Delenda sunt...

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Thank you, La Fayette
x2 or x3 : is this multiplying? What is multiplied?

The base value of an objective is 1. Some objectives, considered more important by the author of the scenario, might have a value of 2 (written x2 in the pop up) or 3 (written x3).
For example, in the 'Alexandre' scenario, there are nine objectives value 1 + seven objectives value 3, for a total of 7*3 + 9 = 30.
Then 4 levels are given:
Decisive victory: 25
Marginal victory: 20
Marginal defeat: 15
Decisive defeat: 10
(those numbers are given as examples; I don't remember the real ones just now).

This system allows to avoid boring endgames (when you know perfectly that you have won, but there are 2 or 10 enemy cities left, hidden somewhere in the black, and you need hours and hours to find them).

(LaFayette, micromanaging a scenario with neither vet spies nor Magellan, and with a dozen of cities hidden on remote islands)

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Multiple objective cities count that multiple toward the total. For instance, Rome is a 2x objective, Pisae a 1x objective, giving the Romans 3 objectives toward the total of 20.

If an objective city is destroyed, it simply is eliminated from the total objectives. Your score can't be the maximum for the scenario, but it still counts as conquest for this thread!

I see that La Fayette has just posted a response ahead of mine. Hmmm... I'll continue typing. I've played Rome enough to have the objectives memorized. They are:

Gades
La Tene
Milan
Pisae
Rome (2x)
Syracuse
Pella
Athens
Delphi
Antioch
Seleucia (2x, 3x if C's Observatory is built)
Raphia
Alexandria (2x, 3x if Lighthouse is built)
Memphis
Carthage (2x if Lighthouse is built)

One of the cities in Greece is 2x, IIRC.

[SlowThinker]

Thank to both.

Is trade allowed in this scenario?
Trade advisor/supply and demand don't work...
Edit:
I am stupid. I don't have the trade yet...

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Before you do anything, trade techs! Each civ has something the others do not.

[SlowThinker]

Marquis,
I see. But I don't want to increase the advances cost (although I suppose I will be able to research just Engineering (I think it is useless) and one other tech)

I won't trade astronomy.
I don't know if I should to trade philosophy: I have to choose the tech after Engineering: crusaders or caravels or invention?

Edit typo:
caravels instead of caravans

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
Here's a genius idea to eliminate the need for two Halls of Fame. Start the scenario as the Celts. Before moving, save the game as a new scenario and toggle the goody box option.

If you save it as scenario then your productions boxes will be filled by one turn production and you will get an advantage.
I saved it regularly: it works too and with empty boxes.

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
Each civ has something the others do not.

Slow Thinker, I remember that you asked people to correct you since your english was so poor.
Be careful! Don't ask this guy, Marquis, he's from Minnesota!
English, the kind we learn at school, is 'each civ has something the others have not'.
Doncha agreeeeee, Marqueeeee?

(La Fayette, trying to improve his english on this forum)

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
I have to choose the tech after Engineering: crusaders or caravans or invention?

I suppose that a vast majority (including me) would be willing to answer 'Trade'.
But the more I play this game and the more I read new posts on this forum, the more I am convinced that perhaps someone comes next week and explains why it is much more profitable to play otherwise.
Do what pleases you, ST!

(La Fayette, his head turned towards the Beatles, singing 'all you need is fun, fun is all you need').

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by La Fayette
I suppose that a vast majority (including me) would be willing to answer 'Trade'.

I am sorry, there was a typo, i wanted to say "caravels".

I can trade the trade easily via diplomacy...

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
If you save it as scenario then your productions boxes will be filled by one turn production and you will get an advantage.
I saved it regularly: it works too and with empty boxes.

No, it works in this case. At least it did for me. The scenario opens with the Celts moving units. They are the purple civ, all cities on the map have already had their turn. Only the Celtic units remain. If you (as the Celts) don't move anybody, the only difference is the absence of goodie huts.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by La Fayette
Be careful! Don't ask this guy, Marquis, he's from Minnesota!
English, the kind we learn at school, is 'each civ has something the others have not'.
Doncha agreeeeee, Marqueeeee?

(La Fayette, trying to improve his english on this forum)

Aha, I live in Minnesota, but I ain't from 'roun here. Actually, a Minnesotan would say "Doncha tink?", not "Doncha agreeeeee." I could mail you a real book, "How to talk Minnesotan." It's very funny to people who know the dialect.

ST, trading can net you five or more techs. Judge for yourself if it's worth it. With a time frame of fewer than 100 turns, it might behoove you to trade, despite reservations.


(ST pondering whether or not to trade techs, and le Marquis encouraging him to do so)

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
No, it works in this case. At least it did for me. The scenario opens with the Celts moving units.

I play Romans...

