(1)Advanced tribes; (2) Barb warning

[East Street Trader]

Two little things which I've noticed recently.

The first concerns advanced tribes. You know how you sometimes find them and they are already size three or more with one or a number of improvements already built? Well I have noticed recently that it is the player's discovery of Invention that triggers the finding of the developed advanced tribes. Sort of pay off I suppose for the fact that after Invention you get no more advances from huts.

Anyway, it is not quite simultaneous with the discovery of Invention because, after I strated to suspect the existence of the trigger, I also noticed a case in the next game where I got an advanced tribe the turn after getting Invention and it was a bog standard, one citizen/no improvements tribe. But the more developed ones then started in that game too. So I think the trigger may be Invention plus a move or two (or conceivably a hut tip or two), then they start.

For what little it is worth I have long suspectd (from nothing more than gameplay experience) that the advanced tribe outcome gets an edge where the hut tipped is the first on a continent with no cities.

Anyway, this observation has been enough to change my attitude to researching Invention. I always used to want to go for it as soon as available because it is an important branch in the tech tree leading on to some vital techs which it pays to get early. But I usually held back where I had plenty of huts to tip (not uncommon for me as I defer tipping after founding a capital til I can do it with a specialist team).

Just now, though, I'm going straight for it. Just love advanced tribes. Just love developed advanced tribs even more.

The second point is a small one. I give exploration a high priority throughout but the time it really matters above almost everything is in the opening phase if you share your continent with another civ. Find them early and you have more options. If they've got two or three cities down it is pretty well a sure thing that you will have to face the distraction of an early war of conquest.

Well the point is the message which you get that barbs have spawned or landed. It is only the civ with the nearest city which gets the message.

So my notion is to look out for early barbs appearing out of the fog of war when I have notpreviously received such a message. When that happens I can conclude that there is probably another civ on my continent (and redouble my exploring).

It's not foolproof because the barbs may spawn or land at a point where a foreign city on a different continent happens to be closer than my nearest city. But that possibility does not, for me, make a working hypothesis based on the idea worthless.

I'll let you know if this does me any good.

[rah]

"Anyway, it is not quite simultaneous with the discovery of Invention because, after I strated to suspect the existence of the trigger, I also noticed a case in the next game where I got an advanced tribe the turn after getting Invention and it was a bog standard, one citizen/no improvements tribe. But the more developed ones then started in that game too. So I think the trigger may be Invention plus a move or two (or conceivably a hut tip or two), then they start."


Even after the trigger (whatever it is) is tripped, it is still posible to get a 1 sized city. A couple of years ago, I looked into this thinking it was triggered by year, and could never prove anything. But anyway, after tipping a hut and getting a sized three city with a market and an aquaduct, I reset and tipped the hut again. A size 1 city wo/improvements was created. I reset a few more times and got a wide variety of city sizes/improvements. SO don't let the fact that you got a 1 sized city throw you off. Reset a few times to verify.

RAH

[rah]

And yes, i've also used barbs to clue me in on the existance of other civs on the same land mass. (WO/messages or those tripped by huts) It's even a bigger tipoff when you encounter them and they are already injured.

RAH

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Yes, barbarian proximity tells of the presence of cities - but it can also mean somebody else has tipped a hut nearby. In that case, you also get no warning message.

Barbarian pirates will only land when close enough to an occupied city - 6 rows/columns away? I can't remember, but there is a fixed distance within which they will disembark. If you have no defender, they apparently don't smell you and leave you alone for a while.

On that note, why do barbarians ignore the AI unless they crash into them? I've seen a barbarian march on a straight line within 2 squares of 4 AI cities, only to swerve off course to attack my city!

Play experience leads me to agree that the remotest huts are more likely to turn up advanced tribes. On a giant Mediterranean map with all civs starting more or less by the sea, it's almost assured that a trip to the steppes of the Ukraine will result in finding some new tribes to bring into the fold. In this case, they are still on the same continent, but very far away. The separate continent hypothesis is on the right track, as well. Time period probably also plays a role - when you are sufficiently impressive to sway them to join you, perhaps?

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited May 10, 2001).]

[East Street Trader]

It is certainly true that pirates only land when there is a city close at hand - in my current game there is one of those barb boats which you sometimes see endless hanging about off a remote, uninhabited but visible, coast. And I remember a period when I used to send a diplo off, hoping his presence would trip them to land and I'd get a shot at bribing the boat. It doesn't work. A city it must be.

But once they start landing they don't have to land right next to the city. So when the boat is in a narrow channel I have often seen one or two barb units put down on each side.

