is much uglier than normal

[colossus]

I could understand many people like micomanagment so they can have an edge over the AIs. It is fun in the early game when decision between roadbuilding or an irrigation is important, but by the time you reach refrigeration, the question is a no brainer. You would like to irrigate, at the second level, all over the map, and you have the manpower to do so. Quite monotonous.

Just because the first level of food-tile improvement stands for "irrigation", doesnt mean that the second level means "even more irrigation". Obviously the second level of food-tile improvement means modern fertilization, mechanized agriculture, crop-development and whatnot. Isnt that obvious?

This is exactly what the second level of irrigation is, but, what workers have to do with 'modern fertilization, mechanized agriculture, crop-development and whatnot'? Workers or engineers are meant to do public works and infrastructure, not private development. Shields from mining do increase from tech without further micromanagement, why not food production.

Personally I feel that insensible feature are acceptable as long as it is fun and enhance gameplay, just like caravan. But I don't see how that second level irrigation make for better gameplay or is sensible.

[Stromprophet]

I don't know about anyone else. But I have never once irrigated on any multiplayer game. Ever. And I have lost only a handful of times. It's not important in multiplayer.(Most of us played on Doubles anyway, so really how much could it matter)

But I do like it for extended game purposes, whether that be AI, scenario, or even purposeful long games imposed by a group of players.