America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[jan3]

Originally posted by Admiral Stukov
There is a difference between criticism and bashing. Look at the poll? Are you trying to say America is an uncivilized nation? Sure we may have pushed Indians off their land (despite popular belief, we didn't massacre them... European diseases did), but around the same time Britian was busy annihilating the China because China wouldn't buy Opium. Honestly, some of you people should look at your own countries atrocities before you look at Americas. Sure America ain't perfect... but your country sure as hell ain't either.

this stuff is going out of hand......jeezes ALL country's did things that couldent see the daylight. and off course the leader must get bashed up
but they are all the same call it jealousy or hatred......
me for my part i like america ....well the citizens...not the way it is runned by the governement but hell there must be americans to who dont like some stuff their leaders do to so......
noone is perfect......but showing the wrongs of others is easyer then admitting their own....
so please stop all this it's all nonsens....the world is like this .....maybe one day it will improve but we can only hope for it

[Admiral Stukov]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin

Quote:

Now, seriously, some of the things on this board just sicken me. Whether it be the American Super Patriots which probably provoked people in the first place, or the European Super Hypocrites which have ultimately provoked me

Stukov, what worries me most is that you are troubled by the poll and peoples statements. If someone said something nonsensical about another issue would it trouble you also? If I said something ridiculous like "America is too backward to have sent men to the moon" would you feel it necessary to proove me wrong? Is it worth wasting the effort?

RE rhe poll, it is designed to be divisive, howevere there is a reasonable debate to be had here, but do you really believe (for example) Rosacrux wants to see the USA blown up by nukes? I don't believe he does.

Everyone has opinions, but then everyone has an ****hole too. Just ignore the stupid comments.

For the record, I voted for the second option.

Who said I was troubled by the poll? I just think its plain stupid and ignorant... this whole topic in general. It seems some European expect me and other Americans to sit idle while they crack jokes at America (the funniest of which barely sparked a millisecond of a half chuckle in the backest darkest reaches of my mind). Like Fresno said... "Its not the Europeans critisizing America, is the Americans not liking being critisized." WTF? Does this guy honestly think the whole world revolves around European opinions? Maybe in the Industrial Age, but not in the Enlighted world.

I understand that some of the Super Patriots on this board may have provoked European hatred toward America... but you must admit, the whole "We saved your asses" is partially true in WW2 (it was actually the American and Russian additions to the war), but definetly true in the Cold War. The United States payed billions just to ensure that Russian tanks never reached the Atlantic, and the thanks we get are people cracking nonstop stupid comments on America, and some geek saying "America's products are crappy" (amusing how he is saying this on a board based off an American-made game...).

If you want my highest opinion.... all I can say is:

Europeans, Americans, Austrialians, Asians, Africians... it's one world aint it? To bad so many other people can't figure that out.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Admiral Stukov
There is a difference between criticism and bashing. Look at the poll? Are you trying to say America is an uncivilized nation? Sure we may have pushed Indians off their land (despite popular belief, we didn't massacre them... European diseases did), but around the same time Britian was busy annihilating the China because China wouldn't buy Opium. Honestly, some of you people should look at your own countries atrocities before you look at Americas. Sure America ain't perfect... but your country sure as hell ain't either.

Off course I don't think America is an uncivilized nation. You take the poll too seriously. If you read what I said on this thread you would know I'm not an America-hater. The only reason why I think America shouldn't be regarded as a civilization is because they are too young - but I explained all this before.

And I know my country is far from perfect too. Believe me, I criticize the Netherlands very, very often. The difference is that many Americans can't stand critisism (your reaction was a great example), while many Europeans have overgrown this foolish kind of nationalism.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Admiral Stukov
Like Fresno said... "Its not the Europeans critisizing America, is the Americans not liking being critisized." WTF? Does this guy honestly think the whole world revolves around European opinions? Maybe in the Industrial Age, but not in the Enlighted world.

Did I say that??? Let's see:

Instead of asking why Europeans criticize America, I would like to ask why some (not all) American nationalists on this thread can't stand criticism. No country is perfect, so why pretend your country is better as others?

Now that's something different. I just meant every nation is critisized, also the USA. Only some Americans start ranting.

[Admiral Stukov]

Like I said.... so you Europeans can bash America all you want, but when I or any other American tries to defend the country, we are "ignorant nationalists"? Conceited Europeans.

**EXAMPLE:

If I was to say "All people from the Netherlands are ignorant self righteous morons", you or any other person from the Netherlands could/would not speak out against that? Oh, sure.