Edit:
I should say I am preparing to play: I examine the map and examine the map...

[SlowThinker]

Is "unsinkable trireme" (omitting the third move) considered as cheat?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

ST: "I am preparing to play the Rome scenario, and because I am the SlowThinker, I examine the starting map position second day. I made a table of supply a demand, but I found out it changed after reloading!!"

It appears your posts were entered into the wrong threads!

I'd not noticed that supply and demand change at the game's begin. Perhaps because the only caravans at the start are hides, and these hides are always on their way to Rhodes (biggest payoff). Leave it to you to notice these details. Did all cities change?

I wonder if it is just a quirk that the game begins at a moment when supply and demand would have changed if it had been a regular game instead of a scenario.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
It appears your posts were entered into the wrong threads!

No, I thought it is more a general problem than a problem related to this scenario.

Did all cities change?

No, only demands of Rhodes, Athens, and maybe one or two more cities.
After next reloading (I stress I mean the reloading of the Civ program, not the .sav file), old values were back. It looks there are two sets of supply and demand (?).

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by La Fayette

Slow Thinker, I remember that you asked people to correct you since your english was so poor.
Be careful! Don't ask this guy, Marquis, he's from Minnesota!
English, the kind we learn at school, is 'each civ has something the others have not'.
Doncha agreeeeee, Marqueeeee?

(La Fayette, trying to improve his english on this forum)

implicit in marquis sentence - each civ has something the others do not have

we just leave out the "have"

as my junior high school French teacher used to say
"do not ask me why, because I cannot tell you why"
(usually in response to some question about French grammer)

In any case la fayette, your english "est meilleur (sp) que mon francais"

LOTM

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


implicit in marquis sentence - each civ has something the others do not have

we just leave out the "have"

LOTM

LOTM, this is exactly what I wished to stress.
Here is what I was taught at school:
'I do not have' is american english. It is considered completely forbidden in the UK (and other english speaking countries). What should be said (and written) is : 'I have not'.

True or false?

[La Fayette]

LOTM
Perhaps there are already people who say: 'I don't be'.
(since the english language is becoming some kind of international language, I wouldn't be surprised if people came to say 'she runned away' or 'they eated their meal').

(the guy to the left says: 'don't be afraid')

(the guy to the right says: 'I don't be afraid')

(La Fayette, looking at what happened to Shakespeare)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by La Fayette


LOTM, this is exactly what I wished to stress.
Here is what I was taught at school:
'I do not have' is american english. It is considered completely forbidden in the UK (and other english speaking countries). What should be said (and written) is : 'I have not'.

True or false?

"I have not"( as in "I have not a dog" or "i have it not" or "i speak not" or "I walk not" would all be considered formal, archaic, stilted here in the States.
I wont speak for UK, I would hope one of them would speak up, except to say that in UK regional and class usage varies rather more than in the states. I would say that to my ears "I hav not a dog" sounds UK upper class, not like general UK usage. Canada follows US in this as in majority (but by no means all) of usages, and I dont know about OZ (australia).

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by La Fayette
LOTM
Perhaps there are already people who say: 'I don't be'.
(since the english language is becoming some kind of international language, I wouldn't be surprised if people came to say 'she runned away' or 'they eated their meal').

AFAIK every american two year old does that (mine (no longer two) included) Then they learn their irregular verbs. I doubt that we will see the disappearance of irregular verbs in English, much though it would simplify learning the language. Despite English's current (and historically fairly short-lived) role as the worlds dominant second language, "Basic English" never took hold and probably never will. OTOH there has apparently developed a quite independent Indian English, alongside UK-US-Canada-Australia/NZ- South Africa Englishes, and there is a West Indian dialect, but both Indian and West Indian are in regular contact with US and UK. The distinctive American language formed when it took weeks to cross the Atlantic, and when there were no BBC programs on public televisiom, and no Hollywood films in London. My understanding is that UK, US and other forms of English have been drawing closer in the last 80 years, under the influence of media and travel. Id be surprised if the same thing werent happening also in the Francophone world (where I suspect for example that much of the content of Quebec radio and television must originate in Paris) ANother interesting thing will be the impact of the internet, which tends to divide along lines of language but not nationality (so among the english language civ sites like apolyton(based in Greece!) and Civfanatics there are french and german language sites, but i wouldnt expect an Austrian or quebecois site.

LOTM

[La Fayette]

Mylord
Thank you for this long and clear answer to my question.
Now waiting for a 'British' answer...

(La Fayette, happy to know)

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by La Fayette
Do you really intend to start PLAYING?
SlowThinker actually playing civ, that's news

La Fayette, I am incredibly fast: I have thought one week only about the starting position, and now I have played 5 turns in 12 hours.

