is Joan of Arc politically correct? I want Clemencau

[Fiil]

Louis XIV, Le Roi du Soleil = the Sun King, is everything a leader should be in civ. (Well, maybe not nice - but this doesn't seem to be a issue in civ)

Napoleon wasn't even French (I know he was officially - but not otherwise). If Corse had been under another country he would have fought under their flag but with the same mission.
Napoleon wanted to rule the world and have all other men kiss his feet, these were his own goals - not the goals of France.
Of course he was popular - any victorious general is!

Do not choose these strange characters: Hitler, Napoleon, Akhenaton/Cleopatra (I know she's in ), Cromwell, Alexander (I know he's in too ) and Sulla/Nero.


Joan of Arc is suited for the job even less... too little is known about her and intensions. OK she probably was a good general - then make her a GL, not the ruler of France.

IMHO Civilization rulers should of course be great rulers who people know. But they should also be a good representative of their nation, someone who matches the civ specific abilities.
Choose the founder, or the ruler when the civ was at the peek of it's power (I know this is hard to define).

For the French Charles Magne, Louis le XIV or maybe even General de Gaulle should have been chosen!

[JellyDonut]

Double post. Thought I caught the typo before it processed...Damn!

[JellyDonut]

François Mitterrand doit être le chef français!

Sérieusement, à moi ça n'importe. Et probablement, ça n'importe aux gens qui ne peuvent pas lire ce message!

[Sarxis]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Joan of Arc (jeanne d'arc for you frenchies) seems to be included rather than such leaders as Charles De Gaulle, Napoleon, Louis XIV, St. Louis, Charlemagne at least in part with the idea that the game should be "politically correct" ie that it should include female leaders. This is seen by some as concession to the "left" This is profoundly ironic, as the cult of Jeanne d'arc was created in the late 19th c by catholic, royalist (ie RIGHT WING) frenchmen looking for a national symbol that was not associated the secular, democratic (ie Left wing) third Republic - as were the tricolor, the Marseillase, the 14th of July (instituted as a holiday for the first time by the third republic) It is both ironic, and a sign of how identity politics has distorted the left that this icon for the most backward and reactionary elements in French politics is considered "left wing"

Moi, I want Clemencau(sp?) for the French leader.

LOTM

Isn't Firaxis based in the USA?
How do you expect us stoopid Americans to know, let alone, care about that stuff?

[jdd2007]

How do you expect us stoopid Americans to know, let alone, care about that stuff?

PEOPLE, PEOPLE!!! ITS TOO LATE!!! JOAN IS ALREADY THE FRENCH LEADER!!!!!

[Fiil]

Originally posted by JellyDonut
François Mitterrand doit être le chef français!

Sérieusement, à moi ça n'importe. Et probablement, ça n'importe aux gens qui ne peuvent pas lire ce message!

Of course it doesn't matter a great deal, but when you can choose anyone why not make a good choice.
I know why they chose Jeanne - because they needed more female leaders... I just don't think this should justify choosing someone who never ruled anything. Mitterand would be a better choice by far.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Snapcase
Algeria. Perhaps "Genocidal" is a little strong.

De Gaulle regained power in 1958, and the French were out by 1962, IIRC. I can do a little research on French activity in Algeria from 1958 to 1962. I suspect it will show that genocidal is not "a little strong" but quite simply incorrect. Should it show this a more complete apology to the memory of the great man will be in order.

Charges of genocide should not be made lightly.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Anunikoba


Isn't Firaxis based in the USA?
How do you expect us stoopid Americans to know, let alone, care about that stuff?

Uh, perhaps because some of us Americans aren't so stupid. Firaxis is based in Baltimore, home of Johns Hopkins University, the Enoch Pratt library, and Bolton Hill intellectual snobs. They could find out all this without leaving the confines of crabtown.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Snapcase
that's true, but find someone who is not a history freak

I keep forgetting, Civ is not a game for history freaks, its about FUN

[Fiil]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I keep forgetting, Civ is not a game for history freaks, its about FUN

Is Joan of Arc fun??

[Phutnote]

I agree with Lord of the Mark.

I think Napoleon would be, from a historical perspective, a much better choice than Joan of Arc. From a marketing point of view, Joan's the way to go.

Why?

Napoleon was actually was the ruler of France. He implemented the Napoleonic Code. He was a military genius, conquered most of Europe, and spread the revolutionary ideas of France.

Compare with Joan of Arc: she was never ruler of France (the King was), she had no formal military training, her ability as a general was severely limited, she had no political role in the French government at any time, did not make any foreign or domestic policies, and was really little more than an overglorified mascot for the troops to rally behind. Lets not even go into her direct lne to god.

The argument that Nappie had to be rotated out because he was in Civ I doesn't hold: Elizabeth, Gandhi, Montezuma, Alexander, Abraham, Hammurabi, and Shaka were all in Civ I and are all in Civ III.

Both Joan and Nappie are famous French icons. But Napoleon I would say is both more famous and more influential: joan influenced France, Nappie influenced all of europe.

Dismissing the 'politically correct' or marketing factors in influencing the leader choice as outright 'bullshit' I think is close minded. there is simply too much that ways in Napoleon's favour.

Civ is one of those rare games that appeals outside the gamer market and to the mass public (how many games are mentioned in TIME mag favourably? ie. not articles about mindless shooters that cause teenage violence) .

By adding in the cultural elements and allowing for peaceful avenues of progress, Firaxis has the chance to broaden their market, which is why chosing Joan makes so much sense from a marketing perspective.

personally, I'm gonna miss Nappie and his pinched face look when I turn down his peace offers. Joan just doesn't have the character that the short little Emperor does.