One thing that really amuses me is when you start to prove someone on a forum wrong, they take one little sentence out of an entire essay and start to do nitty picking with it.

"Its not the Europeans critisizing America, is the Americans not liking being critisized."

is basically

"Instead of asking why Europeans criticize America, I would like to ask why some (not all) American nationalists on this thread can't stand criticism. "

only more straight to the point. The American "nationalists" as you call them can't stand criticism because they are being critisized over the most stupid reasons. You make it sound like a bad thing.


I shall direct this to you Fresno, and Sagacious Dolphin... you two seem to have nothing else better to do with your time than bash America (or "critisize" as you like to call it...... the toned down version I guess makes you guys feel less like the bad guys)... my question is, why is that?

[Fresno]

Sigh... As you said earlier, there is a difference between criticizing and bashing. Your example is ridiculous. No-one said Americans are self righteous morons or whatever. Otherwise it would have been bashing indeed. All I said is America isn't OLD enough to be included in Civilization. My criticism on American politics and so on hasn't got anything to do with that view. It was always in response to posts which said that America (or the 'Anglosphere') was the greatest empire ever, the land of the good guys, and so on. This gave a very one-sided view, so I mentioned America's flaws. Sometimes I tried to bring this discussion back to normal, either by adding some humor, or by asking new questions. But every time someone like you turns up and changes the whole discussion in a quarrel again.

And about the 'little sentence': All I said was this: Every country is criticized, not only America. When I say I don't like the British politics considering the Euro, I'm criticizing, not bashing. But when I say I don't like certain aspects of American politics in the third world, it is suddenly bashing? Strange.

[jan3]

well known fact is that the truth hurts.
but then again that can be said about alot of country's.
and whe are off again.................................pfff........ ...............

[Dauphin]

the whole "We saved your asses" is partially true in WW2 (it was actually the American and Russian additions to the war),

Maybe for the continental countries that were occupied, but what about Britain? The Germans had not been able to invade even when it was just Germany vs Britain. The British are proud of this non-capitulation and defiance, and for Americans to say "We saved your asses" or "You would be speaking German if it weren't for us" is plain wrong.

but definetly true in the Cold War. The United States payed billions just to ensure that Russian tanks never reached the Atlantic

True the Russians would have easily won a conventional war without US involvement, but I think the French and British nukes would have left Moscow and many other Russian cities a wasteland.

If you are about say that the US gave nukes to France and Britain (debatabble), remember where the Russians stole their nuke technology from....

I shall direct this to you Fresno, and Sagacious Dolphin... you two seem to have nothing else better to do with your time than bash America (or "critisize" as you like to call it

When did I criticise, I suggested you ignore the ridiculous comments "criticizing" the US. I say the same to Europeans who should ignore Americans making ridiculous claims about Europe. Anyone suggesting nuking Europe or the US is a good thing is not worth arguing with.

[jan3]

saved your asses hmmm.......america came only here to stop russia from expanding and nothing else sorry.......

[Evil Robot]

Originally posted by jan3
saved your asses hmmm.......america came only here to stop russia from expanding and nothing else sorry.......

Of course Pearl Harbor and Germany declaring war on us had nothing to do with it. You're exhibiting a Cold War mentality when there WAS no cold war. Besides, at the end of 1941, the war wasn't going 'decidedly well' for the Russians. I don't think losing 5 million men counts as going 'decidedly well'.

[Dauphin]

There was a vested interest. I doubt the US would like to have woken up one day in the late 1940s to find a superpower Nazi Europe and a superpower Japanese dictatorship throughout Asia and the Pacific. America would probably enter the war at some point even if not directly attacked, out of necessity of stopping such a situation.

It might be worth remembering that if the Americans had not entered the war until a few years later (say 1944), they would have bombing raids and V3s raining down on Washington and New York in 1946.

[Admiral Stukov]

Christ, I come forth to simply try to put an end to all the endless America "Criticism" as you like to call it, and you guys cling to it like its your life or something, claiming its "perfectly right" to say something ridiculous about American hamburgers.

Sigh... As you said earlier, there is a difference between criticizing and bashing. Your example is ridiculous. No-one said Americans are self righteous morons or whatever. Otherwise it would have been bashing indeed.

Meanwhile, saying America is "uncivilized", or even going as far as calling our Civilization "barbarians", should be ignored because its not serious "criticism" towards the United States.

