Wishlist: which Wonders should be included? - Page 2

Fresno · September 21, 2001, 12:49

Quote:

Originally posted by SerapisIV
Sci-fi should be kept out of Civ games, just look at the CtP series.

Don't worry; Civ is mainly a history-based game, and I don't think they will ever change that (At least I hope so!

)

On the other hand, I don't think it would be a bad thing to include some (not too many) future Wonders. Remember Cure for Cancer?

Boris Godunov · September 21, 2001, 12:59

Gotta ask this...

HOW do we put the little Icons under our names, and how do I get upgraded from a settler on this board?

Cheers.

Fresno · September 21, 2001, 13:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Gotta ask this...

HOW do we put the little Icons under our names, and how do I get upgraded from a settler on this board?

Cheers.

Surprise surprise.. You're a chieftain now

Gramphos · September 21, 2001, 13:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Gotta ask this...

HOW do we put the little Icons under our names, and how do I get upgraded from a settler on this board?

Cheers.

This sort of questions is for the Community.
You can select an avatar in the Control Panel - Edit Options Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click Change Avatar (ore use this link).
You will become a Chieftain after 30 posts. it is in the FAQ

Boris Godunov · September 21, 2001, 14:02

...I got to kinda disagree. While I have no argument for the horrible scifi elements in CTP2, I think the Civ3 team should do a little bit of "guessing" about some future wonders/techs/units. After all, history never stops, and it would be rather unrealistic to end the game with just what we have now. I think it would be easy to make some fairly educated guesses about the future (nanotechnology, fusion, etc.). They should not go all-out over it and turn it into Star Trek, but I would like to see some interesting and reasonable future items.

Cheers.

Fresno · September 22, 2001, 05:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
After all, history never stops, and it would be rather unrealistic to end the game with just what we have now.
Cheers.

It would be even more unrealistic to stop in 2300 AD. Unless you have supernatural powers so you can tell us what the world will look like then.

Oligarf · September 22, 2001, 06:24

What I would like to see are customizable wonders. I mean, you can give a wonder a name, a icon or so, and give it it's special ability. It depends on the ability that is given how long it should take to build.
Wonders become civ-specific, that is more realistic. The ability used should be used by only one civ and should be attached to a specific advance.
Would Russians really build the Statue of Liberty????? They could build something with the same ability but with another name.

So for the Dutch I would propose:
- The Big Barn -Pyramids-
- The VOC (United East-Indian Trading Company) -Adam Smith's Trading Company-
- The Deltaworks -an aquaduct in every city-
- Tasman's Journey -Magellan's Journey-
- Laurens Janszoon Coster Printing Press -a library in every city-
- De Witt's Deal -a marketplace in every city-

Cheerio
Oligarf

Ribannah · September 22, 2001, 06:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Oligarf
- The Big Barn -Pyramids-

How about: The Hunebeds?

Keukenhof = Hanging Gardens
Waterline = Great Wall
Karel ende Elegast = Heroic Epic
The Dom = Sistine Chapel
...

Admiral PJ · September 22, 2001, 06:44

The following is a list of the wonders i've put in to my Civ2 TOT scenario pack (as yet unreleased)
Its less American central, with things like the Houses of Parliament replacing statue liberty (its just a big statue for gods sake

though seriously it should make citizens happy , maybe it could be replaced with something like the shakespeares Theatre) . The parliament stops allowing any new governments(govs are changed in name and tech requirements too) when great democracy is discovered, which normally isn't till about the 1950's or later.

note: i've changed a lot of sciences and they need different links etc so they may look strange here.
Its written in the rules.txt game format, so reads:
Wonder name, Cost x 10, unsupported, Required Tech Advance

