Scottish Civ for Civ3 expansion pack!

[Oerdin]

The purpose of this thread is to explore the possibilities for a Scottish civ in the Civ3 expansion pack. I personally am shocked that Sid didn't include the Scots so I'm hoping he rectifies this error by including them in the expansion pack that we all know is coming. So without further a-do let's get on with my proposal:
I think the Scots should be a Scientific and Industrious society. A short list of the inventions of Scotsmen would include the Television (John Baird), Penicillin (Alexander Fleming), the Bicycle (Kirkpatrick MacMillan), the steam engine (James Watt; who also helped write early electrical theory), the pneumatic tire (John Dunlop), the repeating rifle (Captian Patrick Ferguson), & the telephone (Alexander Graham Bell; born and educated in Scotlabd but later moved to America).
Just reading that list it becomes clear the Scots should be a scientific civilization, but why should they be industrious? Well, the industrious attribute seems to best comply with the "Hard work and thrift" philosophy that is so apart of the Scottish psyche. Plus the combination of Scientific & Industrious hasn't yet been filled by any other civ (Chinese where changed to Military & Industrious) so the Scots would be filling a vacant place in Civ3.
Their special unit should be The Highlander. The Highlander would be a regular swordsman who has a +1 movement bonus to reflect the superior maneuverability of the Highlander armies. In the middle ages several English armies arrived to do combat only to find the Highlanders were either gone or had flanked them. So a plus one to movement would be historically accurate and wouldn't unbalance the game.
The civ's golden age could be set off the building of the Adam Smith's trading company wonder. This makes sense because Adam Smith was a Scotsman plus his book "On the Wealth of Nations" and his trading company where both from Scotland. This would also historically comply with what could best be described as the Scottish golden age (the Post Napoleonic period of Europe).
So what do you folks think?

[Oerdin]

The male leader could be William Wallace or King James VI while the female leader would be Mary Stuart (as in Mary Queen of Scots). I think I would prefer to have James as the default head of state and William Wallace (a la Braveheart) to be the "great general" or special leader or what not.

[mactbone]

"Are you Mary Queen of Scots?"
"I am"
*clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash"
"I think she's dead."
"No, I'm not"
*clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash" *clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash"

[Dauphin]

I think the Spanish and Mongols should be in before the Scots

Having Scots as a civ as distinguished from the English is a good idea. Unfortunately the two nations got a bit too entangled and many people can't tell the difference.

I won't make a list of English famous scientists and inventors, it would take up too many pages.

[monolith94]

Yeah and I think that the Incas would be better then the Iroquis but then again if wishes were horses beggars would ride. . .

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by MacTBone
"Are you Mary Queen of Scots?"
"I am"
*clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash"
"I think she's dead."
"No, I'm not"
*clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash" *clash* *bang* *boom* "ugh" "crash"

LOL! Yes, I too am a Monty Pytheon fan....

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
I think the Spanish and Mongols should be in before the Scots

Having Scots as a civ as distinguished from the English is a good idea. Unfortunately the two nations got a bit too entangled and many people can't tell the difference.

I won't make a list of English famous scientists and inventors, it would take up too many pages.

Yes, We should consider the Spanish and Mongols for inclusion, however, having one civs or the other is not mutually exclusive. The truth is there is room for all three. Plus the 70+ votes that have been made for the Celts/Scots/Irish prove that there is a strong demand for some sort of Celt/Scots/Irish civ out there.
Celts are just the generic ancient name for Scots & Irish (plus other tribes such as Picts). There for the expansion pack should include one of the civs in this group; I personally, would like to see it be the Scots because they have the strongest historical base of the three from which we can work from. Also thanks to movies such as "Braveheart" and "Rob Roy" most people in the English speaking world are atleast some what familiar with the Scots.
Plus it would be so colorful to have Highlanders running around in Kilts.

