Delenda sunt...

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by EOL
No huts. I usually use 2.42 but have FW as well.
EOL

Same here. In fact I have installed FW but not played at all yet ( too busy with the Rome and ww2 scenarios).
Sure we find some interesting challenges there, once we get started (the SGs seem to think that 'Napoleon' is worth having a look).

[DaveV]

Originally posted by La Fayette

Therefore, Dave, EOL, Marquis, please let us know whether you tipped huts or not

No huts. It's way too easy with huts, since the AI makes no effort to tip them.

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by DaveV
No huts. It's way too easy with huts, since the AI makes no effort to tip them.

But, if I state that the challenge is without huts, then our friend Marquis gets frustrated and our friend Xin Yu never tells us what happened to the Celts.
Therefore, I state it again: there are now 2 challenges: Rome scenario without huts (7 civs) + Rome scenario with huts (also 7 civs).
This means 14 possible record holders
(perhaps I should write 13 left, since DaveV's result with the Romans... without huts... won't be easy to beat)

[DaveV]

Originally posted by La Fayette
... since DaveV's result with the Romans... without huts... won't be easy to beat

If there's one thing I've learned during my time here, it's that no record is ever unbeatable.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

I'm not so sure the huts make a huge difference, as they usually come up with gold, units, barbarians, or nothing. The occasional tech is only sometimes helpful (and might actually slow research down), and the occasional advanced tribe more of a nusiance than a help.

I would find it frustrating to limit this to a hutless challenge. Huts are in my version of civ, and the AI does tip them if I don't first. They get the same goodies the human does. Any advanced tribe is one more city I need to sack. Any unit is one more I need to kill. In a race against the clock, this makes a difference.

I'm not a deity level master, and I simply don't put chess-like thought into micromanaging every city/unit every turn.

[La Fayette]

Rome scenario

Tiny Hall of Fame
(without huts)

Romans (43 years): DaveV
Seleucids (72 years): La Fayette
Carthaginians (74 years): EOL
Macedonians (89 years): La Fayette

Tiny Hall of Fame #2
(tipping huts)

Seleucids (74 years): Marquis de Sodaq
Independent (92 years): Marquis de Sodaq
Ptolemaic (96 years): Marquis de Sodaq
Celts (99 years): Marquis de Sodaq

It is NOT asked to conquer all cities.
What is required is taking (or destroying) all 21 objectives.

[La Fayette]

I had a try at Seleucids with hut tipping, for the sake of comparison:
All objectives Seleucids in 210.
This means 68 years (4 years shorter than my previous game without tipping huts).
Sorry, Marquis. It seems that hut tipping makes the game shorter.
(but I must have another try some day, using a strategy closer to Dave's; he's still 25 years ahead of this ).
...with the Romans though

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by La Fayette
This means 68 years (4 years shorter than my previous game without tipping huts).
Sorry, Marquis. It seems that hut tipping makes the game shorter.

Perhaps, but did you also take the time to build banks and colluseums? An old habit of mine I was unable to break, even with the clock ticking. Six years difference doesn't strike me as very significant, you might just be a slightly better player, too. Regardless, congratulations!

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
By the way La Fayette - now that you have UCC you might take a look at the 'Napoleon' scenario that comes with Fantastic Worlds. We looked at it very briefly last night - seems kewl ...

March 1804. Napoleon enters Baghdad.
All objective cities are now French...
and 'la Marseillaise' can be heard from Dublin to Cairo.


(but I go on wondering what 'kewl' means; my thick dictionary stays silent)

[Scouse Gits]

kewl -- a deliberate mis-spelling of 'cool' in an attempt o capture the preferred pronunciation of the young - my apologies.

Congratulations - we haven't got that far yet - what do you think of the scenario?

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
- what do you think of the scenario?

...kewl
There are 26 objective cities in that scenario, and that is fine for me.
I don't know if there are many people who are fond of micromanaging 100 cities or so, and spending more than 1 hour/turn. Personally, I am not (and in fact I have not played any big map for quite a long time, ...except ww2 because of the challenge ).
The map in the Napoleon scenario looks quite big, but less than 1/2 of it is really active, hence no boring endgame (34 turns needed to conquer all 26 objectives, and about 15 minutes/turn:
it was almost an 8 hours game).
I could not resist building strong trade routes and a navy (especially since Admiral Nelson had a very powerful batttleship (defence = 8!), but he commited suicide quite soon, attacking the mighty coastal fortress that I had been wary enough to build in Alexandria).
If I play it again, I shall make it shorter by using a more 'Davelike' {TM} strategy (aggressive from the very start).

[DrFell]

Gave this a go this afternoon using Romans, this time using capture capitals + bribe cities method (thanks Xin), and completed it by 238 BC (40 turns). Could've been done faster too, if it wasnt for my clumsiness (didnt realise Raphia was an objective, then sent a diplo to bribe it and found out it was the cap, so i took a few turns building + transporting an attack force). Can't really be compared to DaveV's record, as I went for objective cities only (not a ship chain in sight though ).

