Thread Tools
Old September 21, 2001, 16:15   #31
d_dudy
Prince
 
d_dudy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: MO
Posts: 543
a fast unit to start the game off and explore with......like a scout? like a scout that expansionist civs get free off the bat?

1.1.2 sucks-for the war chariot, too

it should be 1.2.1 or 1.2.2
d_dudy is offline  
Old September 21, 2001, 16:45   #32
Skanky Burns
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansApolytoners Hall of FameACDG3 Spartans
 
Skanky Burns's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:39
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Skanky Father
Posts: 16,530
The movement/retreat thing does sound interesting... suppose you have your a whole pile of JWs near the enemy city. Its defended by 3 hoplites (might as well make it hard ). You order your JWs to attack (one at a time...) JW 1 attacks, takes the hoplite's health down by a third before having its health reduced to half. JW1 retreats. JW2 attacks, takes the hoplite's health down by a third before having its health reduced to half. JW2 retreats. Repeat until done. Capture city. The next turn, move your JWs into the city, and repair.

Conclusion: Enough 1.1.2 JWs can destroy multiple 1.3.1 hoplites without Any losses if done correctly and with enough numbers.

Admittedly, a single 15.8.3 unit could also achieve the same, but the JWs dont require resources, which is a bonus, and are available right at the start.

The Aztecs will be feared at the start of Civ 3 games
__________________
I'm building a wagon! On some other part of the internets, obviously (but not that other site).
Skanky Burns is offline  
Old September 21, 2001, 18:17   #33
Fiil
Warlord
 
Fiil's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of the cold north
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Romans donīt get their Legion in the stone age. Neither do they get it in 1950 AD; they get it (approximately) when they historically should. Not so for Actecs. Actecs should be strong sometime between 1000 and 1500 AD, not in the Stone Age. What is so hard to understand about that?
Remember that the Aztecs were in "the stone age" in 1000 to 1500 AD.
The units in civ do not get obsolete when the dates changes, only if you discover newer technology.

If you really want to translate history into civ2 you could just imagine that the aztecs entered the game in 14?? when another civ was destroyed.

I don't know how this will work in civ3 but I guess civs will still be paired in twos.
Fiil is offline  
Old September 21, 2001, 18:31   #34
Fiil
Warlord
 
Fiil's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of the cold north
Posts: 162
This was just what I was hoping for!

The Aztec warriors shouldn't be stronger than the Roman legionaries eventhough they appear later in history!!

And I don't think the JW is a bad UU for the Aztecs. With a bit of tactic it's easy to win a battle when you have 2 movement points because you decide the battlefield... You choose where to attack or take a last stand. And with UU without any resource requirements and probably costs like a standard warrior you can have swarms of JWs on your continent in no time!
I would choose the JWs over the war chariots and bowmen anytime because of the cost (probably half - maybe a third), they wont be worth their price if the JW attacks! (and that you can assure if you have plenty of units and no rush to get somewhere).
Fiil is offline  
Old September 21, 2001, 23:27   #35
Melios
Chieftain
 
Melios's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
This is precisely what I mean. Thatīs is why they are ahistorical. Romans donīt get their Legion in the stone age. Neither do they get it in 1950 AD; they get it (approximately) when they historically should. Not so for Actecs. Actecs should be strong sometime between 1000 and 1500 AD, not in the Stone Age. What is so hard to understand about that?
Then by that logic an Aztec civ shouldn't be allowed to start until 900AD.

If you want them to be historically accurate of course.
Melios is offline  
Old September 21, 2001, 23:31   #36
Txurce
Prince
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Santa Monica CA USA
Posts: 457
Quote:
Originally posted by d_dudy
a fast unit to start the game off and explore with......like a scout? like a scout that expansionist civs get free off the bat?

1.1.2 sucks-for the war chariot, too

it should be 1.2.1 or 1.2.2
A scout's attack factor is likely to be zero, wheras the JW have potential as swarm units capable of retreating to fight another day. This could be a meaningful advantage at the start of every game, when you are on even ground technologically with the AI. How often would you need the relatively minor edge of a UU later in the game against the typical AI opponent? (This assumes that all UU edges will be minor - including the fabled Panzer.)

The war chariot is another story, if it comes later in the game, or has higher costs. It's also too bad that two UU's have the same a/d/m factors. Not so unique!
Txurce is offline  
Old September 22, 2001, 11:45   #37
Comrade Tribune
Prince
 
Comrade Tribune's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 988
Quote:
Originally posted by Melios
Then by that logic an Aztec civ shouldn't be allowed to start until 900AD.

