PBEM game

[DrSpike]

I'm new to AC MP, although I'm a civ2 vet. I'd like to start a PBEM game, say 4 players, with me as university. Details can be arranged if anyone is interested.

[gooeyblob]

I am mostly interested by your request goodly doctor. I warn you of impending doom in store I do.... Yet I can see from the boldness of your type the integral courage that is buried in the golden glow of your beautiful soul.

I`ll take any race you deem suitable for my quest

[DrSpike]

k, that's 2, and googlie has offered to cmn. Since I haven't played AC MP I'm not sure what details people want for the game, so feel free to suggest something if you want to join. To start the ball rolling I suggest standard random map, 4 players + 3 AI on, say, thinker. Blind research off, spoils of war on (I'm a civ2 player, it's more comforting)

[SamIAm]

I'd like to join the game; pretty much any settings are ok. I am in the process of playing my first PBEM game so I'm pretty new also.

[DrSpike]

great, that's 3. I'd like one more. Come on, you _know_ you want to. Of the two of you that joined so far do you want AI or just 4 players?

[Avenoct]

If you play with spoils of war you might want to make it no-AI.

If you play without spoils of war I'd be glad to join. Also, I've set up a few games if you need a hand, give me an email alde_baron@yahoo.com

-Smack

[DrSpike]

k, I need an explanation for both of those statements What is the link between spoils of war and AI, and why wouldn't you play with spoils of war enabled. I'm sure you have good reasons, but any newbies will have a hard time guessing them!

[Avenoct]

Yeah, sorry for the ambiguity...with spoils of war, a player gains a tech for taking a base. An intelligent player might take an AI base, give it back, and take it again, and there are only 76 techs in the tech tree. A human player won't fall for this kind of Shenanigan. Secondly, if all goes well, the humans will kill off the AI, or make them submit...there's rarely an MP game when the AI wins. So you can calculate that if the AI manages to build 40 bases, that's 10 free techs per player. I'd rather earn the techs through research or probe-action, or trading. It's just my own point of view and I can see where it would be fun to have Spoils of War in an All-Human game. Still, this tends to magnify the benefits of the winning player and snowballs the game toward it's conclusion faster than I really enjoy.

There's my 2 EC's.

-Smack

[DrSpike]

Hmm, the AI thing makes sense.

As a civ2 player I can see your other point, but in civ2 the leading player often doesn't have a tech to select, because he already has all the techs of the weaker player. I'm not sure if that applies with the wider SMAC tech tree.

Anyway either we could play spoils of war with the 4 of us and no AI. Otherwise we could play with spoils of war off and just 4, or 4 + 3 AI. What is the difference? Any preferences? Either way we have 4 players and a CMN (Googlie), so play should commence asap.

I'm playing university. I propose we give SamIam next choice of faction, since Smack and gooeyblob are clearly going to hand our asses to us. I suppose the game is too balanced for there to be any recognised weaker factions we could stick Smack and gooeyblob with?

I would like to play as quickly as possible, since this is going to be a learning game for me. Again, I don't know the convention, but as I understand it the factions have a move order, and we should discuss times of availability to make the game as smooth as possible.

Thoughts?

[gooeyblob]

I suggest we start PRONTO!

With 4 players +3 AI please.
Anymore than 4 or 5 players can slow the game down to a crawl
Don`t care bout spoils.....

My faction of preference for eating newbiescum alive is the Hive

[DrSpike]

I already said you don't get your faction of choice, since you offered to play any. Neither does smack if he doesn't protest too loudly, who I have a sneaking suspicion has played a few games. I think I will ask googlie which to give you......

K, no spoils of war, 4 players + 3 AI. Standard random map and non blind research. Googlie will CMN I think, though I need to contact him. I think everyone is happy. I'll play university, samIam can choose next faction and then you guys get whatever. I doubt it will make much difference to the ass handing part.

We start as soon as smack and samiam confirm, and we play quickly!

[Avenoct]

I like the handicapping idea, but none here are really ranked for MP...we'll see what Googlie has to say. Read Vel's guide if you havn't already and you'll know just about all there is to know about Smac strategy..it's a very good and comprehensive guide. Typically the Believers are seen as a weak faction with all the others about equal. Builders favor Zak or Morgan and Conquerers favor the Spartans or Yang, but the Gaians and PK's are truly excellent.