I didn't bother getting elephants on this one, keeping cease fire then provoking war seemed the best way (lost a ton of units outside Alexandria though due to a sneak attack). A good strategy seems to be attacking Greece first - Pella is very easy to destroy, a couple vet legions, catapult and a diplo will do nicely. While doing that you can also send another force down to take Syracuse + Carthage. This makes all Greece Cheaply bribable. Build units in Greece and send em off to take Antioch, whilst using the army left over from the Carthage invasion to take out Alexandria. Build Cats, Legions and Diplos in Italy and send 'em up to bribe Milan and capture La Tene. Bribe the remaining objectives. Suprising how quick it can be done actually, good fun.

By the way, does anyone have the huts version they could send me? It'd be interesting to give it a go using huts and see the difference in times.

[La Fayette]

Congratulations, DrFell!
I really did not think that Dave's record would be beaten so quickly ( even with Xin Yu's advice ).
Therefore, here's the tiny Hall of Fame:

ROME SCENARIO (without huts)

Romans (40 years): DrFell
Seleucids (72 years): La Fayette
Carthaginians (74 years): EOL
Macedonians (89 years): La Fayette
( + Celts, Independent, Ptolemaic: no record without caravan rehoming yet).

ROME SCENARIO (with huts)

Seleucids (68 years): La Fayette
Independent (92 years): Marquis de Sodaq
Ptolemaic (96 years): Marquis de Sodaq
Celts (99 years): Marquis de Sodaq
( + Carthaginians, Macedonians, Romans: no record without caravan rehoming yet).

Come on guys! Dave's record is now in the History books.
All the others should be easier to beat (and if you don't feel like beating anyone, there are 6 civs left with no record registrated yet).

A game with huts, I'm not clever enough yet to send you that
Let us hope one of the SGs reads this: they are very clever at that (and very smiling and helpful too ).

[Scouse Gits]

Sir! SG reporting for duty! Sir!

Unfortunately there is no 'with huts' scenario to send - AFAIK it simply depends upon the game version you use - v2.42 has the scenario with no huts, but the one provided with MGE/UCC has huts. However, assuming that I'm wrong, I append the rome.scn that came with my MP version - and appears to have huts when played with that version -- I have not tried to open this scenario with any of my non-MP game versions so Caveat Emptor

[DrFell]

Thanks for the scenario SG1 - I didn't think it would work either, but suprisingly it loads up in FW, and it has huts too! I might play it in MGE though, due to the AI agressiveness (I have a copy of TOT converted to MGE, but lacking the scenarios). This certainly makes the Celts + Carthaginians easier to play, as Romans I think I'll send a few horses over to Spain for a steady supply of cash+techs.

La Fayette - The thing is, this record could be smashed, if someone had a little better luck and was trying a bit more carefully than me. I just loaded up the scenario, started playing then realised how fast I'd conquered Greece and Carthage, and decided what the hell, I'll go for the record . If I'd gone for total conquest it would have taken much longer, so DaveV's total conquest record remains untouched, and I'm not going to be beating it anytime soon.

Next on my list - Rome as Romans with huts

[La Fayette]

IIRC, SG(1) used to have 'Delenda est Carthago' written somewhere in his sig. I notice that this is not written anywhere now.
Wise idea, IMO.



(the guy to the left is SG(2), explaining how to protect Carthage against fierce Roman attacks)

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Here's a genius idea to eliminate the need for two Halls of Fame. Start the scenario as the Celts. Before moving, save the game as a new scenario and toggle the goody box option. Nobody seems to want the Ptolomies, I'll lead them to glory!

Some of the reasons the outlying civs are going to be harder to win are simply distance. Reaching Gades or La Tene from the eastern mediterranean takes a minimum of 20 turns. The western civs start at least as far east as near the middle of the map, shortening the ground they need to cover...

[Marquis de Sodaq]

I replayed this (hutless) scenario thrice over the weekend. Two new standards can be added to the Hall of Fame. I tried to recapture the Seleucid title - your honor remains, La Fayette, as I didn't get La Tene until 199bc, a 78 year outing.

One of my primary problems with shaving years off the conquest is the irresistible urge for total conquest. I'd start expanding outward, sacking everything in my path. This time I waltzed past non-objectives, unless they were in the way. Also, I've avoided bribing cities, just a personal preference.

With the Ptolomies, I captured the final objective, La Tene, in 194bc - an 83 year conquest.

The Independent Greeks sacked Memphis in 181bc - a 96 year conquest.

