America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[TCO]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Nope. I just have come to the conclusion that despite whatever "morals" I make up for myself, I think I would be capable of mass murder if sufficiently motivated (don't worry; personal gain probably wouldn't be part of it), and I think this might class me as a sociopath. Oh well.

See you in your sleep, GP...

p.s.: I also think that I'd make a damn fine dictator, and that worries me sometimes.

I think my number 6 idea was cute...

[TCO]

Originally posted by oriel94
(lots of good stuff)

I like your style. I went up and down the East Coast of Australia while in the USN. It's a fun country. The people seem like British Texans or something. Sydney is a great town. The only "real city". (Admittedly I haven't been to Melbourne.)

[TCO]

Originally posted by MacTBone
Wheee, I'm taking a linguistics course and I get to use what I've learned!

I. Proto-Indo-European

A. Germanic

1. German
2. English
3. Dutch
4. Danish
5. Swedish
6. Norwegian
7. etc.

B. Celtic

1. Gaelic
2. Irish
3. Welsh
4. etc.

C. Italic (Latin)

1. Italian
2. Spanish
3. French
4. Portugese
5. Romanion
6. etc.

D. Hellenic (Ancient Greek)

1. Greek (They're silly aren't they )

E. Balto-Slavic

1. Baltic

a. Latvian
b. Lithunanian

2. Slavic

a. Russian
b. Polish
c. Czech
d. Bulgarian
e. etc.

F. Indo-Iranian

1. Indic (Sanskrit)

a. Hindi
b. Bengali

2. Iranian

a. Persian

There you go, we should have these 6 civs plus a Chinese, South American tribe and North American tribe civ and we're done
Lot's o' fun!

I think the problem we're having is that right now we don't classify divisions with civilization, we use the term country. That's where everyone's stumbling. We have in our mind that a civ must be old, very old. That's not always the case. From now on I will use the word civ instead of country because it will help you understand.
The American civ is the most widely diverse civ ever, in fact it's diversity is the REASON it can be considered a civ. Consider that the American civ has incorporated the ideas and languages of multiple civs, added a few unique elements then called it their own. Much like the English, Romans, and any other Empire that traded heavily with various lands or had multiple peoples call it home.

BTW, I have my posts per page at 100, so there is no page seven for me, but if you look at page one or so, I posted there

What are the Finns? Basques? Arabs?

[TCO]

Originally posted by Arent

6)Me I'm studying international physics in Leipzig. Am I now more intelligent than you? You writing a political book? No, two?? Everyone please read his previous posts (page 7)

Arent

1. That you would so quickly want to show your intellectual d*ck size , shows more about you than others. (Oriel was demonstrating relevant study in the area of our discussion. No reason to think you need to demonstrate your IQ to us...)

2. Oriel was much more temperate, balanced and interesting in his posts than you.

3. Eagerly waiting screed reply...but feel free to surprise me with some depth...would make my day, little physicer...

[TCO]

Originally posted by oriel94
(more good stuff)

Oriel, you're cordially invited to grace the OT (Off Topic Forum) with your prescence. (This link will only work for oriel.)

[Drake Tungsten]

What the hell is international physics? Are the laws of nature different depending on which country you are in?

[Arent]

Sorry GP, I just can't stand jingoism.
Can get a little rough about it.
Democracy in Usa is dying cause of it.

Arent

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
What the hell is international physics? Are the laws of nature different depending on which country you are in?

Well, if you think about it they are. In Europe the speed of light is 3 x 10 ⁸ m s^-1. In the US its 187,500 miles per second.

[Drake Tungsten]

I stand corrected.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Arent
Sorry GP, I just can't stand jingoism.
Can get a little rough about it.
Democracy in Usa is dying cause of it.

Arent

Nah. Europe has far more draconian measures that intrude on people's daily lives, including mandatory DNA sampling in England. Sure, countries like the Netherlands can afford to be free and be totally democratic, but they also get a freeride on defense and their population is so small they can probably be a communist state and do just fine. Small populations are easy to control you know.

As a large scale democracy, the United States is very much alive. Although I would argue that it is a Republican Democracy, and not a parliamentary one. There is a significant difference.