But I have a question:
I play Romans, and in the attached savefile the city of Delphi (Independent) is marked as it would be in disorder. But if you investigate the city you will find out that happiness is OK.
I noticed more times in my civ tries that AI's cities obtain the disorder marker occasionally. Are they always content?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

ST, I think the AI takes immediate action to correct disorder. At your turn, the changes have already been put into effect. The AI starts the Independents with 10% luxuries, but your save game shows them at 30%. Also, the archer that just moved into Delphi may have caused a red shield the turn before.

[Rasputin]

May I ask what that actually means ???

My Dictionqary defines delenda as Things to be erased or blotted out

But cant find Sunt anywhere except as an acronym Specialized Undergraduate Navigator Training

But I am sure this threas is not about blotting out Navigation Training !!!!!

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by SlowThinker
and now I have played 5 turns in 12 hours.

in the attached savefile the city of Delphi (Independent) is marked as it would be in disorder. But if you investigate the city you will find out that happiness is OK.

1) Congratulations ST!
5 turns in 12 hours means 40 turns in 96 hours.
40 turns is the record with the Romans.
Therefore, if you play non-stop 24 hours a day, you might be able to finish this game in 4 days .

2) How do you investigate the city? Cheat mode?
I have never opened cheat mode up to now.
For me, if the city has a disorder flag, it means that I can bribe it half price. That's all.

(La Fayette, looking at his friend SlowThinker playing at record speed)

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Rasputin
May I ask what that actually means ???

My Dictionqary defines delenda as Things to be erased or blotted out

Your dictionary is right, Raz.
The original phrase is 'Delenda est Carthago' (= Carthage must be destroyed). My friend SG1 used to have that phrase in his signature.
But Carthage is not the only city to be sacked in this scenario (since there are 21 objectives IIRC).
That is why I used the plural ('Delenda sunt' = They must be destroyed) when naming the thread.

(La Fayette, trying to remember his Latin)

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
I think the AI takes immediate action to correct disorder. At your turn, the changes have already been put into effect.

I bribed the city for half price.
But I think I understand it. The AI's city map will take the effect next turn.

Originally posted by La Fayette
2) How do you investigate the city? Cheat mode?
I have never opened cheat mode up to now.

I investigated it via diplomat.

(I did some tests using cheat mode (I know you always test without the cheat mode ) the day when I started the Rome scenario. There was a thread somewhere that if you turn ON the cheat mode then all games are affected until you reload civ2.exe)

Originally posted by La Fayette
For me, if the city has a disorder flag, it means that I can bribe it half price. That's all.

Yes, but I didn't presume it at all! It broke my plans! I supposed I would take Delphi by force...

---

BTW, I am learning many things . I newly found out triremes don't take the veteran status from barracks...

[La Fayette]

I played 2 games this week, in honour of Xin Yu's CivManager.
Ptolem Yu, glorious leader of the Ptolemaic, managed to conquer all 21 objectives by 212BC (66 years).
Ben Hannibal, glorious leader of the Carthaginians, was victorious in 207BC (71 years).

Therefore the Tiny Hall of Fame for this scenario (with huts) is now as follows:

Ptolemaic: 66 years (La Fayette)
Seleucids: 68 years (La Fayette)
Carthaginians: 71 years (La Fayette)
Independent: 92 years (Marquis de Sodaq)
Celts: 99 years (Marquis de Sodaq)

[Xin Yu]

This scenario is full of luck. For example, playing Ptolemaic, at first set science to zero, disband a couple of units to build two explorers. Then go out and tip huts. If you are very luck, you get navigation, republic and physics before invention. Also you'll get a lot of cash from huts. So you change to republic and get Alexandria celebrate to size 12. Afterwards send a couple of caravans to Rhode. 400 golds for each hide caravan! Trade tech with somebody for university, then research steam engine! After delivering 3-4 caravans you get the tech (even without caravan rehoming). Then start to build iconclad. When you have a couple of these, you'll get all coastal cities, which includes 5 civ's capital. Then you can just bribe the rest of them. The only challenge will be the Celt's capital.

On the other hand, if you get a bunch of other techs then get invention, then the sea-domination way will take much longer. Land attack probably will take even more turns.

Let me try to reset hut results to see how many turns can I finish under the best scenario. I think it is not cheating since if I play 1000 times I must have at least once being this lucky.

[rah]

Originally posted by Xin Yu
Let me try to reset hut results to see how many turns can I finish under the best scenario. I think it is not cheating since if I play 1000 times I must have at least once being this lucky.

Rationalization at it's best. No, we prefer that you play it 1000 times till you get those breaks.

As long as you disclose that you reset, I don't have a problem with it, but I'm sure there are a few nitpickers here that might think otherwise

Who knows, it might start another challange. How fast can you do it using resets and other loopholes.