Anchor Butter Frozen SeaTrade,50, 0, Rfg,
Tower of Babel, 20, 0, PT,
Great Mosque of Islam(Mecca), 40, 0, Chi, ; was crusades should be with chivalry anyhow
Computer Password Breaker, 50, 0, E2, ; Royal Lighthouses Charter
Academy of Socrates, 40, 0, Phi,
Holy Bible, 50, 0, X3,
Great Wall, 40, 0, X7, ; Jellini's Fusion Shield,60, 0, FP,
The Great Colosseum (Gladiator), 40, 0, Csc,
Great TransOceanic Canal, 50, 0, Exp,
Global Industries Inc.Corp, 40, 0, Cmp,
Royal Inquisition, 60, 0, MT, ;Michelangelo's Chapel
Great Pyramids, 30, 0, Cst, ;asttronomy or Polytheism or Construction
Columbuses New World Colony, 40, 0, Nav,
The Olympic Games, 30, 0, The, ;shakespeares?
Emperor Napoleons Millitary, 60, 0, Gun, ; needs Conscription - building Arc de Triumph too big? Refitting Re-moleculiser Works
Florence Nightingales Hospital, 40, 0, Med,
National Space Agency, 50, 0, SFl, ; Newtons College
Thatchers Privatisation, 60, 0, Fun,
Einstein's Relativity Theory, 40, 0, Ato, ; need scientific theory
Houses of Parliament , 50, 0, Eco,
Eiffel Tower, 40, 0, SE, ; might be better as ohuse of parliament
Full Voting Franchise, 70, 0, Cmn,
Continental Diesel Railroad, 70, 0, Cmb,
Manhattan Project, 70, 0, NF,
United Nations, 70, 0, Fun,
Time-Space Navigator Project, 90, 0, Feu, ; needs Time Eng
A. I. Mind Centre, 70, 0, Cmp,
SETI Contact Program, 80, 0, FP, ; or Fusion Free Power plant?

These correspond to the Civ2 wonders of the following (also includes expiry sciences whereupon the wonder becomes useless)

Pyramids
SE, ; Hanging Gardens
nil, ; Colossus
Sup, ; Lighthouse ; APJ now WW2 Decoding Computer
E1, ; Great Library
Ind, ; Oracle - old religion reduction
Inv, ; Great Wall put slighty later
U1, ; Sun Tzu's War Academy ends with Breech loader
nil, ; King Richard's Crusade
Env, ; Marco Polo's Embassy
Cmn, ; Michelangelo
X6, ; Copernicus Pyramids
Stl, ; Magellan - Expiry change Steel transporters changes trade etc
nil, ; Shakespeare
Mob, ; Leonardo Da Vinci's Workshop APJ may be unwise to use this, if want to use non mechs on ancient world
Rad, ; Bach out of date with tv etc
nil, ; Newton - Nuclear fissions stops it (einsteins theories cancel it out)
FP, ; Smith's Trading Co. Thatchers privatisation, FP gives 'free' energy so services like electricity etc don't need privatisation??? economy messed up,need to find other system
nil, ; Darwin
Dem, ; Statue of Liberty - fundamentalists like anti communists etc stop gov changing quickly..
FP, ; Eiffel Tower
nil, ; Women's Suffrage lots of terrorism criminals soruns out
FP, ; Hoover Dam
nil, ; Manhattan Project -expire with uranium ban?
SFl, ; United Nations
nil, ; Apollo
nil, ; SETI
nil, ; Cure for Cancer

email : peter@artpac.demon.co.uk
(for info on getting my scenario which this came from -Civ2:tot version only right now)

Admiral PJ - riding the unicorn

Fresno · September 22, 2001, 06:50

Thanks for adding so many Dutch Wonders, Oligarf.
I would like to see these ones added:

Vondel's Theatre - Shakespeare's Theatre
Sweelinck's Works - Bach's Cathedral
Piet Heyn's Silver Fleet - More cash
Leeghwater's Project - Engineers work faster
The Europoort - Harbor in every coastal city
Allowed Abortion - One happy citizen in every city (and now I'm off to hide for all those foreign conservatives

.)

Fresno · September 22, 2001, 06:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah

How about: The Hunebeds?

Keukenhof = Hanging Gardens
Waterline = Great Wall
Karel ende Elegast = Heroic Epic
The Dom = Sistine Chapel
...

Great, there are many Dutch in this thread. I propose we start the Wilhelmus now

Oligarf · September 22, 2001, 07:01

NOT, I can't sing.

Hunebeds are nice, (I'm from Drenthe), our only wonder before the Golden Age.

But what about my Wonder Customizer?

Admiral PJ · September 22, 2001, 07:11

I don't see any reason why civ shouldn't go into the future, it just needs the futuristic bits to be done well, unlike the Civ:TOT and CTP games.
The old civ games had the alpha centauri ship launching at 2000 which seemed ok, though even that is pretty unrealistic in that timescale.

On the realistic side of things it would take the world till about 2100 in another couple generations to possibly consider world unity in the game another endgame winner(diplomatic win?)
We could do with some more futuristic government choices, such as Feudalist Industrial State(read empire).

