Cripple the Strong or Crush the Weak?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

An SP/Diety/World Conquest question:

It seems to me that there generally comes a time in a world conquest game when you're done with taking a city here and a city there; you're ready to unleash the war machine and make the world you own. By that time, you probably have a couple of opponents in decent shape (generally democracies on distant land masses, I find) and many more opponents limping along on life support, existing only by your good graces. So, as the troop ships fill with howies, or cavalry (my preference), or knights (I'll never be that good) or whatever, the question is, what do you do first? Mop up the straggling civs, or strike at the heart of your most formidable foe? Just wondering.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Gatekeeper]

Rufus:

I generally take out the strongest AI first. My invasion force strength depends on the size of the empire in question — usually six to 18 transports loaded to the gills and escorted by AEGIS cruisers, battleships and missile-laden subs. Once in a blue moon I'll bring a loaded carrier or two along for the ride as well.

Since I usually play on a large Earth map, it's not uncommon for me to have gigantic enemy empires on continents opposite of where I'm at. When I play in the Americas, I generally wipe out my neighbors early on and, towards the end of the game, find myself going up against a mammoth AI empire that sprawls across all of Eurasia and most of Africa (with colonies in Australia and the southern tip of South America). It's usually the Russians, Japanese, Mongols, Amazons, Zulus or Vikings. So I take them out first (along with the occasional b*tch civ that's s*ck*ng the biggest AI's private part in order to survive. ).

CYBERAmazon

[TCO]

Who's ever closest.

[Scouse Gits]

Don't let the AI ever get out of the Stone Age! from the outset ensure that even the most distant AI is kept on a war footing to protect itself against your (largely non-existent) aggression - when it comes time to take them out (vet Crucs + Ironclads for me) unleash the war machine and watch them fold ...

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Scouse Gits]

Much depends on the size of map, but as you mention "democracies on distant landmasses" I assume you are at least on a Medium Map.

Use the biggest weapon in the game - Trade.

Build a strong navy for trading and for military puposes. An early MPE is essential for maps and intelligence.

Split your resources into caravans and offensive units. Trade with the perfectionist civs in demo/republic whilst conquering the others. Then with your vast empire and scientific lead the others will soon crumble.

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SG(2)

[kcbob]

Good question with folks on both sides. For example, I take the opposite approach from CYBERAmazon. I take out the weakest first. When they're done, I have that much more to throw at the next weakest. Sort of like paying off credit cards. Start with the smallest and work your way up to the maxed out cards.

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Frodo lives!

[DaveV]

My choice is based on which AI has something I need. If I've missed out on some of my favorite wonders, or one of the AIs has some good techs, this is my chance to go out and acquire them (e.g. taking STWA early in your conquest binge will greatly aid your later conquering). If the AIs are all worthless and weak, I'll generally start with the closest.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

DaveV is right on - take out Sun Tzu and any happy wonder you may have missed, then charge! If the conquest will take many turns, it's good to take out the 2nd or 3rd strongest. The wimps will still be wimps 20 turns from now, and you may discover tech for superior units with which to assault the main foe. That said, I'm far from expert at deity world conquest...

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[Blaupanzer]

In general, I'm with GP -- take out the closest first. Going after capitols is almost always useful, makes the cities/units cheaper and undermines production/money output. Plus, usually nets a few wonders. If science still matters (i.e., conquest of all but one land-locked city, then AC), then taking the closest first gives the advantage of preventing the loss of techs to theft and counterattacks.

"Counterattacks," you say, "the AI is not that smart." Well in my current game, the AI hit one of my cities with 22 attacks (ships and ground units all -- only I have flight and advanced flight). Crushing four defenders and two response units. All this from the sea from 20 or more squares away right through a corridor of my shipping without being seen. Most impressive, especially the two subs taking out the BB in the area and 7 destroyers (count 'em) taking down my cruiser. All this on a surprise attack by a formerly peaceful (and distant) civ. This was in response to my attacking a city their "ally" had built on my continent four turns before. They'll pay, but that fleet looked very MPish in structure. A whole transport was filled with infantry who sailed in to end the turn. I've not seen the AI do that before either, although it is a common tactic for me.

[drake]

Absorb neighbors.........Don't seperate the empire if at all possible. So I guess who I go after first is not determined by strength, but by proximity.......I'd get to them all at some point.

[Like2frolick]

Kill the weak, first.

If you kill off a weak civilization..preferably one which gives you an advantage over another, stronger civ.

Ex: I have 6 civs left. Bloodlust. The Russians are the toughest, with 16 cities. The greets are to the east and south of Russia, they have four cities and negligible tech.

Take the greeks.

First...you add four cities.
Just as importantly, you add the ability to springboard. You have a much shorter communications and reinforcement line, an entrenched stronghold.

If you have to spend 10 turns travelling to get there then a major war becomes a serious problem.

A Historical Example:
The revolutionary war. In the revolutionary war, the Colonies were VASTLY outgunned. The British had a bigger army, a Navy, Money, Support...