The poor Celts start in despotism. I suspect the hutless game, with no government change, might be too much for me. I just nipped the century mark with huts. I said in an earlier post that I didn't think huts made too much of a difference; I'd say that isn't true for the Celts and maybe the Independents. The latter have nowhere to grow and increase the production base except Gaul, which is swarming with hostile Gauls...

[La Fayette]

Well done, Marquis, but don't be shy! You are allowed to conquer early even with the Seleucids (though not changing government might be a heavy handicap, especially with the Celts).

Rome scenario
TINY HALL OF FAME
(without huts)

Romans (40 years): DrFell
Seleucids (72 years): La Fayette
Carthaginians (74 years): EOL
Ptolemaic (83 years): Marquis de Sodaq
Macedonians (89 years): La Fayette
Independent (96 years): Marquis de Sodaq
Celts (?): (?)

(Hall of fame with huts unchanged)




(this guy is DaveV testing a new method to win the game in less than 40 years... with the Celts)

[La Fayette]

sorry, Marquis, I just had a try at the Rome scenario (tipping huts with the Ptolemaic): 88 years.
Therefore,

Tiny Hall of Fame
(with huts)

Seleucids (68 years): La Fayette
Ptolemaic (88 years): La Fayette
Independent (92 years): Marquis de Sodaq
Celts (99 years): Marquis de Sodaq

(Hall of Fame without huts unchanged)



(this guy is a greedy ICSer not willing to see our names in the hall)

...but they are

[KrazyHorse]

Eh? Am I missing something, or did you replace Marquis' 83 year record with an 88 year record? Since not tipping huts is a disadvantage, why doesn't his 83 without huts beat your 88 with huts?

[DrFell]

There are two halls of fame, one with huts and one without. The 83 yr record in the hall of fame with huts still stands. The without huts hall of fame has been updated.

[KrazyHorse]

Yeah, but if the no tipping record is better than the tipping record, shouldn't it be in both?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Actually, look more closely. The hutless record is my 83 years, the record with huts is now 88, replacing my old 96 year game. Maybe you should fire up the scenario, win in 82 years, and make it all moot! Four civs have yet to be entered in the Hall at all. Have a go, it's fun!

La Fayette, yes, not changing government is crippling to the Celts. The monarchies do quite well, but despotism is hard to put up with, especially in those far flung cities. The corruption is terrible, production is weak.

[La Fayette]

KrazyHorse
Have a try!
I bet those 88 years are quite easy to beat (perhaps after a bit of training ), since I had several bad periods (clever counter attacks by AI's diplos that cost me at least 6 ironclads + I simply forgot tipping most of the huts after my explorer got killed by barbs and I was busy elsewhere).
I am now busy giving a helping hand to the American independence (scenario Independence: I felt suddenly that, bearing the name of La Fayette, I had to play that one ), but I intend to come back to Rome after that .
Let us hope that DaveV, EOL, DrFell and Marquis de Sodaq also find some spare time, so that we get at least a record for each civ (with AND without huts ).

[La Fayette]

I was willing to write a definite number of years in front of one of the civs that had nothing yet, but I forgot to check before starting my game and played the Carthaginians (without huts) instead of the Celts.
Rhodes falls in 203. This means 75 years.
EOL, this leaves the Hall of Fame unchanged, since you won in 74 years.

(this guy is La Fayette, sorry for what happened)

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by DaveV
Due to not rereading this thread, I went for a total conquest victory instead of just capturing all the objective cities.

How will I find out the objectives of a scenario?

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by SlowThinker

How will I find out the objectives of a scenario?

Do you really intend to start PLAYING?
SlowThinker actually playing civ, that's news

The 2 main ways of finding the objectives are:
1) Check the 'Find City' pop up (when a city is objective, it is written there; so is the value: x2 or x3 when it happens). This is the way I use.
2) Read the rules.txt (or something like that: some people love reading these and even modifying them, but I don't).
There are sometimes differences between the different versions of the game, but it seems that they are due to hasty programming: some objectives happen to be forgotten in some versions but I have never heard of DIFFERENT objectives.
Good civing,ST!


( La Fayette, having a look at a savegame showing that SlowThinker HAS IN FACT TAKEN an objective)

[SlowThinker]

Thank you, La Fayette

Originally posted by La Fayette
Do you really intend to start PLAYING?
SlowThinker actually playing civ, that's news

maybe...

Originally posted by La Fayette
The 2 main ways of finding the objectives are:
1) Check the 'Find City' pop up (when a city is objective, it is written there; so is the value: x2 or x3 when it happens). This is the way I use.

x2 or x3 : is this multiplying? What is multiplied?

[SlowThinker]

What will happen if somebody else will destroy an Objective city? (I noticed that Pella was attacked hardly in the beginning of the scenario and its size is 1 now...)

Originally posted by La Fayette
What is required is taking (or destroying) all 21 objectives.

I have 16 objectives only...(MGE)