The important thing is for gameplay, and futuristic millitary units would help extend the endgame (when you've discovered all the stealth bomber units etc things can be repetitive)

Good futuristic and beliavable things could be - laser artillery weapons(maybe spacebased for anti satellite attack, not surface bombardment), android robot workers, android soldiers(not that far in the future i think), more outerspace planetary colonisation, asteroid attacks.
WONDERS:
Even something like an Area51 UFO capture research lab wonder would be fun and creative. (even if there aren't aliens involved , though I think they probably are)
How about alien contact (wonder?) being an endgame? maybe in another scenario - but it would be immensely important for the human race (and maybe the aliens too .

PJ

Oligarf · September 22, 2001, 07:28

Everybody should design it's own wonder.
If you like sci-fi make sci-fi wonders, like economy make economic wonders, and so on.

Not so bad idea I think, than we have completed the quarrelling about which wonders should be included. The only thing we have to think about, which abilities could be given to wonders, and with which advances they should be linked.

Agree?

Oligarf bringing this topic to a higher level

BTW

Quote:

Allowed Abortion - One happy citizen in every city (and now I'm off to hide for all those foreign conservatives

.)

What about Legalized Suicide?

DonJoel · September 22, 2001, 07:34

The Statue of liberty definitely qualifies as a wonder. To me its the symbolic meaning of something that is considered not how high or big it is.
The Statue of Liberty is perhaps the most well know symbol of amerika, and stands for the wonder of freedom.
See? The wonder is freedom itself.

Fresno · September 22, 2001, 10:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Oligarf
What about Legalized Suicide?

Great, we should show those Americans our moral superiority

!

Oligarf · September 22, 2001, 10:57

Cause they actually are sweet little rabbits.

Oligarf · September 22, 2001, 11:15

I meant: 'Don't fly on those Americans' of course

Boris Godunov · September 23, 2001, 08:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Oligarf
Cause they actually are sweet little rabbits.

Hey!

Looks like I'm the only American posting in this thread at the moment, hehehe.

So I will warn you: don't forget we Americans are armed to the teeth! We shoot back. Not that we always hit, mind you, but if we fire enough bullets, we're bound to hit something.

Anyhoo...

Locutus · September 24, 2001, 14:11

Well, back to the topic...

I think the Wonder lists in all Civ games so far have been way too western-centric, there've been way too little Asian, African, Oceanian and Native American wonders. Below is a list of wonders I once made for a CtP mod that I never finished, I tried to include as many different nations as possible (that's why there's only 1 Greek wonder FE; only 'civs' like the Chinese and Indians have more, simply because they were never really a single civ). Because I can't imagine anyone knows all the wonders on this list, I also collected some info on them here. I ripped it all from various websites without editing it in any way so it's a little unpolished to say the least but it should give some sort of impression on what all these wonders are. Once again, I never finished the mod or even the list of wonders so I'm not saying this could be used straight away for Civ3 or any other game but it does contain some ideas that I for one have never seen anyone else mention before while IMHO they are all at least worth considering.

Code:

Civ		Name				Date		Location	Type
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lost Civ	Sunken City of Yonaguna		An 10500 BC(?)	Asia		Naval(?)
Egyptian	Pyramid of Cheops/Kufur		An 2550 BC	Africa		Production
Celtic		Stonehenge			An 2000 BC	Europe		Food
Nubian		Defuffa of Kerma		An 1700 BC	Africa		Happiness
Minoan		Labyrinth of the Minotaur	An 1700 BC	Europe		Trade
Hebrew		Temple of Solomon		An 1000-900 BC	Asia		Happ./Crime/Dipl.
Phoenician	Harbors of Carthage		An 814 BC	Africa		Naval
Babylonian	Hanging Gardens			An 810-783 BC	Asia		Happiness
Greek		Temple of Artemis		Cl 550 BC	Europe		Happ./Dipl./Trade
Persian		Palace of Persepolis		Cl 518 BC	Asia		Government
Roman		Via Appia			Cl 312 BC	Europe		Trade/Government
Qin Chinese	Great Wall			Cl 221 BC	Asia		Military
Philippinian	Banaue Rice Terraces		Cl +/- 0 AD	Oceania		Food
Mesoamerican	Teotihuacan			Cl 200 AD	America		Happiness
Tiahuanacu	Tiahuanacu			Cl 200 AD	America		Food
Byzanthine	Hagia Sophia			Cl 360 AD	Asia		Happiness
Christian	The Vatican			Me 400-500 AD	Europe		Happiness
Mayan		Chicken Itza			Me 500-600 AD	America		Crime
Micronesian	Nan Madol of Pohnpei		Me 500-1500 AD	Oceania		Government?
Sui Chinese	Great Canal			Me 607 AD	Asia		Trade/Food
Arab		Dome of the Rock		Me 687 AD	Asia		Happiness
Burmese		Shwe Dagon			Me 700 AD	Asia		Happiness
Indonesian	Borobudur			Me 800 AD	Oceania		Happiness
Morish		Great Mosque of Kairouan	Me 8?? AD	Africa		Happiness
English		Tower of London			Me 1066 AD	Europe		Military
Venetian	San Marco Basilica		Me 1071 AD	Europe		Happiness
Khmer		Angkor Wat			Me 1113-1150 AD	Asia		Happiness/Prod.
Russian		Kremlin				Me 1156 AD	Europe		Government
Bantu		Great Zimbabwe			Me +/- 1300 AD	Africa		Defense/Gov./Trade
Aztec		Tenochtitlán			Me 1325 AD	America		Food
Mongol/Timurid	Registan of Samarkand		Me 1370 AD	Asia		Science
Mali		Sankore Mosque of Timbuktu	Me 1400 AD	Africa		Science
Ming Chinese	Forbidden City			Re 1407 AD	Asia		Diplomacy
Polynesian	Easter Island			Re 1400-1600 AD	Oceania		Happiness
Incan		Machu Piccu			Re 1450-1550 AD	America		Happiness/Gov.
Turkish		Topkapi Palace			Re 1453 AD	Asia		Commerce/Trade
South Indian	Meenakshi Temple of Madurai	Re 1565-1781 AD	Asia		Happiness
Moghul Indian	Taj Mahal			Re 1632 AD	Asia		Happ/Dipl/Gov
French		Palais de Versailles		Re 1661 AD	Europe		Government
Benin		Palaces of Abomey		Re 1695 AD	Africa		Government
Japanese	Torii of Itsukushima		Re 1875 AD	Asia		Happiness
Spanish		Sagrada Familia			Mo 1882 AD	Europe		Happiness
Panamese	Panama Canal			Mo 1904 AD	America		Trade
Brazilian	Statue of Cristo Redentor	Mo 1931 AD	America		Happiness
American	Empire State Building		Mo 1931 AD	America		Trade/Commerce
Dutch		Delta Works			Mo 1953 AD	Europe		Food/Happiness
American	NORAD				Mo 1963 AD	America		Military
Australian	Opera House			Mo 1966 AD	Oceania		Happiness
Anglo-French	Channel Tunnel			Mo 1987 AD	International	Trade
Malaysian	Petronas Towers			Mo 1993 AD	Oceania		Trade/Commerce
International	Intern. Space Station Alpha	Mo 1998 AD	International	Science

Boris Godunov · September 24, 2001, 14:59

Quote:

Mayan Chicken Itza

It's Chichen Itza, not Chicken!

Or as I used to call it, Chicken Pizza.

Takeshi · September 24, 2001, 15:42

As for that "modern japanese" wonder that was raised a few posts ago, how about Kansai's floating airport? Ok, so it isn't really floating but as far as I know it's sitting on the biggest man-made island in the world and survived the Kobe quake, which is certainly no mean feat.

http://tlc.discovery.com/tlcpages/su...es_kansai.html

Locutus · September 25, 2001, 15:10

Oops, sorry Boris, that's what I meant of course. I always jokingly call it Chicken Itza (though I'll change that to Chicken Pizza right this instant, hadn't even thought of that!

) but I suppose I got a little too used to it

Takeshi,
I agree that that's a very suitable Japanese wonder as well. In fact, I originally wanted that as my Japanese wonder for that mod but I didn't have enough Renaissance/Industrial Age wonders so I went for for Torii after all (that famous castle, can't remember the name right now, was #3 on my list).