[mactbone]

Ach Blarney stones, the Irish are better! Can the Scottish claim that they had a monk (maybe a Saint) who sailed to the New World and made it back? And then wrote it all in a book? I think not. Plus the Irish have their independence! Hmmm, I don't know a whole lot about Irish History, but they have thrown off at least three foreign rulers/ruling nations. I'm positive that they're better than the Scottish

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by MacTBone
Ach Blarney stones, the Irish are better! Can the Scottish claim that they had a monk (maybe a Saint) who sailed to the New World and made it back? And then wrote it all in a book? I think not. Plus the Irish have their independence! Hmmm, I don't know a whole lot about Irish History, but they have thrown off at least three foreign rulers/ruling nations. I'm positive that they're better than the Scottish

Well, the Scots got more points and more votes in the Apolyton poll. But don't take it hard lad... You could always join the IRA.

[Alexander I]

A better leader for the Scots than William Wallace would undoubtedly be Robert the Bruce, who actually won.

However, if there is even a CivIII expansion, I would consider the Celts as a far more likelihood than the Scots by themselves. But since the English are "Britain" in CivIII, it's quite possible that all the Scottish, Welsh and Irish cities are included with them.

(In the 1100s, Henry II became Lord of Ireland, and it stayed that way till 1916, I believe. Wales was conquered in the 1300s by Edward I, and Scotland was united with England in the 1700s, having been ruled as a dual monarchy for a time, (James I and VI of England and Scotland, etc.) it became Queen Anne of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, until the Irish had to run off with Eamon deValera, the Irish Hitler, and some other rubbish.)

[Oerdin]

In order to keep the application of the Scottish Civ rolling I took the top 32 names of Scottish cities from Call to Power II. It's interesting to note that both CTPI and CTPII include the Scots but Civ3 will not. Say what you will about the CTP series but they at least got one thing right....

Capital: Glasgow.

Other cities: Edinburgh, Stirling, Perth, Falkirk, Dunbar, Muir of Ord, Gairlock, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock, Cowdenbeath, Nairn, Bathgate, Linlithgow, Iverness, Melrose, Rothsay, Monifeth, Aviemore, Kirkaaldy, fraserburgh, Portlethen, Glenrothes, Dufftown, Findhorn, Borgue, Lockerbie, Dalkeith, Gretna, Dingwall, Glasgowl.

[Oerdin]

I see that I shall have to reinforce my argument in several way if I wish to gain acceptance. So let me respond to your last post and then I shall go over a few new points.

Originally posted by Alexander01
A better leader for the Scots than William Wallace would undoubtedly be Robert the Bruce, who actually won.

Your right Robert the Bruce would make a better head of State then William Wallace. Wallace could then be used as the nation's great war leader or general.

However, if there is even a CivIII expansion, I would consider the Celts as a far more likelihood than the Scots by themselves. But since the English are "Britain" in CivIII, it's quite possible that all the Scottish, Welsh and Irish cities are included with them.

I will respond to the Celts part below, however, I just check the Civ3 web site and it most surely lists an "English" civ and not a "British" one. If the civ's name was British then I would drop my petetion for the inclusion of Scotland (because the term Britian would include both England & Scotland) but since they don't then I have reasonable grounds to prosue the inclusion of Scotland. If England can be seporate then so can Scotland.

Point #1 Why Should the Term Scots and not Celts be used?
This is because there has never been any civilization named "Celts". Celtic is simply a language sub group (of which there are many sub-sub groups) of the Indoeuropean family not a nation. The Celtic language group streched from eastern China, south to Asia Minor and northwest to the British Isles. The largest and most populous country that more or less is a part of this sub-group is Scotland.

Point #2 Why should Scotland be differentiated from England?
The first reason is because it was a seporate country for atleast 1700 of the approximately 2000 years of recorded history in the British Isles. The Second reason is because the U.N. Education, Scientific, & Cultural Organization (UNESCO) considers Scotland to be culturally distinct from England with several "World Heritage Sites" (such as St. Kilda, Hadrian's Wall, old towne Edinbourgh, & the Orkney Islands' Neolithic monuments) considered to be major contributions to world culture (let us remember culture is very import in Civ3).

