Why Poland SHOULD be included in one of the official sets - Page 5

Martinus · October 10, 2001, 03:39

Thanks. But I guess if such incidents occured, they were sparce at best. I mean, what sane general would have the cavalry charging tanks?

(after all this people emigrated and fought later in British and Russian armies - they would not bring in idiots I guess).

Of course, I am aware that there were cavalry formations in the Polish army at the beginning of WWII. They were quite well trained and used against infantry. But tanks?

Martinus · October 10, 2001, 03:58

Ok, I did some research on that issue. There were indeed two incidents of actual fighting between the cavalry unit and armed vehicles, but they were less picturesque than the said propaganda movie:

1. the Battle of Mokra - the casual view of the battle reports may give rise to this fallacious rumoursas indeed on the Polish side it was the cavalry unit, and tanks on the German side.

The problem for the Germans though was that the Poles were dismounted and dug in, and firing at German tanks from mortars and machine guns. When the German forces retreated after suffering casualties, the Polish cavalry mounted again. So no charging here

2. a small incident in which the Polish cavalry charged a column of German infantry. They were succesful until two armed vehicles, supporting the infantry, arrived from nearby forest. Few cavalrists died, most of them retreated.

So that's it. This coupled with the images from the propaganda film could have raised the fallacious conclusion.

Staszek · October 10, 2001, 04:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Zealot

Didn't get it...

Did't get saudades or why we do not share it?

Mankind · October 10, 2001, 07:12

Quote:

sorry, i read that in a dutch history of the ww2. one of the best books (3 volumes) ever written on the topic.
poland is a great nation, but i do not feel that it is 'The Civ' like e.g. Spain or Arabs.

So Americans are not civ becose Poland has more 'rich' history
and Poles where longer on the map than America

Quote:

I really do not want to hurt anyone's feelings. The fact that you survived between Germans and Russians speaks for itself

I understand

LaRusso · October 10, 2001, 07:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Mankind
[quot]sorry, i read that in a dutch history of the ww2. one of the best books (3 volumes) ever written on the topic.
poland is a great nation, but i do not feel that it is 'The Civ' like e.g. Spain or Arabs.

So Americans are not civ becose Poland has more 'rich' history
and Poles where longer on the map than America

[/QUOTE]

This is not a thread about viability of including American civ in the game. To say that Polish civ is one of the most important 16 nations/civs/cultures in the history of the world is a tad too patriotic.

Mankind · October 10, 2001, 08:04

Quote:

This is not a thread about viability of including American civ in the game. To say that Polish civ is one of the most important 16 nations/civs/cultures in the history of the world is a tad too patriotic.

Youu know what? You're right!

So why you mentioned arabs & spain ?

Mankind · October 10, 2001, 08:11

$%@#$%@#

sorry double post

LoD · October 10, 2001, 08:16

LaRusso:

Quote:

To say that Polish civ is one of the most important 16 nations/civs/cultures in the history of the world is a tad too patriotic.

Could you please read the topic of this thread

?

Martinus · October 10, 2001, 11:06

Although nobody seems to follow this topic, I don't give up (I guess most people are just intimidated by my witty ripostes

). Here's a bunch of links about Polish cavalry in WWII and how it did NOT charge at tanks:

http://mops.uci.agh.edu.pl/~rzepinsk/1939/html/cav.htm

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquar...2187/polish.htm

http://www.quoteland.com/baronies/war/polish.html

Enjoy!

Luk · October 13, 2001, 05:50

Hey All!

I think I was first Pole registered in Apolyton. I did it 2 years ago I think, and then I remember when I disscussed alone with other Apolytoners about Poland Greatness... For about half a year I stopped to post anything in Apolyton, but now Im back because I love Civilisation and Im waiting for Civ3

And I think Poland is definitly the major civ in the World. Russians for example are important only from 3 centuries, in XIV, XV century Moscow was not important country which was raided from time to time by our Lithuanian Slaves

Well, if Kazimierz Wielki had son, Poland would never allied with Lithuania, and then... We would destroy Teutonic Knights after Grunwald without problems, conquered pathetic Lithuanians, and colonized East, with Sibieria maybe. And in XX century Germans would immigrate to Poland and work in our MacDonalds as Cleaners. Great perspective!!!!

Martinus · October 13, 2001, 06:10

Luk, I got this strange feeling that you will probably get flamed very soon. I don't really know why

pithorr · October 13, 2001, 06:23

Too much espresso today morning I suppose...

I'm already hearing this rush about Polish maniacs!

Luk · October 13, 2001, 07:06

I don't care it...

Martinus · October 13, 2001, 07:10

I was joking. Anyway, welcome (back) to Apolyton

ogotai · October 13, 2001, 11:04

If someone like to see husaria in action:

http://www.jest.art.pl/malar.html - this is Polish site, so it can be for many of you "dead link" because of low latency

http://www.jest.art.pl/ - if someone likes more about husaria (but there is the same restriction as abowe, and its only in polish...)

Mankind · October 14, 2001, 06:05

Maybe it's not about "why poland SHOULD(...)" [yes it SHOULD(...)

]

Wow I already feel here like in home in Poland

Footie Mad · October 14, 2001, 07:24

Pithorr, that drinking smiley is just to cool

Leppersson · October 14, 2001, 14:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Mankind
Maybe it's not about "why poland SHOULD(...)" [yes it SHOULD(...)