This is what I had in mind:
The leader of the Barbarian Americans has sent us a message: "We shall mercilessly sack the city of Kabul unless you pay us 562 gold at once!"

The whole reason I even replied to this topic was to stop all the crap like that. Instead, you guys started to warp my words around to make it look like I was talking about your pretty much true views on America in WW2, or our questionable politics. Like you said, no country is perfect.

All I said is America isn't OLD enough to be included in Civilization.

As I will state again... first, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH CIVILIZATION AGE. I seriously doubt that if there was a nation more recent than America in the game, you guys would cook up much a fuss about it. However, there is always someone who finds it fun to start a huge, ill-backed debate that has something to do with Anti-American.

The next paragraph was explained a bit above.

Sometimes I tried to bring this discussion back to normal, either by adding some humor, or by asking new questions. But every time someone like you turns up and changes the whole discussion in a quarrel again.

Now they start breaking out the BS forum tactics... trying to make his wrongful doings look like acts of "humor" and "good for the forum". Not only does this make you look like an ass, but it alone brings "humor" to me. The only thing that "We shall mercilessly sack the city of Kabul unless you pay us 562 gold at once!" is going to do is make some ignorant Europeans who think its hip to bash America cackle, while pissing off even more Americans (ie: ME). The reason I came along and ruined your little party and I was a big mean person who everyone should hate and other rampaging BS was because you were STILL cracking lame jokes at America even after all the other "American Nationalists" had finished and had their fill with the rampaging crap.

And about the 'little sentence': All I said was this: Every country is criticized, not only America. When I say I don't like the British politics considering the Euro, I'm criticizing, not bashing. But when I say I don't like certain aspects of American politics in the third world, it is suddenly bashing? Strange.

NO COUNTRY is more criticised than America these days. Try looking it in an American perspectigve.... think of it as "All your base" somewhat... it was barely even funny the first time, what makes it better when it is constantly popping up all over the place, burying itself in a deeper grave?

Maybe for the continental countries that were occupied, but what about Britain? The Germans had not been able to invade even when it was just Germany vs Britain. The British are proud of this non-capitulation and defiance, and for Americans to say "We saved your asses" or "You would be speaking German if it weren't for us" is plain wrong.

If America had no entered the war, Russia would have had ALOT more trouble if there was only one front. It was the American assistance that brought the Britian/American front to the West of Germany. Another interesting fact is that America sent supplies to the allies throughout the war ("The Arsenal of Democracy").

Had it not been for America, the German-Russian front would have been a VERY long and devastating theatre. I cannot predict myself what would happen. Somewhere along the line... Britian or Germany might strike each other. With the Allies losing their campaign in Africa, even more resources will be raking their way toward Germany. It would only be a matter of time.

Towards the end of the war... it was the American and Russian war effort that made the difference.

True the Russians would have easily won a conventional war without US involvement, but I think the French and British nukes would have left Moscow and many other Russian cities a wasteland.

If you are about say that the US gave nukes to France and Britain (debatabble), remember where the Russians stole their nuke technology from....

Nuclear Weapons are weapons of politics, not war.

The United States spent billions on economic rival to Eastern European countries, so that they would not fall prey to rapid Communist expansion. Now, someones probably going to say "BUT YOU AMERICANS ONLY MAKE COMMUNISM LOOK EVIL". I use the word Communism loosely, because in reality the Soviet Union was more like a totalitarian state. It also kept many countries already bad economies in an economic gridlock... the two sides of the Berlin Wall were prime examples.

It might be worth remembering that if the Americans had not entered the war until a few years later (say 1944), they would have bombing raids and V3s raining down on Washington and New York in 1946.

Berlin and Rome don't have much of a ring as Hiroshima and Nagasaki, do they?

[Oligarf]

Originally posted by Admiral Stukov
Sure we may have pushed Indians off their land (despite popular belief, we didn't massacre them... European diseases did), but around the same time Britain was busy annihilating the China because China wouldn't buy Opium.

We are not arguing about whether America is civilized or not, OK, don't take the options of the poll that serious. This argument about Indians came up as someone tried to argue that America was more civilized than Europe, it wasn't an argument to leave America out, there have been others for that point.

Still could someone explain we why a nation we can't imagine to have had chariots or whatsoever is put in the game this way. In a SCHISM act alright, but this way round, it's just nonsense.

[Sünert]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


I have to disagree. The current German democracy is heavily influenced by the American model, especially in its federal nature.

Read up on your history, the FRG is federal because of the fact that throughout our history the "central government" was weak compared to the "governments" of the "federal states".
Even the second empire and the weimar rebpulic were federal states.

