America isn't old enough to be in Civ3

[KrazyHorse]

Nope. I just have come to the conclusion that despite whatever "morals" I make up for myself, I think I would be capable of mass murder if sufficiently motivated (don't worry; personal gain probably wouldn't be part of it), and I think this might class me as a sociopath. Oh well.

See you in your sleep, GP...

p.s.: I also think that I'd make a damn fine dictator, and that worries me sometimes.

[oriel94]

Hi guys, this is my first post to Aployton.

This Aussie thinks the Americans should be a civ in Civ3 because:

a) They (or some of them) invented the game - which is fairly civilized in itself;

b) They (Al Gore not included) invented the internet;

c) They are the least taxed, most self-governing, and most free country in the world;

d) They are almost the only country in the world not trying to socialise themselves to death;

e) The gave us "The Simpsons".

Although they are essentially an off-shoot of European/West European/Anglo-Celtic civilization, they have since 1607 (the English colony at Jamestown) acquired sufficient distinguishing characteristics to warrant recognition as a separate but closely related civilization.

America plays Rome to Britain's Greece. That is, the Americans adopted, absorbed and adapted Britain's cultural and political greatness, and then projected that greatness onto the global stage after Britain's relative decline. France, Spain et al had no similarly potent offspring.

The Americans sometimes irritate me, in the same way that my over-achieving brother sometimes irritates me. But I still want him in the family.

My only gripe is that Civ3 appears to lump the Americans into the same cultural group as the Aztecs and the Iroquois. That just seems bizarre. I hope the editor will allow me to fix that and to switch their cultural affinity to European.

[Th0mas]

Originally posted by oriel94
The Americans sometimes irritate me, in the same way that my over-achieving brother sometimes irritates me. But I still want him in the family....

.. a particularly boastful, over-achieving brother, who has started to believe his own propaganda...

hmmm...that's probably being a little harsh

Seriously though, I may not agree with his exact statements, but I think Oriel has a good point in essence. Basically the American Nation is the powerhouse of the current time, although there has been some argument regarding Culture vs Nation, what is important is what the players can relate to.
I don't mean just American players - I can't relate to Anglosaxon or Hispanic ...Give me French, German, English, American any day

[Fresno]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I also think that I'd make a damn fine dictator, and that worries me sometimes.

Did you ever play Tropico, KrazyHorse? If you didn't, try www.poptop.com.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by oriel94
America plays Rome to Britain's Greece. That is, the Americans adopted, absorbed and adapted Britain's cultural and political greatness, and then projected that greatness onto the global stage after Britain's relative decline.

I love that analogy. Great post, Oriel.

[oriel94]

Drake,

I wish I could claim credit for it. But the idea was Harold Macmillan's, British Prime Minister 1957-1963.

[Grandpa Troll]

I am darn proud to be an AMERICAN and as part of the GREATEST NATION on God's Earth, I speak out of experience as a 42 year old Male, that we EARNED the right to be here, seeing how we take in castaways,dregs, and the desperate-to-be-free of the World!

Who anti's up the most in a World conflict involving NATO?..America the Beautiful does, not solely, but more shares are antied up, I know, I have been there being an Army Vet.

THAT AND THE FACT we built and marketed the wonderfully entertaining CIVIII..thats my $0.02 worth.

As my Uncle Walter Cronkite sez..."And that's the way it is...."


In Jesus Name

Brother Bruce

[oriel94]

ummm, .... I'm still pro-American, and still think America should be a 'civ', even after reading Troll's contribution.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by oriel94
ummm, .... I'm still pro-American, and still think America should be a 'civ', even after reading Troll's contribution.

Another great post. I just hope, for your sake, that a British PM didn't say it first....

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by oriel94
ummm, .... I'm still pro-American, and still think America should be a 'civ', even after reading Troll's contribution.