Triped · September 25, 2001, 15:17

I think you should be allowed to build a worldwide fast food network. That way nobody can complain

Fresno · September 26, 2001, 04:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Locutus
I think the Wonder lists in all Civ games so far have been way too western-centric, there've been way too little Asian, African, Oceanian and Native American wonders. Below is a list of wonders I once made for a CtP mod that I never finished, I tried to include as many different nations as possible (that's why there's only 1 Greek wonder FE; only 'civs' like the Chinese and Indians have more, simply because they were never really a single civ). Because I can't imagine anyone knows all the wonders on this list, I also collected some info on them

Wow, what a list. To be honest, there are even a few I didn't knew (yes, only a few - why do you think my avatar is a
professor?

). You've included nearly all the Wonders I asked for in this thread. I agree, there are too many western Wonders in the game, but that's because there are only a few non-European civs included. What happened with the Arabs, the Khmer, the Fenicians, the Incas, the Ottomans and many others?

Boris Godunov · September 26, 2001, 07:26

Civilization is a very Western/Eurocentric game. We Americans/Europeans are brought up on history that stresses the dominance of European Culture. The very concept we possess of "civilization" is a uniquely European one (I include America as a European culture, considering its roots). Ancient Asian and African cultures didn't even meet the high standards of what Europeans were considering "civilized" until recent scholars began to re-examine their cultures.

In the end, Civ3 will be a mainly European game. The designers can't help it...it's ingrained in all our backgrounds and upbringings. We've been taught since the beginning of our youthful educations that Columbus was such a great guy and we in America still celebrate a day for him. Who cares if he was a brutal conqueror who enslaved and murdered West Indians and never accepted the fact he'd failed to reach the East Indies (which he died claiming he had)? We were told Americas Founding Fathers were these noble patriots, so who cares if in reality many of them were no better than the terrorists we are fighting against today?

History is written by the winners. Europe can claim to have won out over the past 3 centuries or so. It's only now starting to shift to more global view of history.

Cheers.

Fresno · September 26, 2001, 13:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
So I will warn you: don't forget we Americans are armed to the teeth! We shoot back. Not that we always hit, mind you, but if we fire enough bullets, we're bound to hit something.

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Civilization is a very Western/Eurocentric game. We Americans/Europeans are brought up on history that stresses the dominance of European Culture. The very concept we possess of "civilization" is a uniquely European one (I include America as a European culture, considering its roots).

Conclusion: you were threatening your fellow-Europeans... What a shame!

Serious now:
You are right, the most advanced civilization is currently the Western one. But you can't exclude so many Asian and African civs and Wonders as in Civ2. The civilizations I mentioned just deserve to be included. Civ is about history. For example: for centuries the Muslim world was far more advanced as the Western one. But there isn't a single Muslim tribe in Civ2!

Boris Godunov · September 26, 2001, 14:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Fresno

Conclusion: you were threatening your fellow-Europeans... What a shame!

Serious now:
You are right, the most advanced civilization is currently the Western one. But you can't exclude so many Asian and African civs and Wonders as in Civ2. The civilizations I mentioned just deserve to be included. Civ is about history. For example: for centuries the Muslim world was far more advanced as the Western one. But there isn't a single Muslim tribe in Civ2!

Hehehe, I am a masochist, I suppose...

I 100%, categorically agree with you. I was just pointing out why it is the case that we all tend to have a European bias in all things historical. It doesn't make the bias right at all! I think, as the world gets smaller, that bias will become less and we will begin to see a more global concept of history.

I do think that they should have included a Muslim/Arab/Ottoman civ as one of the main civs, with Sulayman as the leader. The Caliphate was, after all, one of the greatest empires ever, and certainly dominated at one time. Its omission seems rather incomprehensible. I would rather see them as opposed to the Persians or the Iroquois. Certainly their impact on the world has been far greater.

Cheers

Fresno · September 27, 2001, 11:05

Absolutely

Locutus · September 28, 2001, 06:03

Well, I think that the designers should include many non-Western civs/wonders/etc especially because of all the bias. They should do (cq have done) what they did with Civ1 and Civ2: not only entertain but also educate. I mean, I bet 50% of the Civ2 audience had never heard of the Carthaginians before and had never considered the Persians as a major civilization, to name just 2 examples. I think they should have continued this line in Civ3 and take it a step further: include at least one Muslim (Arab, Turkish), South East Asian (Thai, Khmer) and sub-Saharan (Mali, Ghana, Zimbabwe but not the tiny and insignificant Zulu) civ and a bunch of non-Western wonders from my above list (or other non-Westerns wonders, there are plenty more).