Point #3 But didn't the English conquer the Scottish?
Scotland has a proud history of Independence which began when they repulsed the invading Roman Legions (the English were conquered by the Romans). The English did speratically invade (1st invasion in 1160 with dozens following) and attempt to rule Scotland during the middle ages but they were never able to hold on to it. By 1314 the the English throw in the towel and once again recognized Scottish independance. In an interesting twist of fate in 1603 Elizabeth I (of England) died without an heir so James Stuart (King of Scotland) became the legal ruler of England as well. Thus, in a way, the Scottish took over the English and not vica versa.

[Alexander I]

I understand the points you are trying to make, Oerdin. I myself am a student of Scottish history.

However, in CivIII, the English civilization's nation name is Britain. (Like the Greek civilization's is Greece). So it appears the goose is already cooked.

I would also like to see te Scots, but in a game like CivIII it's not feasible. I can't visualize Firazis including smaller civilizations like CTP had (Jamaicans! ). That's why they chose Britain, I think.

I know the Scots have been independent for a long time; I know they have a different culture. They even have a different language, Scots, which although it is very similar to English, it is not the same. It developed separately over the course of time. Sort of like Danish and Swedish. They are different, but similar enough to be understood most of the time (though you'll have a fit trying to understand some of those true highlanders).

And there was a true Celtic culture. The La Tene Celt culture existed in present day France, Germany, and northern Italy while Rome was still keeping Hannibal's elephants out of its hair.

There really were a people known as the Celts, but it is also a wide-reaching name - Britons, Scots, Irish, Picts, welsh, Gauls, Bretons. They're all Celts.

Just like Germans can refer to lots of groups or to a specific civ. "Germanic" peoples and so on.

Does this all make sense?

[Dauphin]

However, in CivIII, the English civilization's nation name is Britain. (Like the Greek civilization's is Greece). So it appears the goose is already cooked.

It is only a text error that can be rectified. Many have said it before but its an unforgivable error. I only hope Firaxis correct it before shipping.

If they have used English and British interchangeably throughout the whole process then it might be substantially harder, aswell as damned annoying.

[Saint Marcus]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=25511

Civ: Scots
Capital: Glasgow
Leader: Mary Stuart
Attributes: Sci Ind
Special units: Highlander (swordsmen), Schiltron (pikemen)

Cities:
- Glasgow
- Edinburgh
- Stirling
- Perth
- Falkirk
- Dunbar
- Muir of Ord
- Gairlock
- Aberdeen
- Kilmarnock
- Cowdenbeath
- Nairn
- Bathgate
- Linlithgow
- Iverness
- Melrose
- Rothsay
- Monifeth
- Aviemore
- Kirkaaldy
- Fraserburgh
- Portlethen
- Glenrothes
- Dufftown
- Findhorn
- Borgue
- Lockerbie
- Dalkeith
- Gretna
- Dingwall

Leaders
- Robert
- Wallace
- MacAlpin
- MacBeth

Does anyone know any other Scottisch Great Leaders?

[Dauphin]

Scotland has a proud history of Independence which began when they repulsed the invading Roman Legions (the English were conquered by the Romans).

The land that the English now occupy was conquered by the Romans. The Angles and Saxons (along with Jutes and later Normans, Danes, Norwegians etc) didn't arrive to make the mongrel "English" race until the Romans had upped sticks and departed for a few centuries.

And I doubt the country of Scotland existed alongside the Romans.

Like the Scots we English have our pride in facts...

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Alexander01

And there was a true Celtic culture. The La Tene Celt culture existed in present day France, Germany, and northern Italy while Rome was still keeping Hannibal's elephants out of its hair.

There really were a people known as the Celts, but it is also a wide-reaching name - Britons, Scots, Irish, Picts, welsh, Gauls, Bretons. They're all Celts.