As for Jingoism, Americans can afford to be Jingoisitc because unlike those ungrateful nations who are getting a freeride on so many things, including defense, they do walk the walk, and not just talk the talk.

[dexters]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
I have ancesotors going back to 2b.c. from Germany

That would be after 100-odd generations, therefore so do a lot of people.

it can count itself as one of the most influencial nations to have ever existed.

At present, but in 100 or 1000 years time will it be seen as such. Even after 2000 years the Roman Empire is still remembered as a great empire, after 100 years the British Empire has similar accolades, but the Spanish are largely ignored despite being the world power for longer than the US has currently.

Well, the Spanish burned themselves out. They basically plundered the new world, and did not see the value of trade as the English/Americans did. I infact resent Spain's plundering of the new world, you rat bastards!

Even at their height, Spain's Armada could not defeat the British, and the Spanish Armada was what made it great in its global conquest. So it can be argued that Spanish power is simply an illusion, in the sense that even at its height, it was second to the British.

Also, historians might consider the Americans to be part of the British heritage. This means when they write about the rise of the British power, it will include the shifting of power to the United States, but it will be treated as a phase in the historical records, and not a separate event. One can say the British is to the Americans as the Greeks were to the Romans.

[Dauphin]

. So it can be argued that Spanish power is simply an illusion, in the sense that even at its height, it was second to the British

Not really. Just because they lost that battle did not mean the British were more powerful. The newly declared US beat the English in the war of independence, but this does not mean the English were second to the US at that point. Just a fateful victory, a case of the underdog winning that time around.

including mandatory DNA sampling in England

Where did you get that from. In police investigations its still voluntary, and in the public sector (e.g health insurance) forget it, its not permitted even if it helps your cause. (Even if it weren't its no more draconian than compulsary fingerprint taking)

[TCO]

Originally posted by Arent
Sorry GP, I just can't stand jingoism.
Can get a little rough about it.
Democracy in Usa is dying cause of it.

Arent

This is the land of the free and the brave. The bastion of freedom. The good guys who stood up to the Soviets. It hasn't been that long that you had a Kaiser, no?

[Sun Zi 36]

Yes, Europe had not persistently had democratic governments like USA but that only reveals the surface. The practice of mob rule and execution without trial - lynching - in USA did not end until 1968. Racial riots were not uncommon even in the late 1980s such as the confrontation in Forsyth County, Georgia, in 1987. I m not trying to undermine American democracy or freedom, only want to provide a less one-sided view.

[Fresno]

GP

Originally posted by GP
This is the land of the free and the brave. The bastion of freedom. The good guys who stood up to the Soviets

It is also the land of Irangate, Vietnam and the KKK.

I don't want to offend any Americans by saying this, since I know they did some good things as well. But it isn't just a country of 'good guys'.

[TCO]

Sun,

Oh, I know we're not perfect. It's just that we get so much anti-American "balence" (look at this thread for instance) that I have to remind people how TRULY special this place is. Remeber that a big factor in the liberal, urbane Europe that exists know is what the US did to free it from fascism and to protect it from communism.

FYI: I've worked in Europe and have a European born mother and relatives. So I've seen both sides...Sure ther are Americans who don't know much about Europe and have a one-sided view of how great the US. But I actually find that level of ignorance less galling than the pseudo-intellecutal "sophistication" of some coddled Western Euros...

[TCO]

Originally posted by Fresno
GP
It is also the land of Irangate, Vietnam and the KKK.

I don't want to offend any Americans by saying this, since I know they did some good things as well. But it isn't just a country of 'good guys'.

That you would equate those three things, shows what a swaddled little baby you are...

We fought the good fight in Viet Nam. (My uncle led the raid on Haiphong Harbor.) The communist North were brutal thugs who shredded that country after then 75 takeover. Do you care about the literally millions of VietNamese who tried to escape there in tiny boats? Do you know about how many braved rape and piracy and death from thirst and exposure to escape those brutal thugs? Nah...not important...only revisionist history against the US catches your eye...

Irangate was an improperly handled secret mission. There is no big huge evil shame there. The guys involved should lose their jobs, but the purposes were noble (freeing American citizens in Lebanon).

The KKK is basically non-existent nowadays. But OF COURSE it was and is an evil bunch of idiots.