]

Wow I already feel here like in home in Poland

Yes guys, have you realise we stayed alone here...

MagyarCrusader · October 16, 2001, 01:43

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression that the Hussar originated from Hungary in the 15th century, and the Winged Hussar was the Polish varient used 2 centuries later.

What was the difference between the two, besides the obvious "wings".

Mankind · October 16, 2001, 03:50

Quote:

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression that the Hussar originated from Hungary in the 15th century, and the Winged Hussar was the Polish varient used 2 centuries later.

What was the difference between the two, besides the obvious "wings".

In a way you have rights ...

but

Hussars as armed formation was used for first once by Poland.

O and 'wings' ; Polish former hussars more effective from Hungarian

But what this has common with this thread ?

LoD · October 16, 2001, 09:42

MagyarCrusader: Possibly the only similarity could be the English name

. BTW, the hussar formation appeared in Poland around 1500, and was originally a type of light cavalry (had become later "upgraded" to heavy).
Anyway, the topic of hussars (or winged husars, whatever you call them) has been raised a propos the Polish UU debate. And you really can't argue with the following - the husar is the most known "unique" Polish formation.

LoD

MagyarCrusader · October 16, 2001, 14:34

Quote:

And you really can't argue with the following - the husar is the most known "unique" Polish formation.

Most encyclopedia's mention the Hussars formation originating from Hungary, so I don't know if Poland can call that unique. Even in Age of Kings Conqueror edition, they cite Hungary as the origin of Hussars. Funny thing though is the Hussars in the games have the wings, and I never read about Hungarian Hussars having them.

Leppersson · October 16, 2001, 18:21

Quote:

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Most encyclopedia's mention the Hussars formation originating from Hungary, so I don't know if Poland can call that unique. Even in Age of Kings Conqueror edition, they cite Hungary as the origin of Hussars. Funny thing though is the Hussars in the games have the wings, and I never read about Hungarian Hussars having them.

Uuuuhhh!!! What a stubborn guy...
The difference is not in a name (let it origin from Hungarian, maybe Turks...), but tactics and weapons used. Polish Husaria was a breaking weapon, like Panzers during WWII and was charging in close order, rather unique for a cavlry of that period. They were also using short rifles and pistols.
BTW: They rather didn't use those wings in fight, it was a kind of parade uniform...

MagyarCrusader · October 16, 2001, 22:40

I'm not being stubborn, I am asking questions. I didn't know there were differences and thats why I am posting. I didn't know Husaria used pistols. Hussars used sabres.

LoD · October 17, 2001, 09:36

MagyarCrusader: Well, encyclopedias can be an uncertain knowldegde soruce - mine for example doesn't say a thing about Hungarian hussars

. Anyway, a typical Polish hussar was armed with a spear, a type of sabre and 2 pistols (as Leppersson points out). As mentioned earlier in this thread, the wings actually had two practical uses - one was a psychological effect (imagine the sound a thousand of those had produced when a unit of hussars was chargin - actually the Mongols thought at first that hussars were demons

), and as a means of defence against lariats.
Like I've said - the only similirity is probably the name. As I've mentioned before, the Polish hussars were originally light cavalry, but then evolved and completely changed their profile.
A sidenote on the AoK issue - as I've stated in this thread (a propos some posters questoning the breaking of the Enigma code by the Polish scientitsts ), I would be careful before citing Microsoft as a knowledge source

.

LoD

pithorr · October 17, 2001, 15:15

Leppersson

is right, LoD.
Polish hussars were not using those wings. It's just a 19th century myth. It was a part of parade uniform.

VetLegion · October 17, 2001, 16:43

there were also hussars in croatia, so

Quote:

If it wasn't for Poland in 1683, you'd probably be a sex slave of some Ottoman basha.

sure, you did all the work, while we had a picnick here. you can see the results of our picnick on the shape of croatia on any map.

LaRusso · October 18, 2001, 05:12

vetlegion, balkan nationalism is nothing in comparison to what you will hear from our polish friends. at least we do not believe all we hear in the school...sometimes

Martinus · October 18, 2001, 08:51

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso
vetlegion, balkan nationalism is nothing in comparison to what you will hear from our polish friends. at least we do not believe all we hear in the school...sometimes

Well, you DID believe the Goebbels/Mussolini propaganda about Polish cavalry charging tanks in WWII

Martinus · October 18, 2001, 08:56

Quote:

Originally posted by VetLegion
there were also hussars in croatia, so

Well, the fact that hussars or similar formations could have been used in few countries does not discount hussars as a potential CSU for Poland, simply because Polish hussars were probably used most effectively. The same goes for the Egyptian war chariot and Babilonian bowmen CSU - other nations had such units as well, only these mentioned used them most remarkably.

Quote:

sure, you did all the work, while we had a picnick here. you can see the results of our picnick on the shape of croatia on any map.

You're right. The comment about "sex slaves" is like the all-too-known "We saved your asses in WWII".

However it has to be said that the Polish army was instrumental in the victory of Vienna in 1683. It is worth mentioning because quite recently I was speaking with a Swedish friend who fancies himself as 17th century military expert and he had no idea about the Polish particupation, not too mention instrumental one, during the battle of Vienna