The Weimar Republic was never very popular in Germany and was not much more than a gap filler between the Hohenzollern monarchy and the Nazis. To not give America credit for the current German government is to ignore history.

Our Grundgesetz ( basic law, our constituion) is more the result of learning of the mistakes of the weimar republic and the 3rd Reich then from the americans.

Regarding the question of "from when on was germany a state/nation/... " I will only say that the full name of the holy roman empire was holy roman empire of german nations, that further more at different times ( and even same time ) there were different opinions about what germany is, wich is one of th reason why it is so difficult to decide upon it. Compared with france or great britian the german central power ( the elected emperor ) was at any time weak and more depended on the personal cloud of the emperor then anything else and germany itself were splitted in a dozen to a hundred states.
Our way to a national state was twisted ( thats the reason why our national anthem has "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" Unity and Justice/laws and freedom in it ).

And regarding prussia, since the 7 years war and the 3rd division of poland prussia was one of the great powers of europe, prussia at this time consisted of northern germany and what today is poland ( you have to recognized that after the 2. WW poland was not restored in it's borders of 17xx but rather moved west. )

[Fresno]

Stukov, your last post made clear you are simply not willing to understand what I'm saying. Fine with me, but don't expect me to take your posts too seriously from now on.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Oligarf


We are not arguing about whether America is civilized or not, OK, don't take the options of the poll that serious. This argument about Indians came up as someone tried to argue that America was more civilized than Europe, it wasn't an argument to leave America out, there have been others for that point.

Still could someone explain we why a nation we can't imagine to have had chariots or whatsoever is put in the game this way. In a SCHISM act alright, but this way round, it's just nonsense.

Absolutely.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Admiral Stukov
Nuclear Weapons are weapons of politics, not war.

If the heartland of any nuclear power were invaded, they would be used.

[Fresno]

Let's just see what India and Pakistan are going to do... Although I don't think they ever would be so stupid they would use them.

[Oligarf]

Ok here's my plan to give this thread a second chance, quit critizing America, just give intelligent arguments on the subject: America in or out. Or else leave this place.

[Sünert]

Originally posted by Oligarf
Ok here's my plan to give this thread a second chance, quit critizing America, just give intelligent arguments on the subject: America in or out. Or else leave this place.

We probaly should first lay down criterias.

Impact on worldpolitics:
in

age:
out

cultural diversity:
in

So 2:1, America is in.

PS.
Reading all this america is best/ is not crap,
should I kill myself because I'm a german ?

[Fresno]

Age is a valid reason, so that's the argument why I'll stay at this thread.

[Oligarf]

Out:
They are nothing more than European colonist.

Out:
I doubt if you can talk about cultural diversity, I doubt if you can still talk about an American culture, that is so distinct that it is an argument to let them in.

2-3
OUT after the second half

[Fresno]

Out: too young
In: Superpower
Out: Just a colony

Cultural diversity doesn't count, that's nothing but different civs existing in one nation; I don't see how such a thing affects the value of the nation itself as an independent civ.

[muppet]

How do you play without America in the game?

Age: IN
-- It may be silly to imagine American swordsmen, at 4,000BC, but it is equally silly to imagine the French Manhattan Project in 1900AD, or German warriors at 4,000BC.

Colony Status: IN
--Britain was originally settled by colonists from civilized continental Europe as well.

Culture: IN
Super Bowl, World Series, US Supreme Court, MIT, Harvard.
-- Culture refers to the way of life, fundamental values etc. specific to a people and place. Unfair to say America has no equivalent to temples, ancient wonders or historic educational institutes, because modern culture is simply not the same as ancient culture. Religion is much more a way of ancient life than modern life. US common law stopped referring to British legal precedent a long time ago.

History: IN
True. It is short lived. But it is full of quality -cough-. What I mean to say is qualitative analysis is maybe more important than quantitative analysis. And America certainly has a "history" than can be qualitatively analyzed, even if there is less of it to analyze.

Gameplay: IN
Don't you think it would be less thrilling to play the modern era without an American civ? I would miss all the American cities during the modern era. The modern and industrial ages just wouldn't be the same if I never saw an American unit or America at war sometime.

[Dauphin]

Colony Status: IN
--Britain was originally settled by colonists from civilized continental Europe as well

The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes were no more civilised than the tribes already in the British isles.