Did I say America was a country only of good? No! You concentrate on our minor flaws, while ignoring our great acheivements. That's childish. Which is more significant?

I've worked and travelled (both as a civilian and in the military) in Asia, US, Europe (including Amstedam). I suggest you "get some time on the pond" yourself. Your level of thinking will go up and you'll be able to contribute a little more thought to the discussion...

[Fresno]

GP:

Did I say America was a country only of good? No! You concentrate on our minor flaws, while ignoring our great acheivements. That's childish. Which is more significant?

You DID say America was

the land of the free and the brave. The bastion of freedom. The good guys who stood up to the Soviets

This is a very one-sided view, and therefore I tried to nuance it. I also said I don't deny the good things America brought. But apparently, you're not capable of understanding a nuanced view; you only want to read criticism.

[Fresno]

Moderators, please delete this post.

[sachmo71]

Hey, wasn't the question originally about whether America was OLD ENOUGH to be in Civ 3? If it still is about that, who cares about age? It's about the historical impact the civilization had on the world AND who will buy the most copies of the game. They are staying.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Fresno
GP:
You DID say America was This is a very one-sided view, and therefore I tried to nuance it. I also said I don't deny the good things America brought. But apparently, you're not capable of understanding a nuanced view; you only want to read criticism.

That I posted the good things about America is not the same as saying that I think we do only good. This world and your non-German occupied country is better off overall for the US.

Let me make it clearer!

-the good outweighs the bad.
-I'm responding to this thread and earlier posts which is an anti-American (jealous) thread.

And finally. WE ARE THE DESIGNERS OF CIV. That alone shifts the balance to pro-USA!!

[Sun Zi 36]

"Hey, wasn't the question originally about whether America was OLD ENOUGH to be in Civ 3? If it still is about that, who cares about age? It's about the historical impact the civilization had on the world AND who will buy the most copies of the game. They are staying."

Dont worry man, America is staying no matter wat we say. We are just arguing whether it SHOULD. Yea everyone agree age has little to do with it. Thats why we have deviated from that issue.

[KrazyHorse]

Well this has progressed from silly to stupid now. Cries of "Nazi" and "Communist" have begun to fly. GP, what's with the mess of posts you just went through? I get the feeling you're trying to stir things up worse than they already are.

[KrazyHorse]

I think I missed the point of #6

"Blame it on the butterfly ballet"?

[TCO]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Well this has progressed from silly to stupid now. Cries of "Nazi" and "Communist" have begun to fly. GP, what's with the mess of posts you just went through? I get the feeling you're trying to stir things up worse than they already are.

Ok, I was being a ****. I'll bring my level of discussion up.

[TCO]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I think I missed the point of #6

"Blame it on the butterfly ballet"?

it was a reference to the confusing Palm Beach ballot. maybe the spelling kinda killed the joke...

[Dauphin]

I'm responding to this thread and earlier posts which is an anti-American (jealous) thread.

Of all American's arrogant traits I think this is the one that annoys me.- the belief that everyone want to be like America.

[TCO]

BC,

It's more to the effect of others spending a lot of time worrying what we're up to, wanting to change us, and maybe just a tad bit of jealousy of the size/power/cultural prevelance. But if that doesn't apply to you...COOL! Word up. Good for you. Live and let live.

[KrazyHorse]

Yes! Now everybody hug.

Can you feel the ?

[Dauphin]

just a tad bit of jealousy

Many times I have heard Americans say how everybody wants to be Americans, or everyone is jealous of America for one reason or another, but a clarification should be made, as its not true.

For example I don't *want* my country to have your lifestyle, economic muscle, military might, but I won't say no to it obviously. I am more concerned with greater standard of living, disposable income, social justices etc...

When it comes to cultural prevalence, it doesn't bother me. Just because McDonalds or Coca-Cola is American doesn't mean that we have been Americanised by them (we aren't about to pick up your notorius gun culture for example), neither has America been Anglicised by watching Teletubbies or the Spice girls. Basically I feel that culture only spreads if it is amenable to the citizens of the country to which it is being exported. Loads of culture nuances have been picked up due to there useful, interesting or entertaining value. Its almost a pick'n'mix - take the "good" culture and ignore the "bad".