I'm sure you'll do fine, and I make you this promise now as a handicap: We can switch factions if things get way out of hand...but I really don't think they will. I'm competetive, but I'm a school teacher and enjoy the learning process on all sides.

If you can't get ahold of Googlie I can set up the game...but it is nice to have an experienced CMN like Googlie on the 'outside' as it were.

I can play quickly and would be overjoyed if we managed 2+ turns a day. Its easy to make promises..the proof's in the pudding, but one thing to do is to ask the CMN to step in automatically if a player misses X hours of play, say 24.

-S-

[DrSpike]

Great suggestions. Where is vel's guide?

I vote we give believers to "I will take any faction" gooeyblob

I have icq'ed googlie, when samiam confirms we can start.

Times of day (preferably GMT) that people can play from all of you might help us allocate factions so as maximise speed.

Anway its 3am, and I'm going to bed. Tomorrow we fight.

[Googlie]

OK - here's a suggestion:

SMAC v 4.0

Thinker level

Spoils off, 4 humans 3 AI, and I'll strengthen the AI so that it won't be a pushover in the early to mid game. Hrere's how:

DrSpike : University
Gooeyblob - Hive
SamIAm - Gaians
Smack - Morgan

The AI will be tweaked so that Santiago and Miriam have sworn eternal fealty to Lal (he has permanently enslaved them). In other games that has created a pretty strong AI as they do combine their research efforts - and Sparta and the Believers do provide some muscle to an otherwise anemic PK faction.

Co-op victory is on, so that players can team up (remember no more than 3 can share in a co-op victory - so the AI Alliance can win a co-op victory)

Directed research, pod scattering, no random events

I'd suggest a large random Planet rather than Standard (gives the builders a bit of a chance - as well as the AI). Average everything (but don't worry, SamIAm, I'll give you plenty fungus to romp around in)

I'll create the scenario this evening - any dissenters to those conditions please post ASAP

Googlie

Oh, and DrSpike - you can download Vel's pre-publication guide at the Spartan Chronicles site:

http://googlie2.tripod.com/spartanchronicles/id10.html

Cheers,

G.

[Avenoct]

The AI will be tweaked so that Santiago and Miriam have sworn eternal fealty to Lal (he has permanently enslaved them). In other games that has created a pretty strong AI as they do combine their research efforts - and Sparta and the Believers do provide some muscle to an otherwise anemic PK faction.

Being that this is a first Smac MP game for some peoples, I'm not sure it's the best time to bring in permapacting. I'd love to play such a game though Googlie...if you set up any in the near future let me know (I know about the scenarios..I mean an MP game). Still, seeing as it's a thinker level game with experienced strategists I think people will do o.k..

-S-

[SamIAm]

Great! I'm fine with the proposed settings. I'll go with whatever you guys decide on the AI stuff (any game will be a learning experiance for me.) I do prefer a larger map though, the bigger the better.

I guess I will be playing the first turn as the Gaians.
My e mail is SamHenson at letu.edu (replace "at" with "@")

I am in the Central Time Zone (USA) and can usually play from 3-4 in the afternoon till about midnight, then at about 7 in the morning. (don't know if it is worth the effort to coordinate)

I look forward to a great game!

[DrSpike]

I'm unsure about this pact thing. Are we (the humans) supposed also to cooperate? I would have thought not, which seems to give the AI an advantage. Also, how are you strengthening the AI, Googlie?

[Googlie]

The AI is strengthened thru the submissive pact - trouble with PBEMs is that the player in closest proximity to AI factions will invariably win, all other things being equal, as he will rapidly conquer AI bases and factions.

(Thus CMNs find that the hardest part of setting up a game - giving equal access to AI spoils - which is why many PBEMs drop the AI completely, as being too unbalancing)

By setting up a submissive arrangement (and we don't need to make it permanent - so one could pry say, Sparta, from Lal) we - in this case - would double the PK/Sparta research (they share - Believers are pretty useless in research) as well as ensuring that you, the human players, now think twice about just going on the rampage against an AI faction, 'cos attack one and you attack all 3 'cos of their pact.