Let me use an example as to why this logic is wrong. Take the Slavs for example; you could run around say there should be a "Slav Civilization" in civ 3 however there has never been and there will never be a unified slavic state/civ. Instead we have Russians, Ukrainians, Bielrus (spelling?), Serbs, Croats, Bulgars, Macedonians, and an astounding number of other ethnic and cultural groups. You just can't have one group called "The Slavs" and pretend it is a viable civ. It isn't.
The same is true for "Celts". There is just to many different groups that are just to distantly related (or even just tangentially related) for us to consider them an orginized civ.
We recognize both Germans and English as a civ even though both are in the same "Germanic" family and we recognize Russia (not a "Slavic" civ) because Russia is the most powerful and most populous member of the Slavic sub group. Shouldn't we similiarly recongnize Scotland as the largest and most powerful "Celtic" group?

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Big Crunch


The land that the English now occupy was conquered by the Romans. The Angles and Saxons (along with Jutes and later Normans, Danes, Norwegians etc) didn't arrive to make the mongrel "English" race until the Romans had upped sticks and departed for a few centuries.

Your right Crunch, not all of the immigrinant groups which make up modern England where present in during the 1st century A.D.. When I said the English were conquered I should have said the territory of modern England (and Wales) was conquered by the Romans.

And I doubt the country of Scotland existed alongside the Romans.

Like the Scots we English have our pride in facts...

The Scotland of the 1st century was not the modern nation state that we know today, however, the country was unified enough that the Romans called it the Kingdom of Albion. Roman General Argicola, who invaded Scotland in 79-81AD, noted that the clans often fought amoungst themselves but that they all unified to repell the foreign invader. Argicola reported there were two main groups in the country which he calls the Scotti & the Pictti (We get the modern name Scotland form the Scotti).
So I wouldn't call ancient Scotland a pier of Rome but it was unified enough and possesed sufficent military strength to defeat the Romans. For for info on Scottish history read the page http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/index.html

[Dauphin]

however, the country was unified enough that the Romans called it the Kingdom of Albion

I thought Albion was the English lands, Caledonia the Scottish, and Hibernia the Irish?

[Felch]

I favor the celtic civ being Ireland, if only for geographic reasons. If Scotland were far enough away from England to make it viable on a world map, it would definitely be better. The only problem is that it is pressed right in there.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Mark L
Leaders
- Robert
- Wallace
- MacAlpin
- MacBeth

Does anyone know any other Scottish Great Leaders?

1. Kenneth MacAlpin- In 839A.D. he defeated the Picts and unified Scotland completely for the first time. Kenneth was known for his bravery in Battle.
2. William Wallace- Military leader who defeated the English invaders on several occasions. He was finally captured and executed.
3. Robert the Bruce- Defeated the English and reestablished complete independence in 1314.
4. MacBeth- A pretender for the Scottish throne who killed King Duncan in1034A.D. and then took over the country. He also waged a successful war that drove the Norwegian off of the main land (for a time).
5. James Ramsey Dalhouse- A Scottish Earl who lead British forces to their final victory in India. In honor of this he was named the 1st Governor-General of India. Dalhouse also set up the rail, canal, & road systems in India and the modern Indian legal system (still used today) was put in place while he was governor
6. King David I- a great modernizer and reformer who transformed Scotland into a modern (well modern for the 12th century) country. Unfortunately, he was a poor military leader and he was forced to give several counties to England.
7. Archibald Campell Argyll- Defeated Royalist Armies in 1645 and joined with Oliver Cromwell to behead King Charles I. Argyll & Cromwell then partitioned Britain with Argyll controlling Scotland and Cromwell controlling England. The monarchy was restored a decade later and Argyll was deposed.
8. Lt.-General Thomas Graham- Graham commanded the Scottish Regiment known as "The Black Watch" which meet with great success during the second half of the Napoleonic wars; most notably during the Peninsular campaign, the invasion of France, and the Battle of Waterloo. During Waterloo the Black Watch charged French lines yelling "Scotland Forever!" and broke a hole in Napoleon's lines which later lead to Napoleon ultimate defeat.
9. Calgacus "the Sword"- According to the Roman historian Tacitus in 89A.D. the Roman governor of Brittania (For Crunch, I won't call it England) General Agricola was defeated in the battle of Mons Graupius and forced to retreat from Scotland. This was the last time the Romans tried to conquer Scotland; from then on the Romans built walls & fortifications to try to contain the Scots.