So I touched a nerve ..eh???..so sorry..I am sure you feel Australia is the best country on earth..as in deed you should..being from Australia..so 4-give me if I stepped on yer toes..or anything else..ok?..I am just Proud 2 B an AMERICAN..and dont mind sharing that view..and I didn't lie..or bash..or attack anyone with anything I said..only stated what is FACT..and HISTORY..so I am simply [?????????] P-U-Z-Z-L-E-D why you would be finding my post contrary????



In Jesus Name

Brother Bruce

[oriel94]

Not contrary at all.

There is a cultural-civilizational bloc which consists of the USA, the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (about 415 million people). It doesn't have a name, but I call it the 'Anglosphere' for want of a better one. It is the zone in which thrives (i) the English language, (ii) English-derived values of political democracy and economic freedom, and (iii) instinctive rejection of extremism. It is an extension of European civilization, but much more attached to freedom and moderation than the rest of European civilization which has too frequently succumbed to fascism, communism, violent nationalism and various strands of socialism.

This moderation is not cowardice. It is very slow to anger but terrible, and unbeatable, once aroused.

Sir Winston Churchill was probably the single greatest figure in the history of the Anglosphere, but there is a lot of strong competition for that title. He was Britain's greatest PM, but had an American mother and was equally at home on both sides of the Atlantic. He embodied all of the Anglosphere's strengths and weaknesses. He believed in the Anglosphere's essential unity, and wrote the massive and moving "History of the English Speaking People".

Winston would have offered Troll a big fat cigar and a double scotch, before slapping him on the back and asking his advice on ‘how to tackle those bounders in Afghanistan’. And he would have listened and taken notes, and factored it all in. He had style.
And more importantly, he had substance. We need his kind again, and we have a habit of producing it when needed.

[aaglo]

IMHO, age has nothing to do with the qualification for the game....

[Sun Zi 36]

I left this thread like a month ago and was shocked that this post is still here. Don't get it wrong though, wasnt surprised bcos of the length of the discussion. I was shocked that ppl could still talk about the same thing and argue over it for a month when it wasn't even the real issue. The question is about civilisation, not nation.

I accept with all my good faith that America is the greatest NATION. Whether you want to describe it as greatest, holiest, best, godly watever i don't care. That's not even the issue. Please, someone tell me, what's that got to do with the term civilisation?

Civilisation is defined by culture, not political borders. That's why the borders in civ3 expands as culture expands. People who share similar cultural aspects will be classified to be in the same cultural group and thus the same civilisation. This means a culture have to be substantially UNIQUE to be classified as a different civilisation. And this is where the real issue lies. Whether there is a unique culture in America that is not shared by other parts of the world. You may like to read my previous posts for my opinion on it.

What 90% of u are arguing here is NOT even the achievements of the civ or the greatness of the CULTURE, which in my opinion comes after u defined the civ. Many of u are arguing about achievements of the NATION, which is a completely different thing.

By what u people are arguing, i could say that people in California and people in New York each deserves to be in as a civ, bcos they each are more important than the Zulus and the Aztecs.

This comes down to an argument made by oriel94:

America plays Rome to Britain's Greece. That is, the Americans adopted, absorbed and adapted Britain's cultural and political greatness, and then projected that greatness onto the global stage after Britain's relative decline.

I disagree with this statement. One, because there's more difference between Rome and Greece than between Britain and America. Two, the fact is that Britain's decline is too recent for the majority Americans to transform much of their culture to be different from Britain. Three, Ancient Greek culture virtually vanished in Greece but not for Britain, which means America and Britain can continue to influence each other and remain as the same cultural group.

[Sun Zi 36]

"There is a cultural-civilizational bloc which consists of the USA, the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (about 415 million people). It doesn't have a name, but I call it the 'Anglosphere' for want of a better one. It is the zone in which thrives (i) the English language, (ii) English-derived values of political democracy and economic freedom, and (iii) instinctive rejection of extremism. It is an extension of European civilization, but much more attached to freedom and moderation than the rest of European civilization which has too frequently succumbed to fascism, communism, violent nationalism and various strands of socialism."

I agree with u on this one. But how about just calling it conservative? And dont forget McCarthyism is quite extreme nationalism too.