As an example of the research powerhouse they become, lal starts with Biogenetics and Miriam with Social Psych. They have each otherc commlinks, and Miriam is a lal submissive. Turn one she gives him Soc Psych. Turn ten or so he gets Secrets of the Human Brain, with its free tech advance. and so on.

But in the AI diplomacy and strategy settings (in the scenario editor) I can focus each of the three AI factions on different things - eg make theSpartans concentrate on land development, the Believers on Air and the PKs on land and sea. I can make the PKs a pop-boom faction, and the Believers a probe-rich faction, etc. I can do these, of course, independent of making them submissives to a Lal or Santiago - this latter feature, as I say, makes their research co-ordinated and shared, as well as influencing the game somewhat.

eg again, Lal would certainly get the Empath Guild and be the perennial Planetary Governor - which makes the game from the human point of view that much more challenging (as many consider the EG to be the gamebreaker SP in a human's hands) as you'd have to pact or probe for infiltration (or take the EG base from Lal).

Thanks to their combined research, Sparta would be first to impact weapons, followed next turn by Miriam - again adding a different dimension to the game - a much stronger AI. They'll be first to Air Power as well, again a change from the norm in PBEMs with AI factions.

Diplomacy becomes interesting if, for example, in the scenario diplomacy settings I make Lal pacifist (he becomes a builder) and Sparta and Believers belligerent. And if I make the latter hostile to two human factions and "will betray" to the other two (different pairs for both AI's) but make Lal co-operative to all 4, then the tensions that emerge are a great additio9n to gameplay.

The net result of this would be to put the AI on a roughly equal footing with the individual human players for at least half to two-thirds of the game (they'll be stronger in the first 50 years, will slowly move to parity over the next 50, then the humans will move ahead, thanks to better management decisions (energy crawlers, sea trawlers, etc) and strategy.

Another way to make the AI stronger (but I wouldn't do it in this game unless asked) would be to give them 3 forested tiles around their HQ base, with a crawler on each. In other games, this "suggestion" planted in the AI's "mind" has been enough to, after 100 years, see an AI faction with 30 or 40 crawlers, which as anyone will tell you, is rare indeed. (course they only crawl minerals from forested squares - the concept of a crawlered energy park is utterly alien, but at least it's a start)

As to forcing co-operation among the humans - I don't think it makes it any more compelling than otherwise. You'll find that with 4 players you will inevitably forge a loose 2 vs 2 alliance. I can leave "co-op victory" off, so that there is only one winner. you might still have the 2 vs 2 alliances, but eventually one of the pairs would stab the other in the back to get victory.

Anyway, I'll await your instructions ...

Googlie

[DrSpike]

You clearly have a lot of experience with this game! A lot of those points are obvious, but only when then have been pointed out! I agree with the AI thing, I guess even on transcend good players will get an advantage from being closely situated to the AI.

The game you propose sounds like an interesting introduction to SMAC MP. After reading your comments I would also like to play a solely human game. Perhaps we could play 2 simultaneously with the same players? What do you all think?

We should start as soon as googlie can set up and everyone confirms. As Smack suggested I think we should have a 24 hour limit on each players turn. Hopefully we can do 1 or 2 entire turns a day, but a restriction like the one above will stop it slowing down. Clearly, though, we can be flexible if someone knows they are to be away for the weekend etc.

[Avenoct]

One Game, Two Game, is all fine with me. Make the executive decision and we'll get on with it!

-Smack

[DrSpike]

k, execcutive decision it is.

We play 2 games, googlie's one and just 4 humans, same factions and details.

We play reasonably fast, googlie suggests we set the limit not at 24hours but 48 hours.

Samiam moves first in both games, googlie will mail when everything is complete.

Details:

SGSS-4 (the no AI game)
and
SGSS-7 (the tweaked AI game)

Thanks to googlie for his time and effort

[SamIAm]

OK, I'm ready. Let's get these games rolling!

[DrSpike]

I think googlie will send the relevant stuff when he's finished it.

[Googlie]

DrSpike and gooeyblob:

Can you send an e-mail to me at:

linfrew@aol.com

so that I have your e-mail addresses on file (and to send you the passwords)

DrSpike:

Which free tech would you like as the Uni?

Thanks

G.

[DrSpike]

Everything is set, let battle commence.