Phutnote

[Inverse Icarus]

hey im just a dumb american ( ) but i dont remember joan ruling france!

oh yea. 5 on AP European History. ::victory dance::

[Rasbelin]

How about Petain?

My suggestions are Charles de Gaule, Raymond Poincare,
Georges Clemenceau and Louis XIV.

Pick yours!

[Rakki]

Atrix !

[Sun Zi 36]

I don't know what the "equal number of male and female leaders" is meant to reflect. I mean surely everyone would accept it as fact that at least in the past 5000 years men influenced history much more than women. So on a historical perspective, there is no reason why there should be equal male and female leaders. Why would u want to alter history just to be politically correct? I mean, giving the player the choice to play as male/female is already pretty fair.

On a second point, I think the English having Eliz I as their leader makes it a bit too much to have a female leader again in France. Maybe switch the female leader to somewhere else further away is a good idea.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Mark L
I agree. I want the Sun King in the game. He wasn't in any civ game

"The law? That's me"

He was in Civ2

[Kc7mxo]

Hmm. There's sixteen empires, right? How many have female leaders? 4? Cat, Liz, Joan, Cleo (and why the hell is it cleo and not nefeteri?),

on the other hand there's monty, abe, mao, ghandi, xerxes, julius, shaka, ham, tokugawa, hiathawa, bismark and alex.



thats 4 to 12. i don't mind having the four gals, even if it does mean loiue, henry, stalin, ramses are out. just wish they'd pickced better pictures. why'd they have to make Cat and Liz so damn old?

anyway, i don't paticuarly care as i'll probably turn off their annoying faces after a week or so anyway. :-)

[Master Marcus]

Originally posted by Snapcase
Add "person living in Montreal" to the list.

Do you have a name ???? Are you talking about the North american city I know so well, or the small village in France? two distinct worlds apart I'm afraid...

Btw, François Mitterand was perhaps the most politically correct leader of the 20th century. A centrist opportunist , and he was regularly praised even by U.S. politicians. Il vint de la gauche, mais géra comme un grand de la droite .

[KrazyHorse]

He was talking to me, since I professd to know who Clemenceau was. (And I didn't even know of the existence of Montreal, France)

He's probably right, though: As a quick guess, I'd put the percentage of the adult pop. who knows who Clemenceau was at <5%. Sad commentary on our educational system...

[Sarxis]

Oh don't get me wrong: I would rather see Napolean or even King Louis be leader. But, things are as they are.

[Rogan Josh]

I would vote for Napoleon first, then Louis XIV, and then Charlemange.

If they want another woman, find one from another civ. Is Catherine the Great the leader of the Russians, or is it Peter?

[squid]

I wanted Louis XIV or Charlemagne, preferably Charlemagne. Joan of Arc? That's silly.

For Egypt, they should have chosen a true Egyptian that influenced the mythology of Egypt. Ahkenaton, perhaps. Neferti would have made an excellent (and beautiful) woman ruler. Tut. died young.

Though I can not argue with Alexander the Great leading the Greeks, he did rule towards the end of the whole deal. Of course, you can't exactly have the entire Athenian senate ruling, can you? They need one person

Lincoln is not a president I greatly admire, but he is a fairly neutral choice and doesn't look terribly liberal.

England. They got that one wrong. It should have been Henry the 8th, clear enough.

Germany is dead on with Otto von Bismarck.

The lack of the Spanish is unsettling. The Spanish, like Great Britain, controlled nearly half the globe.

The Vikings were great explorers, but I can see the missing element since they are a lost civ....but so are the Mayans!
The Aztecs! All dead. The Aztecs or Mayans alone may have been enough.

I think it's horribly stupid to have Mao rule China, as China was most lucrative in real persuits before it turned to Communism, planned economics, and poverty -- before the "cultural" revolution. There were many good rulers to choose from.

And as far as the Spartan equivalent in SMAC, you can chose no better than the Mongols. And that would contest China on the world map very nicely and actually give a reason for the inclusion of the great wall.

The dynamics of the game look great. Leader choice seems to be influenced by a need to:
1) include more ladies (but not the right ones!)
2) include leaders the common person (not educated person) has heard of.

[lord of the mark]

Its not that Joan is politically correct -as those who have followed my postings know, Im dreadfully politically correct - i donbt want the game (ro any other cultural product) to be simply fun - I want to judge it for its social and political implications, what it teaches and what it ought to teach - thats PC, isnt it?

What dismays me is that political correctness has been drained of meaningful political content, and used to refer to a way of thinking that judges people based solely on their racial or gender identity - ie Joan is a woman, ergo putting her in is "progressive" without an ounce of thought as to what Joan believed or represented. Thats why I chose Clemenceau - not just that he led France in one of its greatest (though horribly costly) grand strategic triumphs - world war one - his force of will makes him the virtual churchill of that war - but also because his role in French domestic politics was PROGRESSIVE - the only other conceivable DEMOCRATIC leader for France is De Gaulle, and De gaulle was definitely a conservative. Clemenceau was a leader of a radical movement, which while it shied away from socialism, wanted both a firm commitment of the state to social and economic justice, and a thorough going commitment to democracy. He is a worthy model for current "third way" politics - I would think much more of Civ3 if it honoured such as him. For those who have followed my "German travesty- weimar mod" thread, you will see that here I am attempting to address similar issues wrt France.

LOTM