The fact that u think the "Anglosphere" is a cultural-civilisational bloc already means that they should be considered as one civilisation, not two. I prefer to call it Anglo-Saxon which is the most common.

[oriel94]

In reply to Sun Zi, one big point and two much smaller ones:

I accept, for the most part, Sun Zi's commentary on my posts. He is right about the relative strengths and influences of the US and British branches of the Anglosphere. The Greece-Rome metaphor was just that, a metaphor intended to make a colourful illustration. On Sun Zi's more accurate account Britain remains in a much better position to influence its civilizational partner than Greece was. (But the Americans still have a problem with spotting irony).

One relatively minor point of difference. I think that equating 'McCartyhyism' with the truly profound and far-reaching ideological disorders of continental Europe is a very substantial exaggeration. That the antics of Senator McCarthy can seem so shocking to us in the Anglosphere simply demonstrates how different and more moderate/conservative our standards are from the related civilization/s of continental Europe. Be it also recalled that Senator McCarthy's ludicrous campaign collapsed under the weight of its own absurdities precisely because it crossed the boundary into hysteria in a cultural climate where extremism has little oxygen. Similarly Britain and the US have occasionally been rocked by political and economic scandals which, if they had occurred in Europe, would hardly raise an eyebrow.

An even more minor point. I call it the Anglosphere because it's more accurate. It simply signifies those countries where English is spoken and whose civilizational/cultural values are closely *derived* from the Anglo-Saxon world. To suggest that USA-England-Scotland-Wales-Canada-Australia-New Zealand (and maybe Ireland??) are an undifferentiated Anglo-Saxon unity is stretching things. I concede, however, that 'Anglosphere' sounds odd. I just can't think of a better, and short, handle. Maybe Churchill's 'The English Speaking Peoples' would be better, but it's a bit cumbersome. 'The Empire' might also work, but it sounds antiquated and the US actually fought a war to leave it.

I agree that the Americans and the English/British in Civ3 would have been more accurately rendered as a 'single civilization'. But would that have made for a more enjoyable game? I think not.

[Arent]

oriel94:

Sun Zi meant your rude comment about "fascism, communism, violent nationalism..." regarding Europe with his "call it just conservative".
God, did you really not waste a thought you could offend someone!?
You really seem to believe this "anglosphere"
contains the better part of mankind! (Btw. this reminds me on japanese "welfare sphere")
This is *exactly* the seed of "fascism, ..., violent nationalism" et cetera which you despise so much.
European countries are more conservative while Usa is more liberal.


Troll:

You sound more like a child of about 14.
Guess some kids need this to play cool next time they see a girl.

Arent

[Fresno]

I agree completely with you, Arent.

This is the second time in this thread a non-European accuses the Europeans (or at least the 'continental' ones) of extremism/racism. I wonder why, since many western-european governments are, indeed, more progressive as the American government.

And, Oriel94, what about your country and asylum-seekers? That is hardly an example of "values of political democracy and economic freedom," is it? Talking about cruel politics...

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Arent
oriel94:

Sun Zi meant your rude comment about "fascism, communism, violent nationalism..." regarding Europe with his "call it just conservative".
God, did you really not waste a thought you could offend someone!?
You really seem to believe this "anglosphere"
contains the better part of mankind! (Btw. this reminds me on japanese "welfare sphere")
This is *exactly* the seed of "fascism, ..., violent nationalism" et cetera which you despise so much.
European countries are more conservative while Usa is more liberal.


Troll:

You sound more like a child of about 14.
Guess some kids need this to play cool next time they see a girl.