But such an event is rare compared to the many situations where barbs get to be generated by the presence or activities of an enemy civ.

In the games I've been playing (early Republic) once the developed advanced tribes started I have had a succession of them. Different sizes and different buildings certainly, but all developed in some way. When I used to re-load after disappointing outcomes I noticed that the developers have written in a small deterent in that the second and all subsequent times you fight a battle you do so at some disadvantage. So a battle very narrowly lost the first time fought may require twenty subsequent replays to get a win whereas the ordinary odds would suggest that two or three times ought to be giving good chances. Something similar may be operating in the case of re-loaded huts.

But I have only been watching the developed advanced tribe thing for two or three gams so I can see that you may well be right. I'm not doing too great at getting to the bottom of the style of early Republic which I've been trying so I'll keep watching.

[War4ever]

I have been one to believe that advanced tribes which are far away from your central estate are often outposts generated to allow quicker contact with the ai......

Say perhaps an ai on a different continent...... the tribe is sort of pointing you in the direction of your rival.

As for those tribes with improvements..... if it is multiple structures, i often sell one which is costing me money right away and then figure out if i need the others..... usually the market as the corruption makes it highly unlikely it is paying for itself.....after that its the granary...

I wonder if their is only a few improvements you can receive.... ie never seen a bank..... nor a university.... makes me believe that only "first round improvements" can be given for free....

I have seen an aquaduct.... library, grainery, market, barracks, and harbours

never coastal forts though

[solo]

East Street Trader,

My experience confirms your assumption about Invention being the trigger, but perhaps it triggers just the possibility of the hut being one with improvements, since I have never seen an advanced tribe with extra stuff before Invention. However, Republic and Democracy are also discovered in about the same time frame, and it could be that one of these might be the trigger, instead. All we know for sure is that Invention stops any more tech coming from huts and that it kicks off a change in eras. Maybe others who have paid closer attention can shed some light here.

Even when the map is well-revealed, I've noticed that brand new barbarians only appear nearby civilizations, the player's or the AI's, because on large maps, where I've explored and revealed every corner, I don't remember ever seeing them spawn in remote uninhabited areas. So your inferences from their unannounced appearances seem quite accurate to me.

I've got to agree 100% about exploration as the top early priority. I can't wait to get that first trireme built and launched, as they are so valuable in this regard. For now on, I will also start building explorers again to accompany my diplomats to exploit your method of exploring with this duo. A very useful tip, since a dead diplomat halfway across the map makes for a very long, sad, row back home.

[rah]

I recall getting walls once. But I'm an old man whose memory could be suspect.

RAH
But other than that, my experience is the same as reported in terms of improvements.
[This message has been edited by rah (edited May 11, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

{goody huts}{advances}{barb}
{}{SlowThinker}

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This is a post with keywords. See The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.

[EOL]

quote: Originally posted by War4ever on 05-11-2001 12:07 AM I wonder if their is only a few improvements you can receive.... ie never seen a bank..... nor a university.... makes me believe that only "first round improvements" can be given for free.... I have seen an aquaduct.... library, grainery, market, barracks, and harbours never coastal forts though

Same experience for me. I've often wanted some city walls up since the barbs invariably turn up at my remote outpost in large numbers a couple of turns later .

EOL

Rich i don't think you get any improvements in MP with huts though..... at least in all my experiences i haven't had it happen yet dating as far back as i can remmeber.

Timbo

[Jarouik]

I do not remember noticing any pattern in the appearance of advanced tribes that would point to nearby AIs or anything... although it seems to me that rather than being completely random, in some games I get advanced tribes and/or free settlers from huts all the time, whereas in others I will have to wait a long time in the beginning before I get a single one.

Of course, it might just be that once I happen to get a few advanced tribes and free units early on, I can start expanding and exploring even more rapidly, which leads to yet more advanced tribes and free units or settlers. In this way, early advanced tribes can really make all the difference on Deity level. In my most recent game I started on a huge continent alone with the Chinese, which I destroyed very early on, and happened to get an advanced tribe with one of my starting settlers, and lots of advanced tribes and free settlers all around the continent soon after that as well - much more than I remember ever having before! This led to my first game ever in which I became downright invincible very early on on Deity, without conquering anyone but the neighboring Chinese with only two cities. I even managed to build the Pyramids and Hanging Gardens before the computer built any wonders, since my capital city location was so good. Moreover, I kept getting advanced tribes instead of Barbarians even though I had selected raging hordes as Barbarian activity level. Has anyone else noticed a pattern in advanced tribes, namely that there are a disproportionate amount of games where you seem to be getting lots of them, or was I just incredibly lucky?