If you want them to be historically accurate of course.
No, what I really mean (but no one seems to understand) is Jaguars shouldnīt replace Warriors at all. They should replace an early medieval unit, such as spearmen, then they would fit into the timeline. They should be more powerful, but come at a later time. Simple, really.
Comrade Tribune is offline  
Old September 22, 2001, 12:02   #38
smellymummy
King
 
Local Time: 05:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,079
remember that aztecs are militaristic. The begining of the game they will be able to produce lots of JW (I'm guessing they will be cheap) and swarm enemies easily ... but most importantly, for each victory they have a greater chance to produce a great leader.

Was there a max to the amount of great leaders a civ can produce? I thought I read somewhere that it was 3, but I might be wrong. Anyway, having a whole bunch of great leaders still in the BC age (maybe even pre 2000BC), I bet the aztecs won't have much trouble pumping out wonders, or decimate neighboors.

As for swarming ("a la tank rush"), that could be a viable tactic, but we would probably be slowed down by support costs. Also, it's my experience with civs, that a well fortified phalanx can easily withstand several warrior attacks. However, how strong will it be against an army of warriors. or rather the Aztec JW.
smellymummy is offline  
Old September 22, 2001, 16:57   #39
jdd2007
NationStates
King
 
jdd2007's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,015
IMO, the jw will help in the begining but will mean nothing in the long run, while fe, the panzer will conquer many cities and will change things considerably

also IMO, the jw would have an attack of two or three, defense of one and TWO hitpoints to represent their toughness
jdd2007 is offline  
Old September 22, 2001, 18:23   #40
KrazyHorse
Deity
 
KrazyHorse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 138% of your RDA of Irony
Posts: 18,577
Comrade Tribune:

Jaguar Warriors appeared at the same military technology level as warriors. They had little in the way of armour, fought with blunt instruments, etc. Just because the Aztec empire passed through this level at 900a.d. doesn't mean that the game should "force" this development to occur at the Medieval Europe tech level. That would just be silly. If the Maori were included, should their UU (probably along the lines of Jag. Warrior, but even less "advanced") replace riflemen?
__________________
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
In Memoriam Adam Smith: a brilliant man, taken too soon
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
KrazyHorse is offline  
Old September 22, 2001, 18:38   #41
Steve Clark
King
 
Steve Clark's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,555
Comrade, once again, the only timeline in Civ is the one you control. It shouldn't have anything to do with the historical timeline. How do explain all of those challenges that my colleagues and I participate in at the Civ2-Strategy forum where we try many different ways to create challenging games like pre-1000ad spaceships?
Steve Clark is offline  
Old September 22, 2001, 20:49   #42
Inverse Icarus
Emperor
 
Inverse Icarus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


A-ha! So if, what if, for example, units with a higher movement rating could retreat from combat against units with a lower movement rating if they are losing? That might be an interesting twist...


Dan
STOP TOYING WITH US DAMMIT!



keep up the good work.

loving the information flow.

you *COULD* open a FTP which *MIGHT* have a copy of Civ3 in it.

more seriously, could you send me the endgame file? the replay thing? i want to make a program to record it (for mp games mostly). [original thread]

if the endgame thing is just stored in the save file, send me a save file
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
Inverse Icarus is offline  
Old September 22, 2001, 20:54   #43
mactbone
Prince
 
mactbone's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IGNORE ME
Posts: 728
Everyone keeps saying that the JW has such weak attack and everything, but look at *all* of the ancient units. Notice a trend?

1.1.1 Warrior
1.1.2 JW
1.2.1 Phalanx
1.3.1 Hoplite
etc., etc.

They *all* look worthless if you try to think of them in terms of Civ2 but when taken in context they aren't as sucky as you think.

Why would a Panzer roll over opponents but a JW not? Wouldn't it make less of a difference with modern units if a/d/m is only changed by one? Take these hypothetical stats -

6.5.2 Tank
7.5.2 Panzer
8.5.2 Modern Tank

Mathematically the difference between 1 and 2 is a LOT more than the difference between 6 and 7.
__________________
I never know their names, But i smile just the same
New faces...Strange places,
Most everything i see, Becomes a blur to me
-Grandaddy, "The Final Push to the Sum"
mactbone is offline  
Old September 23, 2001, 03:31   #44
Mongoloid Cow
Warlord
 
Mongoloid Cow's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:09
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 174
Good point MacTBone
Mongoloid Cow is offline  
Old September 23, 2001, 08:08   #45
jdd2007
NationStates
King
 
jdd2007's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,015
lets not get TOO technical but he IS right
jdd2007 is offline  
Old September 23, 2001, 08:19   #46
Steve Clark
King
 
Steve Clark's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:39
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,555
Not get too technical?!?! Then I guess you won't feel at home in the Civ3-Strategy forum where a number of us will break EVERYTHING down to their finite elements, as we have been doing for years in Civ2-Strategy. Good thing that there will still be a Civ3-General forum for, ahem, less strategic/technical civers.
Steve Clark is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:39.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright Đ The Apolyton Team