Gameplay: IN
Don't you think it would be less thrilling to play the modern era without an American civ? I would miss all the American cities during the modern era. The modern and industrial ages just wouldn't be the same if I never saw an American unit or America at war sometime.

That is where the Schism idea comes in!

[Admiral Stukov]

Originally posted by Fresno
Stukov, your last post made clear you are simply not willing to understand what I'm saying. Fine with me, but don't expect me to take your posts too seriously from now on.

The last ditch forum tactic of a debate... bail out while putting words in your opponents mouths to justify the retreat.

Anyways... about Nuclear Weapons. Both the Soviets and the Americans knew and believed that a nuclear holocaust would eventually destroy civilization. Nuclear Weapons were used as a standoff tool... as a weapon to say "If you attack me, you get nuked". Of course, both countries knew that if they were attacked, they would counter with regular military.

The governments of the world may not be perfect, but they certainly know better than to destroy civilization. This is the same as Pakistan and India... it's seriously doubtful they are going to use nuclear weapons... both countries understand what the aftermath will bring.

American technological advancement, as well as the economic revival of parts of European, helped ensure that the red banner would never stretch past East Germany (Unless you count Cuba, lol). Even the Nuclear Standoff is justified... if there were no nukes, then its quite possible that WW3 (As in, another full scale war fought NOT with nuclear weaponry) would have happened during the periods of aggression between the two superpowers. The United States supplied England and France with nuclear weapons so that strikes/counterstrikes on Russia could be made more quickly. Of course, then came the Nuclear Submarine...



Now, about America-

IN:
Modern Superpower
Modern Cultural Influences*
Worldwide Economic Dominance
Achieved Important Scientific Goals

OUT:
Um... well... I can't really say colony since Civilizations like Japan and England were colonies.


*-Now, there was, and still is, a debate on American culture. Right now, if you like the Simpsons, wear Blue Jeans, communicate on the internet, like the Whopper, or have watched a Hollywood movie, you've just experienced part of the American culture. This is because America's culture is different than others... its more modern focused. To say America has no culture is incorrect... its mostly a blend of other cultures, as well as our unique modern one. There is no denial to that.

Simply because a country is ethnically diverse doesn't mean it has no culture... look at Russia and India. Hell, those two nations would make MUCH better allies than, say, England, France, or Israel, simply because America/Russia/India have ALOT in common in terms of ethnic diversity, mideast problems, ect.

[muppet]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin

Quote:

Colony Status: IN --Britain was originally settled by colonists from civilized continental Europe as well

The Angles, Saxons, and Jutes were no more civilised than the tribes already in the British isles.

Quote:

Gameplay: IN Don't you think it would be less thrilling to play the modern era without an American civ? I would miss all the American cities during the modern era. The modern and industrial ages just wouldn't be the same if I never saw an American unit or America at war sometime.

That is where the Schism idea comes in!

I don't understand. Is it a prerequisite that a colony must displace an equally or more advanced civilization in order to later qualify to become a culturally distinct political entity.

Application of the Schism concept sounds great! Can someone provide that dates for when Britain, France, Germany, and Russia became a political or culturally distinct body?

1. The game might be a little boring before research of the immaculate conception.

2. The game might be over before any of the American or European civs enter the game.

[Sünert]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by muppet


I don't understand. Is it a prerequisite that a colony must displace an equally or more advanced civilization in order to later qualify to become a culturally distinct political entity.

Application of the Schism concept sounds great! Can someone provide that dates for when Britain, France, Germany, and Russia became a political or culturally distinct body?
[Quote]

France and Germany shortly after Karl the great has dieed, would be around 800 ad, Britain mhm I would go after the unification of england, that would be IIRC around the same time, Russia mhm don't have an idea memory is sektchy.

1. The game might be a little boring before research of the immaculate conception.

[Language breakdown]
Sorry What ?

2. The game might be over before any of the American or European civs enter the game.

Mhm don't think so, prob is with civ there is no tech backlash when a civ gets nearly eradicated ( there goes the middleages ) and new civs doesn't come to live or break free from others ( there goes the independence war ) beside it is only a game, and it all depends what do you take as improtant, age, impact,...

[Dauphin]

Of course, both countries knew that if they were attacked, they would counter with regular military.

If Russian troops were bearing down on Paris and London you think that the Brits and French would not respond with nukes? Of course they would.

[Sünert]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


If Russian troops were bearing down on Paris and London you think that the Brits and French would not respond with nukes? Of course they would.

*jingo mode on*
Impossible scenario, you forget the germany army
*jingo mode off*