[East Street Trader]

My experience matches yours to some extent, Jarouk. In a game where an advanced tribe comes along quite early and on your own continent that tribe is often the harbinger of more to follow. In other games there are no advanced tribes outcomes until you have got well into the game and are tipping on foreign shores.

If you get one advanced triobe and tip another hut in the same turn you are very likely to get a second. (Indeed that is true of all outcomes except barbs and wandering tribes).

I suggested at the start of this thread that a player's discovery of Invention is the trigger for developed advanced tribes appearing. In the game I was playing over this week end I got a developed advanced tribe before discovering Invention. However an A1 civ had discovered Invention a turn or two beforehand so I now propose that it is the discovery of Invention by any civ (plus a turn or two) which triggers developed advanced tribes.

Edited to add a post script. Does anyone know whether Invention ending discoveries from huts also operates from the moment the first civ discovers it?
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited May 14, 2001).]

[Blaupanzer]

EST, yes, it would appear so based on my experience, anecdotal only since I've known to watch for this. Any civ gets Invention, advances disappear.

The "pattern factor" in huts has been noted before. If you get more than one of some result, then you seem to get a lot of that result -- often several in a row. Be it money, barbs, tribes, advances, or nomads -- the results often come two or three at a time, as much as four or five out of group of ten.

In addition to the improvements already mentioned for advanced tribes, I often get temples with later advanced tribes. In fact, my most common result when we get to that point in the game has been a 3-citizen city with temple, marketplace, and library. I cannot verify that Invention starts this process, however.

The advanced tribe pointing toward another civ seems less likely. If you are like most of us you explore close first, farther away later. Hence, the longer into the game you get, the farther away are the huts being tipped. By game mechanics, these explorers are getting closer to other civs. Thus, the advanced tribes are closer to other civs by exploration planning, not as any program-designed secret plan to reveal "the Way."

quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer on 05-14-2001 01:41 PM EST, yes, it would appear so based on my experience, anecdotal only since I've known to watch for this. Any civ gets Invention, advances disappear. "

in mp games this isn't true....... any civ which hasn't discovered invention can still get techs from huts unitl their civ discovers or steals it from another ........ this happened to me the other day.....

Someone built Leos..... 8 turns later i got medicine from a hut

[Jarouik]

quote: If you get one advanced triobe and tip another hut in the same turn you are very likely to get a second. (Indeed that is true of all outcomes except barbs and wandering tribes).

quote: The "pattern factor" in huts has been noted before. If you get more than one of some result, then you seem to get a lot of that result -- often several in a row. Be it money, barbs, tribes, advances, or nomads -- the results often come two or three at a time, as much as four or five out of group of ten.

Indeed, now that you mention it, this probably is true of most of the outcomes. I remember some games where I repeatedly got money or free technologies early on from the huts... the continuing appearance of advanced tribes just leads to the most memorable games, so I must have paid more attention to them than the ones where the huts e.g. just gave me lots of money

[East Street Trader]

Well, a long sequence of similar results after tipping is not my own experience (save for one special case).

My approach to exploration and tipping can sometimes lead to a turn in which I tip half a dozen huts or more. What seems to me to happen is that I get a sequence of results which run in pairs. A wandering tribe is always a one off (except for once when I loaded the settler onto a boat and the next hut - on the same continent - yielded another wandering tribe). Barbs very often are a one off. The other results come in pairs.

I have speculated that whenever any civ tips, the game is programmed to give results in a set sequence but with a dice roll each time which can result in the sequence being displaced in favour of a barb outcome.

I would readily accept that there must be some further randomising because I can recall a number of occasions when the outcomes did not follow a sequence. I, too, have fond memories of an occasion when it seems to have got stuck on advanced tribes and I got a succession of them. Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that the first hut tipped on a new landmass (whether a large continent or a small island, is weighted to give an advanced tribe result more often.

The exceptional case arises when you delay founding a capital. The time comes, after 10 huts or so, when a long sequence of units starts up. I have known it run unbroken for thirty or more huts.

[solo]

EST, as for pairs of hut results, I can verify this from thousands of huts tipped when looking into which techs were most likely to come from huts under different conditions. Although I was mostly interested about techs, often I would go 20 or 30 tips without a tech, and then a group of 4-6 techs, usually coming as pairs in the next 10 to 20 tips, followed by another stretch with no techs or hardly any, before the next clustered bunch of techs. Ditto for gold results, for military units, for barbarians, and for advanced tribes, each having their own stretches, where they dominated the results. For nomads, I believe only one per continent at one time is permitted, making them an exception, but loading a new one straight onto a boat makes a continent immediately eligible again.