But they lost, because it took four months to send soldiers from England to the US, and it took days for the US to develop regiments.

(Well....that and the revolution kicked off a Major war, and England was busy fighting everyone else...)

So....Kill the weakest civs first. Combine there power with yours.

Preferably, you now have a good base, from which to spring another massive offensive on your enemies.

[Everyman]

quote: What do you do first? Mop up the straggling civs, or strike at the heart of your most formidable foe?

The latter. Keep the straggling civs around for tribute and trade and eliminate them at your convenience.

As for the formidable foe, if he's on a fairly distant continent, I would immediately plan on means to establish a beachhead city that would be a transport distance (7 moves with Magellan) away from a supply of troops. I prefer to take the selected city whole through bribery, ensuring a quick start on establishing a toehold on the opponent's continent. Once you have the beachhead city, just pour in the spies and vet troops and take the cities one by one.

[airdrik]

I generally wait till late in the game to start conquest, then it is whoever hates me and is close enough for me to just smash them, then to whoever else hates me until only my allies are left, then I cancel alliances (if the haven't already been canceled) and attack.

[VetLegion]

agree with DaveV, if someone has something particullary nice get I him first.
But usually I go at the most advanced guy to stop him discovering pikemen or musketeers, depending on the size of the map.

[War4ever]

Again DaveV gives sound advice..... as with others , proximity certainly plays a role in whom my next target is ......as does any wonder or chunk of land i need

I tend to do things the hard way though and to be perfectly frank.... nothing gives this Mongol warmonger more pleasure than crushing a pathetically weak Babylonian state. Those large growth and science cities do more for me than a bunch of backward (for now) russian cities.

I like to play with fire.... i am going to win anyways so who really cares if i make it more difficult for myself.

Trade with the BABS or EGYPTS..... let them grow huge with Republic..... they defend like crap and just when they get big for their britches.... slamm some calvarly down their throats....

I will admit though.... if i find the zulus or carts...... and they are getting huge (through the french in here too) i will launch as early as possible on them....


Oh and i don't usually have any peace treaties ever..... if i can help it when i conquer the world...... i war with everyone usually from first contact I use MGE and lets be honest..... on a large map just build Marcos for the embassies and the maps.... the rest is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle

I go with closest also.
After that, one should take out the biggest threat.

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It's In The Way That You Use It
Tuatha De Danann Tribe

[VetLegion]

lol, now that you mentioned it War4Ever, there is something in taking a fat babylonian city and listening their women cry (on a side note you get a fat rebell city you starve to death, but hey!)

quote: Oh and i don't usually have any peace treaties ever..... if i can help it when i conquer the world...... i war with everyone usually from first contact I use MGE and lets be honest..... on a large map just build Marcos for the embassies and the maps.... the rest is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle

I rely on cese fires / peace treaties heavily. I d sign alliances if they wanted. I sign everything with anyone, after I try for some money extraction. I d sign with a barb King

I also like marco pollo for embassies, but MAPS? I have a probability of getting that like 1% in MGE! No matter what I give to AI they end up mad as hell. That is a bug really, people already complained.

[War4ever]

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion on 05-08-2001 09:30 PM lol, now that you mentioned it War4Ever, there is something in taking a fat babylonian city and listening their women cry (on a side note you get a fat rebell city you starve to death, but hey!) I also like marco pollo for embassies, but MAPS? I have a probability of getting that like 1% in MGE! No matter what I give to AI they end up mad as hell. That is a bug really, people already complained.

first contact....... once i have map making.... i gift everything early to get the map....... then i plot REVENGE for the ai for being so GREEDY of my hard earned resrearch

Maps are really quite easy early in the game

[EOL]

Whoever's closest starting with cities containing useful wonders or the capital. By the time you get to a civ further away you could already have used the units to roll-over a closer opponent and have the extra wonders/cities.

EOL

[East Street Trader]

In the strategy I'm trying at the moment (early Republic with foreign trade) I work towards a period of conquest based on a fleet of ironclads. So I look for a civ with a decent few coastal cities and, ideally, one without gunpowder.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Wow, that generated some lively debate. My own style leans toward "crush the strong," since the weak civs are generally harmless (the Aztecs in my current game are busy sending charioteers to attack my vet riflemen standing behind city walls; I think their overall strategy is being coordinated by Sisyphus). But I like democracy, and like the civ-building aspect of civ, so I tend to attack fairly late (I prefer having espionage, steel, and tactics for the units and having built Hoover for production before I really crank up the war machine). By the time I cry havoc and loose the dogs of war, I've already used dips to purchase cities with key wonders, cities which then double as kick-off points for world conquest. My first strike is thus at the guy whose likely to be the biggest annoyance if he's left alone, and I generally take out the capital first unless there's a better target (like a wonder city I can't buy because the *&^%% Germans won't switch out of democracy!).