Arent

Well, I am not 14 and yes I was just excercising my God given rights to express MY BELIEF and seems you aren't very keen on picking up a sarcastic parody quip, I said America was the best country to invoke EXACTLY the response that the repliers have emmitted, that we as a country are far from perffect and have soo many problems and I am proud to be an American citizen and well, thats it in a nutshell, and I dint slam anyone else's country, merely boasted pride in mine and afterall, this is a game we are talking about, not arguements from a drunken stupor where we takle it out back and whoop one another or sanction one another through sensorship of one nature or another....~sigh~...My humbless apologies for upsetting some thin skinned foreigners, and if you look at my ORIGINAL post I slammed no one and only took up for my country THE UNITED STATE of AMERICA, but I have ahunch I should have looked up each and every country and patted them on the back and smoked a cigar and broke bread with them sharing exploits of how they too have a great tradition of leading the world with financing and military support!

Ok..My bad...I thank all countries and all nations for the complete and utmost contribution to world events before, present and the near future...

Ok..that better sweetheart????


Troll

[Arent]

You havn't read some of the posts around here.
In the civfanatics forums there's a thread of about 300 posts started by a certain brandon claiming even more hilarious stuff than you did.
And he meant this absolutely serious.

Arent

[August Borms]

to the one opn the flam
boy yo temper, just toss that ham in ther frying pan
like spam
when i come in slam
damn, i feel like the son of sam
dont make me wreck sh1t hectic
blablabla going like like genreral eletric
aaaaaand the lights are lbinking
i'm thinking
it's all over when i go out drinking
oooh, making my mind slow
thats why i don't **** with the big 4-O
bro, i got to maintain
cuz a nigga like me is going insane !!

insane in the membrane!!
insane in the brane!
!
insane in the membrena!
ijnsane in ther brain !

insane in the membrane!
ijnsane in ther brain !
plenty insane!
fgot no brain!

insane in the membrane!
ijnsane in ther brain !pl

do my sh1t undzercover,
now it's time time for da blubber
blabbla
to watch thart belly get fat
a fat boy on a diet, dont try it,
ill jacvk your ass like a looter in a riot
like a sulmo slamming that ass,
kleavin yo face in the grass
you know, i don't take a dulo
lifghtly
punk just jealous cuz they cant utwritze me
kick that styl, wicked, wild,
happy face nigga never seen mer smile
rip that mainframe
i'll explain
cuz a niggaz like me is going insane!!ç

insane inthe mambrane!
insane in the brainè!

insane inthe membrane !
insane in the brain
planety insane,
got no brain!

insane inthe mebreanr
insane inth ebrain!!

cuz im loco!

gunshot me
like louis amrstrong
play the trumpet
hit the bong aznd break ya off sometghing soon
gottz get my props, cops
truying to get my crops
these pifgqs waann blow my house down
head undergroun to netct x town
they get mad when they come to fderange myp ath
thgey get mad when theuycome to raid lmy path
yes im the pirate, pilort of this ship
while im out in the night blue cad
with the ultraviolent dreamn, hide from the red lifgt beam

now do you bleibve in da unseen
look,,; but dont make your esyes green,
cuz a nigga like me is going insane!

insane inthe membrane, insane in the brain
insane in ther menbrande
insane in the brain

plenty insane, got niobrain!
insane in the membrane, inane in the brain

i think im going crazzy........................

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Arent
You havn't read some of the posts around here.
In the civfanatics forums there's a thread of about 300 posts started by a certain brandon claiming even more hilarious stuff than you did.
And he meant this absolutely serious.

Arent

Ok my friend

Then a new aquaintence I have.

I BTW, have found the most success in CIVIII, not with my native Americans, but with the Glorious French!

I am in a game and doing quite well and am enjoying the advantages of the French!

Yours in Civin

Troll

[oriel94]

Oh dear, a bunch of Europeans are upset by some comments they think are hurtful. Instead of repying at length, could I just invite those sensitive souls to do two things: (1) actually read my posts a bit more carefully and thoughtfully, (2) reflect upon what European history might have been like without the Anglosphere. I won't labour the second point, I'm sure you can sort it out.

Before you excitedly rush back with a catalogue of all the great cultural achievements of Italy, France etc, I am aware of them. I am not trying to make a point about some kind of greatness in the realm of high culture. I am not trying to detract from Europe's real and hugely impressive achievements. When it comes to high art, architecture, opera etc, continental Europe has a stellar lead.