The way results are bunched (even after a reload after every tip, which is the way I was testing the same hut over and over), has me thinking that the results may be dependent somehow on the actual TIME when the hut is tipped. A hypothetical explanation: The game first obtains the time of day from the computer's clock when a hut is tipped. Each hour may be split into 6 groups, with perhaps advanced tribes being chosen for domination when it is between 20 and 30 past the hour. Each minute may be split into groups too, giving advanced tribes the biggest chunk of available seconds, say maybe 75% of them. Then the actual second at which the hut was tipped is used to randomly select the hut result. A randomizing system similar to this may be in use and would explain how results often come in bunches, yet remain fairly unpredictable.

Tech results from huts mostly depend on what techs are eligible at the moment, and a sufficient number of tests in a particular situation can predict the probability of one over another. While researching this, I also discovered that terrain on which a hut is found is another minor factor in this equation, influencing probabilities enough to make further testing (all terrains types for all combinations of eligible techs) impractical and too time-consuming. The most likely tech from a hut, if you don't have any yet: as many already know from experience, Horseback Riding or Warrior Code, depending on the terrain. Least likely: Ceremonial Burial.

[Blaupanzer]

Solo, admire your willingness to research. Do you know how likely one is to find post-invention techs, such as EC's Medicine, if you haven't yet developed Invention?

On a second point, I would note that either your research is wrong for 2.42 relating to nomads/wandering tribes, or you are perpetuating a rumor. I am in a game now in which I found 3 wandering settlers and three advanced tribes in my first 7 huts. At two points I found a new NONE Settler while another was still alive on the same vast (almost world-girdling) continent. I thought this theory had been put to rest, so I didn't save the game at those points. This is by far the best I've done at deity in a long time. Is this "no second nomad" theory based on you recent research on 2.42 deity? For this one instance, I am certain of my results, but anecdotes don't substitute for real research.

[solo]

Blaupanzer,

I never progressed much further than the beginning of the tech tree, and given the enormity of the task, would rank the amount of testing necessary to be equivalent in tedium to one of the high point score games. So sorry, no tests after Invention.

You set me straight about nomads, as I was perpetuating an errant theory, and thanks for the correction. Because I was reloading before every tip of a hut, I never got 2 nomads at the same time because I was always starting with none around, so my results neither confirm nor deny multiple nomads per continent.
[This message has been edited by solo (edited May 15, 2001).]

my belief on nomads is that you get as many as possible from the poles...

in my mp game tonite i got four nomads.... no more than one per turn.... as soon as i build a city..... next turn.... nomad.... only one advanced tribe and not till late but whose complaining.....

my belief is that don't tip a hut on the same turn you build a city with a nomad....wait until next turn.... i did this tonite and got a crazy amount of nomads.... why i was kicking someones rear

Nomads on huge landmasses.... i have had more than one..... i think on large maps it increases...... seems to me i have had three or four in large maps later in the game.

small maps..... one nomad per continent.....

[Marquis de Sodaq]

quote: Originally posted by EthnicCleanser on 05-16-2001 12:09 AM Nomads on huge landmasses.... i have had more than one..... i think on large maps it increases...... seems to me i have had three or four in large maps later in the game. small maps..... one nomad per continent.....

I suspect the nomads are limited to one per some area. On small worlds, a continent would fit within the threshold, on large worlds not. I, too, have found several nomads on the same landmass, this is not uncommon. Maybe the game randomly chooses nomad, and only changes it to something else if there is already a NON-settler within a ten (or whatever number) square radius. I've never paid close attention to how far apart my multiple nomads pop up, so this is just speculation...

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[Marquis de Sodaq]

EST, that sounds worth a try! I've always kept the second start-up NON-settler for improvements (free work, no support). That one unit ends up having irrigated, mined, and built roads on scores of squares - all for nothing. But clearly a second city in 3850bc and a NON-settler would be even better. I'll try my luck next time the chance comes...

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[EOL]

In a game last month I received nomads from successive huts (adjacent in the pattern) on a continent only big enough for 5 (perhaps 6 at a stretch) perfectionist cities on a large map game. This is the only time I can remember getting 2 nomads on such a small land mass. Perhaps its just rare with the chance of nomads decreasing rapidly with each nomad operating on the continent already.