Well these nine Scot warriors are all I could come up with on short notice. I will continue to do researchand see if I can't turn up a few more Scottish "great leaders". Can anyone else think of a few?

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Felch X
I favor the celtic civ being Ireland, if only for geographic reasons. If Scotland were far enough away from England to make it viable on a world map, it would definitely be better. The only problem is that it is pressed right in there.

Of course this ignores the fact that 90%-99% of all games will occur on a randomly generated map and not on a true world map.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
I thought Albion was the English lands, Caledonia the Scottish, and Hibernia the Irish?

Hmm, I had to look this up just to be sure. Here is what I found: Caledonia was the Roman name for the rugged, mountainous part of Scotland north of Stirlingshire. Ireland was named Lerne and Scotland is referred to as Albion, Alba, or Albon (all three seem to be used depending on who was writing).
The Romans didn't have much interest in Caledonia because much off it was wind swept hillside or moorland. In Fact it seems to have had an unsavory reputation and in Welsh it was known as Coed Celyddon (the Caledonian Forest), inhabited by spectres and madmen, including Myrddyn Wyllt (Mad Merlin).
I got all of this from www.britannia.com and it appears to be legitimate. It doesn't mention Hibernia but I know I've heard the name used for Ireland before. Perhaps Hibernia was a specific part of Ireland and not the name of the whole island? I don't know.
I also found I made a big mistake on the famous Scottish heroes post. It appears the Battle of Mons Graupius was a Roman victory and not a Scottish one. Calgacus "the sword" had his army defeated but the battle was so costly for the Romans that they decided Scotland wasn't worth it and they retreated back to England. The then built Hadrian's wall and Antonine's wall to try and keep the Scots in Scotland and out of England.

[Saint Marcus]

Constantine II: It was that in his early twenties, Constantine mac Aed became King of Pictland. The kingdom had been nearly destroyed by the Vikings, but its peoples, Picts and Gael, faced with the prospect of Viking conquest, had drawn together. In 902 AD, the Vikings, under Ivar the Younger of Dublin, returned to seize Dunkeld, where St Columba's relics were kept, and the rich farmlands around the River Tay. Constantine caught up with Ivar at Strathcarron in 904 AD, and, in a bitter struggle, Ivar and his Viking army were massacred. With the defeat of the Vikings, regeneration of the kingdom was Constantine's top priority. He remodelled the church along Gaelic lines and brought in a system of mormaers (earls) to defend the
kingdom more efficiently. He also renamed the territory, Alba, which is actually means Britain in Gaelic. Pictland was remade in a Gaelic image and the Scottish nation was launched. Constantine continued to extend Alba's influence across Scotland. The east coast, south of the river Forth and modern-day Edinburgh, was Angle territory and often very hostile at that, until 918 AD, when Constantine led his army into Northumbria. At the Battle of Corbridge, he forced Ragnall, the Viking King of York, to withdraw from the Angle earldom of Northumbria that stretched from Lothian to the Tyne. In return the restored earl, Eadred, recognised Constantine as his overlord. For the first time much of the land in modern-day Scotland was either under the direct kingship of the King of Alba or was under his rule as overlord.

[Saint Marcus]

James: On Robert the Bruce's death, his heart was sent on crusade to the Holyland, accompanied by 'Good Sir James Douglas'. Sir James, confronted by a huge army Moors whilst travelling through Spain with his crusaders, gallantly charged into battle, throwing the Bruce's heart before him and shouting: 'Lead on brave heart, I'll follow thee.' The heart was disovered the next day amongst the slain bodies by another Scottish Knight, who
brought it back to Abbey Melrose, where it was buried.

[Sandman]

1. Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland, not Glasgow.