But when it comes to resisting the siren calls of political lunacy, almost all of continental Europe has proved itself to be deficient. Most continental countries have been host to extremist regimes of the left or right, or to mass parties of the extreme left or right (there are a few exceptions, please don't bombard us with an account of the glories of Scandinavian or Dutch political history). The whole Anglosphere has been immune. Almost the only country in Europe that has an unbroken history of democracy going back to the 19th century is Britain. The only continental countries who can claim something similar (Switzerland and Sweden) can do so only because they stood aloof from WWII and co-operated with Nazi Germany (in Sweden's case, most egregiously and shamefully, and while the centre-left was in power).

Even now, not trusting themselves with freedom, they have embraced a European Union which takes enormous powers away from the European electorates and vests them in the EU bureaucracy and a legislature which meets in complete secrecy (the Commission and the Council). This transfer of power from the people is permanent - don't listen to the blandishments of the Eurocrats who talk about 'constructing a people's Europe'. We have heard that language before in Europe. All those silk-suited, civilized, centre-left Europoliticians and Eurocrats have no intention of restoring any democracy to you. They don't trust you with real political power. And maybe they are right!

IMHO, Britain should leave the EU. They are not at home there.

Anyone can see that the English speaking countries form a cultural-civilizational group distinct from, albeit related to, the European civilization/s. If they are different, there must be something that makes them so. Because human beings are fallen and imperfect, some of those things will be vices. But because human beings are also made by God (sorry to bring him up, Euros), some of those things will be virtuous. The world is a richer place for this.

[molly bloom]

A moderate British politician. Can you guess who?

Re:1919 miners' strike in Glasgow, with troops and tanks deployed to break the strike:

"This is the time to beat them.There is bound to be a fight. The English propertied classes are not going to take it lying down."

then:

"..the Labour Party ...are a danger to society', 'unfit to govern the country', 'they had made themselves into a class party, led by class leaders and fighting the balance of class interests in predominance over all other interests."

Unlike the propertied classes of course. And also:

"...the Bolsheviks are swarms of typhus bearing vermin."

" ...the Soviet Government...a tyrannic government of these Jewish Commissars."

" a worldwide communistic state under Jewish domination."

"...the Bolsheviks...these Semitic conspirators...cold Semitic internationalists."

and : "The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks consitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate...I feel that the source from which the steam of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed."




The eminently reasonable Winston Churchill.

[Grandpa Troll]

Wow..I am just glad people got off my back..heh heh heh..but seriously, all this is about a game..A GAME folks. and with the editor, you can call any civ anything that you want to. I have somewhat of a bit of twisted humor, so I made a scenario revolving around redneck southern vs Carperbagging Yankees, me I'm a Yankee, married to a sweet southern belle, two children, ones a deputy sherriff, ones in P.A. School.

I am just having fun, like my man just said, CIVIII is about "WHAT-IF's"..and What if a Frog had wings?...maybe then it wouldnt bump its but when it jumps off!!!

Seriously, folks I implore you, go play, re-write history and enjoy...BTW check out the French, they are a pretty neat Civ in the game


Yours in Civin

Troll

[Sun Zi 36]

OK, for once everyone seems to be actually agreeing US, Britain, etc or (Angloshere) should be under one civ. And someone actually pointed out the real issue by outlining the difference between continental Europe and Angloshere culture. On the point of whether it would be fun, I see nothing wrong with playing the Anglo-Saxons representing both America and England. I think it would be more fun, as I don't want to see England and America go to war as separate civs, which is highly unrealistic. Also, making the Anglo-Saxons come under the European group of civs is much more realistic than grouping the Americans with the Aztecs or the Iroquis.