EOL

EST......

My thoughts on large landmasses and nomads are as follows.......depending on the amount of civs on the current landmass and depending on the amount of NON settlers on the same landmass determines how many can be on the continent at one time.

Plain english as i don't know if i even understand that gibberish..... zulus, romans and french one one continent means up to three NON settlers can be on the board at any one time.....

However it could also be based on the amount of tiles on the landmass.....

for example i never have received two nomads on a 50 tile island.... but have repeatedly received two or three advanced tribes....

Another factor in this could be NON nomads = amount of civs in the game..... ie 7 civs = up to seven nomads.... remember this is nomads for all tribes..... does the ai receive nomads or just advanced tribes.

The one thing i noticed in my last couple of SP games and also my MP game last night was that nomads came after i built a new city. i didn't open a hut until one turn after i built the city with my nomad...... i found even if i built a city that turn with the nomad all huts produced gold, units, advances, or barbs. When i waited a full turn after i built the city nomads were far more frequent.

Its my belief that nomads must be laid down as a city for a full turn in order to receive another one..... either that or its just another quirky thing i am noticing the last three games

[East Street Trader]

Plainly, then, multiple nomads are possible on large landmasses. But I hesitate to ditch the one per (small or medium sized) landmass theory because of that. Indeed, if there is a bit of programming governing this I think I would expect the programmer to write something in for that special case.

A link to area rather than landmass is an attractive idea. But I can neither support that nor contradict it from my own gaming experience.

Your experience, EthnicCleanser, is consistent with the one nomad per area/small or medium landmass proposition and I'm rather with you that using a nomad to found a city with seems to increase the chance of getting one shortly afterwards when tipping a hut on forest/hills or mountains (you get advanced tribes from huts on flatland, never nomads).

I used always to keep the second NONE settler in deity to build roads etc. Then I decided to try what was then the accepted wisdom here and found two cities early. I had never, before then, got a nomad on my home continent whereas after I changed style they became common.

What I often do now is to see how many huts exist nearish to the site where I have, or intend to, found my capital. If it turns out that there are one or two huts on forest/hill/mountain squares I found with both initial settlers, expecting one of those huts to yield a nomad. So far I have been getting one by these methods at what seems quite a marked increased frequency over the normal incidence.

[East Street Trader]

EOL

Did you still have the NONE settler at the time you tipped the second hut or had you used it by then to found a city (or moved it into a boat, perhaps)?

If he was still extant and on the continent that is strike one against the theory.

You get enough one off events in Civ2 to put me off junking the theory on the basis of one strike but if any more are reported then it'll have to join the ranks of all the other myths and legends we've invented from time to time!

The one nomad/NONE settler per civ on the continent is another attractive notion but I have no experience to back it up with.

Marquis

It was this point that led me to try the found two cities approach. Ribs is another commited retainer of a NONE settler and her challenge to the received wisdom is a powerful one - probably powerful enough to keep me to my old ways. But losing the chance of a nomad tips the balance for me.

So, if my early exploration makes me suspect I'm on a small landmass or there are few huts around I'll keep the NONE settler. But if it looks like there is plenty of land and a decent amount of it is going to be forest then I get a second city down.

And, of course, just because you keep the NONE settler initially you can always change your mind if huts on forest/hills/mountains start appearing. Simply save those huts up for tipping at the apropriate moment.

There is no guarantee that you will get a nomad and sometimes, even if you do, he appears inconveniently far from where your cities are located.

But the method has been working for me.

[EOL]

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 05-17-2001 11:51 AM EOL Did you still have the NONE settler at the time you tipped the second hut or had you used it by then to found a city (or moved it into a boat, perhaps)? If he was still extant and on the continent that is strike one against the theory.

The first one was still on the same continent (84 squares in size - just counted, so reasonably small).

EOL

[rah]

Can we all say "urban myth", that's all that one non per cont. is.
Search the boards, you will find over 100 posts that claim exceptions.

RAH
I've personally had it happen many many times, on a variety of continent sizes and number of cities.

[solo]

While a nomad from a hut with another on the same continent is new to me, too, results reported above confirms that this happens. I guess I've always whisked them away to use them at home or used them to start a new city before getting a chance to find out.

Has anyone ever got a nomad from a hut without founding a city with the second non-settler provided at the start of the game? I have never received a nomad from a hut, until using and/or losing my second starting settler.

My opinion is that the first two settlers are best used in founding cities as early as possible. It's great to have one or more NON-settlers, but they are not essential.