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Edward]

quote: Originally posted by War4ever on 05-08-2001 07:29 PM nothing gives this Mongol warmonger more pleasure than crushing a pathetically weak Babylonian state.

Reminds me a most improbable backwards message I got very early in a recent game. I swear it's true:

"Mongol civilization destroyed by Babylonians"

Can you believe it?! Previously I'd never heard of the AI Babylonians destroying anyone (and don't expect to again).

[towigg]

quote: Originally posted by Edward on 05-10-2001 10:14 AM Reminds me a most improbable backwards message I got very early in a recent game. I swear it's true: "Mongol civilization destroyed by Babylonians" Can you believe it?! Previously I'd never heard of the AI Babylonians destroying anyone (and don't expect to again).

I am currently playing in an Emperor level game, where I now control 2/3 of the world (medium map, early modern era, cruisers and alpine troops, building Hoover), and the Babylonians are still alive, and not yet on my list of powers to conquer, since they are playing nice, like the Aztecs, unlike the Persians and Celts (currently being conquered).

However, the Mongols were destroyed very early by the Vikings when they had only one city (which is now part of my empire).

Anyway, first conquests are on the same continent that I am on (like the Vikings described above), then the nearest civilization that doesn't play nice (like the Persians described above). The nice civilizations are conquered last (like the Babylonians described above).

[War4ever]

quote: Originally posted by Edward on 05-10-2001 10:14 AM Reminds me a most improbable backwards message I got very early in a recent game. I swear it's true: "Mongol civilization destroyed by Babylonians" Can you believe it?! Previously I'd never heard of the AI Babylonians destroying anyone (and don't expect to again).

Edward this happens to All civs from time to time...... if the ai meets each other early they most often will go to war..... even if its Babylon vs Egypt

On large worlds this can be annoying especially if you don't build Marco Polo because the ai civ now has TWO "Capital" city locations...... i know only one palace but you catch my drift.... this allows the ai to grow with speed i find

[geofelt]

I do not mop up any civ early in the game. I leave one city, preferably with no palace around. If you mop it up, it will restart in a distant part of the map where it might be hard to find, and will have time to grow.
I do not know when restarting terminates, but it probably is in the 1800's.
If possible, I want sun-tzu and magellans for conquest, so I will try to get them early if I can. I go after the non-democracies first with bribery. Among the democracies, I go after the strongest first. It makes most sense to me, to take on the nearest civs first. This allows you to reinforce and consolidate your gains, while establishing a springboard to the next victim.

[Maelhavok]

Eat the crippled, feed them to the strong, eat the strong.

[Edward]

quote: Originally posted by War4ever on 05-10-2001 08:40 PM Edward this happens to All civs from time to time...... if the ai meets each other early they most often will go to war..... even if its Babylon vs Egypt

I've seen the Babylonians at war many times, but I'd never seen them totally conquer someone. Guess I need to play more!

quote: Originally posted by War4ever on 05-10-2001 08:40 PM On large worlds this can be annoying...this allows the ai to grow with speed i find

Yes, an early AI conquer gives the victor not only more cities, but also more available land to grow into.

[Dry]

Weak? Strong?
There is no general rules for me, I usually go for the biggest pain in the @$$, the guy which played with my b@| |$ since 1000 years. Usually the neighbouring Hight Priest that stole all my precious techs.

[colossus]

It is advisable to take the nearest first.
But when distance tied, take the weaker first.

The reasons are threefold:
1)It is quicker to finish them.
2)Shorter campaign duration means the civ is less likely to steal something useful from you and trade/gift it to other civ. Its lamentable you lose the gunpowder/rifleman/armor advantage in the middle of campaign. Truly you are bound to lose it sooner or later, but later is much better than sooner.
3)As you probably has some significant tech advantages over other civ, you want to slow down their discovery rates. Killing off small civs first mean effectively that big civs are researching slower.

quote: Originally posted by colossus on 05-14-2001 11:31 PM It is advisable to take the nearest first. But when distance tied, take the weaker first. The reasons are threefold: 1)It is quicker to finish them. 2)Shorter campaign duration means the civ is less likely to steal something useful from you and trade/gift it to other civ. Its lamentable you lose the gunpowder/rifleman/armor advantage in the middle of campaign. Truly you are bound to lose it sooner or later, but later is much better than sooner. 3)As you probably has some significant tech advantages over other civ, you want to slow down their discovery rates. Killing off small civs first mean effectively that big civs are researching slower.

i disagree......

first , trading with the weaker civ will help your economy just as much as the larger one... especially if it is a peacefull country like the babs or egyptians.....

Better to take out the powerfull zulu's or mongols when they are just getting muskets ..... rather than letting them get rifles /artillery/ calvalry.... you don't want ai hordes of those slowing you down.

Killing the big civs before they can defend is smarter than letting them live while you punish the tiny ones..... not too mention zulus and mongols are notorious for expanding...... whereas the babs don't build so even if you get to them late..... there isn't much to kill