This is off topic, but since there's consensus in the topic at the moment, i'll make some comments. I agree that England should be out of the EU. DeGaulle was right when he twice rejected UK entry into EU. Considering why Britain "has an unbroken history of democracy going back to the 19th century". This is due to the conservative British class society. Britain wasn't even really a democracy until after WWI. Only 3/5 males had the right to vote before WWI, and this is based on property. It may be correct that the Anglo-Saxon world is more immune to extreme political ideals. But it is also correct that the Anglo-Saxon world is more immune to progressive policies than continental Europe. Conservative political parties prevail in every nation in the Anglo-Saxon world. Republicans in US, Liberals in Australia, Conservatives in UK, etc. Ideals of equity and social justice is less prevalent in the Anglo-Saxon world.

I just get annoyed how ppl come up once in a while and say something like "this it just a game. forget it. America is already in anyway. u can edit it if u want." If u are not intereseted, just leave the discussion. But many ppl here are interested and wants to continue an informative discussion. Doesn't matter whether it's already in or not. The question is whether it SHOULD be in. Doesn't matter whether there are editing tools. The question is whether it SHOULD be in and should we edit it. It's not "just a game", it's a game we are interested in, a game which create issues we are interested in discussing.

[oriel94]

I agree with Sun Zi and with Troll. Civ is a game and should be enjoyed as a game (duh ... what else can you do with it?). At the same time, Civ really provokes many people to think hard about lots of really hard issues. That is part of its huge success, it sucks you in intellectually. It attracts many people who are interested in big historical and cultural questions (arcade games and simulators attract people interested in other things).

These forums serve many purposes. One of them is to allow people who are provoked by Civ to discuss their ideas with other people who are similarly provoked. I participate mainly because I enjoy hearing other views and seeing the reactions my own thoughts produce in others with similar interests.

It is all a game. Sometimes the most enjoyable games are the most serious ones, and sometimes it's playing strip twister.

[Arent]

Ok, point archived. The last posts were a lot more serious, were they?

Considering the "angloshpere": While there for sure are differences I would not go so far to classify this "anglosphere" as different civilisation. Perhaps in 50 or 100 years but not at this time.
Furthermore you have to see that there are perhaps even bigger differences between single european countries (and I mean not only political but also cultural).
There was a nice idea (a while ago) only to differentiate between 3 civilisations in civ3, namely asiatic, european and islam.

Considering EU: The european countries need to speak with one voice. Thus I am pro EU.

Arent

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Arent
Furthermore you have to see that there are perhaps even bigger differences between single european countries (and I mean not only political but also cultural).

Absolutely. Historically, France and the UK have more in common than France and Germany.

Considering EU: The european countries need to speak with one voice. Thus I am pro EU.

I agree. It is mainly because of the English and the French governments that the EU is still so divided. Only the governments of Germany, the Netherlands and some smaller countries seem willing to hand over parts of their power.

[Arent]

Originally posted by oriel94
Most continental countries have been host to ... the extreme left or right... The whole Anglosphere has been immune...

Oriel94: You know this is not true.
You continue to divide the world in black and white. People are - as you said - imperfect and thus make errors. There is no inborn "instinctive rejection" of extremism - not in your "anglosphere" and nowhere else. Right wing extremism is a big problem in Usa (I don't know about austalia).
Furthermore: The older a nation, the more you'll find positive and negative sides.

I am so serious about this cause I consider national pride - namely remembering the archivements of one's anchestors to strive for similar deeds and to work to benefit one's country - a good thing.
But I despise those guys who desperately want to prove themselves that their country is by far the best, has the best scientists, best military, is the coolest et cetera and then somehow feel like being the thoughest guy around.
Archiving something is just hard work and it will not come to you priceless no matter how "cool" your country may be.

Arent

[Arent]

Fresno: The netherlands actually gave up most of their votes - it is now population based - and were in favor of this reform.
Still I understand everyone who feels threatened - I don't like to give up my nationality either, but the different nations will continue to exist in the EU and will have tremendous influence on EU politics.

There is a quite strong opposition to EU in Germany. Perhaps even stronger than in France and Great Britain. They are not to blame. I can't bring myself to like this idea too much either. Give everyone a little time.

Arent