2. It is worth considering that the Scottish Golden Age happened after the Act of Union in 1707. Prior to this, Scotland was an unsuccessful nation.

3. The Highlander is too much of a stereotype. And they were as much an enemy of lowland Scotland as anywhere else.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Sandman
1. Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland, not Glasgow.

2. It is worth considering that the Scottish Golden Age happened after the Act of Union in 1707. Prior to this, Scotland was an unsuccessful nation.

3. The Highlander is too much of a stereotype. And they were as much an enemy of lowland Scotland as anywhere else.

1. Edinburgh is the modern capital of Scotland but Glasgow was the historical Capital prior to the 1500s. Here's a quote from www.scotsmart.com.

"Although Parliament tended to meet in Edinburgh from mid 15thC it can only be described as 'official capital' under James V from around 1530. The Castle tended to always have been military and not the Royal residence. The monarch would stay at Holyrood but was more likely to be found at Falkland, Dunfermline, Stirling or Linlithgow". So technically we could have either Edinburgh or Glasgow as the Capital.

2. Now, as to Scotland being an "unsuccessful nation" prior to 1707. Are you aware that Scotland was unified under one king when England was still divided amongst seven different kingdoms? (This is the earliest unification of any modern European state) By 380 the Scots had been widely converted to Christianity and centers of learning such as Whitehorn were founded. By 1124 numerous castles,churches, fortifications, & trading centers had arisen with in the country plus the country was strong enough and successful enough that in 1165AD King William I (known as the Lion) raised an army and lead a Crusade to Palestine. Surely, if the country was weak and unsuccessful it wouldn't have been able to finance a war half a world away on another continent.

3. I personally like the highlander UU because it is uniquely Scottish and is well known by most people, however, I'd be happy to listen to any other alternatives. Can you come up with any, Sandman?

[Alexander I]

Regarding the previous statement that the Scots should be included as the largest Celtic civ just like the Russians are in as the largest Slavic civ --

First of all, there are hundreds of millions of Russians, and a high estimate for the Scottish population would be 20 million. Not too many.

I think CivIII is trying to go for civs with a greater impact on the world (with some politically correct continental representation), so the Scots are more likely to be lumped into Britain under the name "English" (CivII gave the Scottish cities to the English also).

Anyway, the Spanish will get in before the Scots ever do.

Nothing against Scots, by the way, I'm part Scottish and have worn a kilt and attempted to learn to play the pipes, though I've never dared touch haggis.

I think the Scots would fit more nicely in a concept such as Terra Universalis -- Europa Universalis on a global level. CivIII just doesn't have enough room for them.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Mark L
James: On Robert the Bruce's death, his heart was sent on crusade to the Holyland, accompanied by 'Good Sir James Douglas'. Sir James, confronted by a huge army Moors whilst travelling through Spain with his crusaders, gallantly charged into battle, throwing the Bruce's heart before him and shouting: 'Lead on brave heart, I'll follow thee.' The heart was disovered the next day amongst the slain bodies by another Scottish Knight, who
brought it back to Abbey Melrose, where it was buried.

I never knew this! This is most interesting because it means the Hollywood crowd got the focus of the movie "Braveheart" wrong. Not that this would be the first time Hollywood screwed things up. Thanks for the info Mark.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Alexander01
Regarding the previous statement that the Scots should be included as the largest Celtic civ just like the Russians are in as the largest Slavic civ --

First of all, there are hundreds of millions of Russians, and a high estimate for the Scottish population would be 20 million. Not too many.

I think CivIII is trying to go for civs with a greater impact on the world (with some politically correct continental representation), so the Scots are more likely to be lumped into Britain under the name "English" (CivII gave the Scottish cities to the English also).

Anyway, the Spanish will get in before the Scots ever do.

Nothing against Scots, by the way, I'm part Scottish and have worn a kilt and attempted to learn to play the pipes, though I've never dared touch haggis.

I think the Scots would fit more nicely in a concept such as Terra Universalis -- Europa Universalis on a global level. CivIII just doesn't have enough room for them.